Originally posted by DestroyDestroyDestroy
reply to post by schuyler
The idea of "We" before "I" isn't a bad one.
That is what the cowhand tells the cattle as he is leading them into the slaughter house.
Brace Yourselves! Americans Aged 18-29 Have A More Favorable Response To Socialism Than To Capitali, page 2
reply posted on 4-11-2012 @ 05:58 PM by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by boymonkey74
In fairness.... Capitalism and Oligarchy aren't the same thing either....but we're still called Capitalist in the United States today and people still point to this nightmare to say Capitalism doesn't work. I haven't seen anything like real capitalism since somewhere in the latter years of Clinton....and it's gotten further and further away every year. Even that wasn't all that close anymore.
So.. This is to everyone who seems to love Socialism. I've heard so many say this same thing. 'We' that disagree "just don't get it" or "don't understand".
Okay, fair enough. Help people like me understand then. Point to the nation on Earth today where the system exists we should change ours to become more like. Which one should we look to for what has worked? I hope NO ONE is thinking we just strike out to uncharted waters and give it a 'whirl'. National destruction lay down that path of trial and error.
So..seriously.. Outside of Scandinavia (which I noted..works but would never work on a scale orders of magnitude beyond their small nations) which system today or even recent history is not just kinda better...but Superior to what America was before Bush got to us and Obama finished the job?
In fairness.... Capitalism and Oligarchy aren't the same thing either....but we're still called Capitalist in the United States today and people still point to this nightmare to say Capitalism doesn't work. I haven't seen anything like real capitalism since somewhere in the latter years of Clinton....and it's gotten further and further away every year. Even that wasn't all that close anymore.
So.. This is to everyone who seems to love Socialism. I've heard so many say this same thing. 'We' that disagree "just don't get it" or "don't understand".
Okay, fair enough. Help people like me understand then. Point to the nation on Earth today where the system exists we should change ours to become more like. Which one should we look to for what has worked? I hope NO ONE is thinking we just strike out to uncharted waters and give it a 'whirl'. National destruction lay down that path of trial and error.
So..seriously.. Outside of Scandinavia (which I noted..works but would never work on a scale orders of magnitude beyond their small nations) which system today or even recent history is not just kinda better...but Superior to what America was before Bush got to us and Obama finished the job?
reply posted on 4-11-2012 @ 06:03 PM by BobbyTarass
Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by ModernAcademia
* Side Note
Scandinavian socialism works wonderfully, apparently. Those people love it, so I hear. I've also heard their politicians freely admit that what works beautifully for a nation their size and of like minded people (well..used to be) would never work for a nation of 330 million who have about 50 million different concepts of how things should work. I happen to believe they're 100% right, too.
That's the most important point to make, socialism comes in different forms and a lot of people seem to mistake USSR communism (everything has to be shared, nobody should be above others, the government is in charge of everything, etc.) and nowadays european socialism.
The latter mix up a liberal view of the economy & market and basic social rights (healthcare, welfare, unions, etc.). I'd also say that most socialists countries don't have a "death sentence" policy.
reply posted on 4-11-2012 @ 06:05 PM by links234
reply to post by Wrabbit2000
I've heard this argument before so I'll ask; what if the exact same systems were implemented in all 50 states? Would that not be small scale just as it is in Scandinavia...if that works, then why not implement similiar systems nationwide, relegating appropriate powers to the states, strengthening unions...or regulations to the point that unions aren't even needed?
Why do we say, 'that only works if X, Y, Z?' There are plenty of people that live in these 'socialist' nations that agree with some of your viewpoints, but hardly any of them would sacrifice their social safety nets in favor of what we have.
I've heard this argument before so I'll ask; what if the exact same systems were implemented in all 50 states? Would that not be small scale just as it is in Scandinavia...if that works, then why not implement similiar systems nationwide, relegating appropriate powers to the states, strengthening unions...or regulations to the point that unions aren't even needed?
Why do we say, 'that only works if X, Y, Z?' There are plenty of people that live in these 'socialist' nations that agree with some of your viewpoints, but hardly any of them would sacrifice their social safety nets in favor of what we have.
reply posted on 4-11-2012 @ 06:13 PM by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by links234
Which of those systems your talking about would you want to see implemented and how would that go about being done in the modern America? I know these systems from reading about them.....studying them...then passing go/no-go tests based on that. I'm wondering if you know them that well. You answered my question with a question and cited precisely those nations I already noted their own politicians have said in past years carry a system not likely to work in nations far different from their own.
So.. Okay, if we're going to make a square peg fit down a round hole. I'd like to hear your thoughts on how the Corptocracy/Oligarchy we currently live under transitions to that of Northern European Socialism? It doesn't 'just happen'...so you've thought about this some, right?
* In terms of European Socialism as a whole?? Our system may be failing (and it is) but go ask Spain, Greece, Portugal, Italy and Germany how that E.U. and Euro-Socialist system is working out? All but Germany are near or beyond destroyed by it right now with the E.U. being all that holds them up now at all. Germany is in the position of being looked to as a savior they are NOT going to be. This is the last system on Earth I'd ever want to model ourselves after, given how we are watching it fall to pieces right along side our own. Double Down on Failure?
