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For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.

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posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 08:45 PM
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Originally posted by EnochWasRight
reply to post by Greatest I am
 




Thanks for all this but I did not see if you embrace the notion of human sacrifice or not or if you believe that to punish the innocent instead of the guilty is good justice or not.

Care to share?

Regards
DL


Sacrifice is giving something up for another. Since God gives life, he can take that life for the greater good of the individual. Humans sacrificing humans is yet another story. God will not sacrifice anyone that does not willingly participate in the act as a means to a greater end. God gives life back. In relation to humans sacrificing humans, we see another objective all together.

God gives and receives only. What he takes in death is given back in furtherance of life.

The thief takes and does not return. There is a difference here. I see that you are trying to trap me in a pretext. I simply outline the process for you and then show that the animal sacrifice was a symbol of the process we must suffer to get rid of our own beast. The entire process is a gift that is offered to us and not placed upon us. The Shepherd sheers the sheep that come by his voice. He goes after lost sheep but the sheep must sill stay to be sheered.

Have you ever seen a sheep that was not shorn? How can the wool be made white as snow if it is left on the sheep? How can the robe be given to the new creation unless the process is followed?



Thanks for all this but I did not see if you embrace the notion of human sacrifice or not or if you believe that to punish the innocent instead of the guilty is good justice or not.

Care to share?

P.S. Anyone who dances around a simple question like you are doing knows he is on the wrong moral foot or he would give a clear yes or no.

Regards
DL
edit on 4-11-2012 by Greatest I am because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 09:03 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 




Thanks for all this but I did not see if you embrace the notion of human sacrifice or not or if you believe that to punish the innocent instead of the guilty is good justice or not.

Care to share?

P.S. Anyone who dances around a simple question like you are doing knows he is on the wrong moral foot or he would give a clear yes or no.

Regards
DL


All pretext is based on twisted context. Paradox is created in such cases and I am simply showing you the proper context to your thoughts. What is a pretext? A reason given in justification of a course of action that is not the real reason. In this case, you equate mankind as innocent.

This is possibly based on a previous conversation you were having, but I will jump in anyway. We are veiled from a previous existence on a planet that is for fallen beings. Saying we are innocent denies God's goodness for allowing baptism as repentance. On this point you are inferring that you are above God. Pride does this. Most of those who deny God's goodness here will fall into this trap. There are few Atheists. In reality, there are many that do not agree with God.

For me to answer the question, I need your context and not a hidden pretext. Explain your own view and I can then clarify my answer in relation.

edit on 4-11-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 09:12 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


I said for no reason, it's ok to kill in self-defense but only if you have no other choice but to kill.



posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 09:18 PM
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reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


Where did you get the notion that salvation is through faith alone if not from the bible? I see you post a lot of stuff written by Paul, I wouldn't trust Paul's word too much. Remember, he was a Roman persecutor of early followers of Jesus. Romans were famous for attacking and then forcing the other side to join them.

Do you believe that the bible is infallible and without error? Do you believe it has never been tampered with?
edit on 4-11-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)
edit on 4-11-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 09:36 PM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


Where did you get the notion that salvation is through faith alone if not from the bible? I see you post a lot of stuff written by Paul, I wouldn't trust Paul's word too much. Remember, he was a Roman persecutor of early followers of Jesus. Romans were famous for attacking and then forcing the other side to join them.

Do you believe that the bible is infallible and without error? Do you believe it has never been tampered with?
edit on 4-11-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)
edit on 4-11-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)


It's hermetically sealed. There is no way to tamper with it. The word is not the outer shell but the inner meaning. This meaning is mirrored in all the parts that were cut when Nimrod was split by language. You can read it anywhere you wish. Linguistics aside, it's in your DNA and it's written in your heart. Ignore(ance) is ignoring what you already know. The Bible is a light and the light reveals what it hits. What it hits does not reveal the light.



posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 09:41 PM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


Where did you get the notion that salvation is through faith alone if not from the bible? I see you post a lot of stuff written by Paul, I wouldn't trust Paul's word too much. Remember, he was a Roman persecutor of early followers of Jesus. Romans were famous for attacking and then forcing the other side to join them.

Do you believe that the bible is infallible and without error? Do you believe it has never been tampered with?
edit on 4-11-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)
edit on 4-11-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)


Another way to see this is by imaging yourself withing the reflection. The Bible is read as a mirror when you see the outer words. It reveals what you see in yourself. This is why you can read it and engage the better part of yourself against the reflection. In reality, you are seeing yourself in opposite. If you get past the image, there is an actual hidden in the symbols. This is where the true word is located. If you are full of pride against God and have hatred for your brother, you will only see yourself looking back from that part of the reflection. You are the image of God and that image looks back at itself in opposite. If you think you are good, you will see God as the opposite. If you see yourself as you should, humility will reveal God.



posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 09:43 PM
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reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


Until you open up to the possibility that it's not infallible then you will never see. The bible is a book, books are written by the hands of men, men are prone to lying.

Where did you get the belief that the bible could never be edited? How can you be so sure that it hasn't been edited?



posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 09:47 PM
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reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


I do have humility and I don't have hatred for god. How could I hate myself?

How come the bible is infallible but the Koran isn't? Or do you believe it is infallible as well? They are both the word of god you know.



posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 10:27 PM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


Until you open up to the possibility that it's not infallible then you will never see. The bible is a book, books are written by the hands of men, men are prone to lying.

Where did you get the belief that the bible could never be edited? How can you be so sure that it hasn't been edited?


Because the truth is written in you already. Consider this:

POST AND THREAD BOTH

Look at what I said on the image. Why did Jesus say that he was one with the Father and that the Father was greater than Him? When you look at yourself in the image, which describes you best? You or the image? God can only be here in an image.

Genesis 1:27

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

Our desire is to anthropomorphize God into our own image. The same problem exists when God comes as a kinsman and we reject him.

John 1

9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

The image cannot describe the indescribable. We need assistance to see it and this is where humble faith comes in. The image in the mirror may be blurry, but the one casting the image can be see clearly. It's a process of crossing the bridge. Unless a person humbles themselves and allows God room to develop faith, we are lost in our pride. It's as I said before. You will see yourself in the mirror. We are the image of God. The point to it all is found in Paul's words:

1 Corinthians 13

1 Corinthians 13

11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

You should read about Paul here and make your decision: Paul and His Suffering

To accuse Paul, you would need to demonstrate the motive of a liar and all liars are easily seen. Paul defies this by squandering his freedom at the hands of the persecuting Jews and