Which of those systems your talking about would you want to see implemented and how would that go about being done in the modern America? I know these systems from reading about them.....studying them...then passing go/no-go tests based on that. I'm wondering if you know them that well. You answered my question with a question and cited precisely those nations I already noted their own politicians have said in past years carry a system not likely to work in nations far different from their own.
So.. Okay, if we're going to make a square peg fit down a round hole. I'd like to hear your thoughts on how the Corptocracy/Oligarchy we currently live under transitions to that of Northern European Socialism? It doesn't 'just happen'...so you've thought about this some, right?
* In terms of European Socialism as a whole?? Our system may be failing (and it is) but go ask Spain, Greece, Portugal, Italy and Germany how that E.U. and Euro-Socialist system is working out? All but Germany are near or beyond destroyed by it right now with the E.U. being all that holds them up now at all. Germany is in the position of being looked to as a savior they are NOT going to be. This is the last system on Earth I'd ever want to model ourselves after, given how we are watching it fall to pieces right along side our own. Double Down on Failure?
reply posted on 4-11-2012 @ 06:14 PM by links234
reply to post by pierregustavetoutant
It is the fault of rich people! Did the coal miners in West Virginia and the steel workers in Pennsylvania fire themselves? Did the school teachers and firefighters spend all their retirement money on credit default swaps?
Tell me...how is that the stock market can be doing so well, that corporations can see higher and higher profits, that oil companies can see record revenues all while the unemployment rate barely creeps along? Is this the fault of the single mother of five on food stamps? Or is it the 2% tax rate that Apple pays...on top of the multi-billions they make on Chinese workers making $1.50 an hour?
No nation, ever in the history of the world, has succeeded in a 'me, myself, and I' mindset.
It is the fault of rich people! Did the coal miners in West Virginia and the steel workers in Pennsylvania fire themselves? Did the school teachers and firefighters spend all their retirement money on credit default swaps?
Tell me...how is that the stock market can be doing so well, that corporations can see higher and higher profits, that oil companies can see record revenues all while the unemployment rate barely creeps along? Is this the fault of the single mother of five on food stamps? Or is it the 2% tax rate that Apple pays...on top of the multi-billions they make on Chinese workers making $1.50 an hour?
No nation, ever in the history of the world, has succeeded in a 'me, myself, and I' mindset.
reply posted on 4-11-2012 @ 06:18 PM by BobbyTarass
Originally posted by ModernAcademia
Originally posted by boymonkey74
I wish people would try and understand socialism and communism are not the same thing...
2nd...
This is 2012
That's what most responses in this thread doesn't get
People say.. Don't you know what socialism is?
That's not the point
Today's youth have no idea or interest in what you are saying
They are for facades
So your points are moot
You don't know but think that "today's youth" doesn't so his points are moot ?
Why don't you try to shift your point of view for a moment, just the time to read something about what socialism is nowadays in most countries (en.wikipedia.org...) and then decide whether or not they are ignorant ?
Isn't that the wisest thing to do ?
reply posted on 4-11-2012 @ 06:19 PM by links234
reply to post by Wrabbit2000
You want to compare the EU and the US then ask which one decided on austerity across the board? Which one did just the opposite?
Which one is seeing their economy stagnate and falter while the other increases month after month?
You want to compare the EU and the US then ask which one decided on austerity across the board? Which one did just the opposite?
Which one is seeing their economy stagnate and falter while the other increases month after month?
reply posted on 4-11-2012 @ 06:21 PM by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by links234
Coal? Coal miners?? You really want to go there?
No, coal miner didn't fire themselves or get layed off by choice. It took that man following through on those statements and doing precisely what he said he'd do.......to so badly damage the Coal industry and those states that SO greatly depend on it. You don't even want to go into what post-election EPA planning looks like. This has been a nice 4 years for the Coal Miners.
By the way... You use the term Rich like it's profanity. Can you define that? I grossed over $200,000 a year when I owned my own truck. Was I rich? Farmers around here are sitting on millions in property, stock, animals and equipment taken together for family worth. it's not hard to accumulate. Are they rich? I hear that term..and it grates. badly. Rich is a term of class warfare, not describing a group of human beings. Not without definition anyway.
Coal? Coal miners?? You really want to go there?
No, coal miner didn't fire themselves or get layed off by choice. It took that man following through on those statements and doing precisely what he said he'd do.......to so badly damage the Coal industry and those states that SO greatly depend on it. You don't even want to go into what post-election EPA planning looks like. This has been a nice 4 years for the Coal Miners.
By the way... You use the term Rich like it's profanity. Can you define that? I grossed over $200,000 a year when I owned my own truck. Was I rich? Farmers around here are sitting on millions in property, stock, animals and equipment taken together for family worth. it's not hard to accumulate. Are they rich? I hear that term..and it grates. badly. Rich is a term of class warfare, not describing a group of human beings. Not without definition anyway.
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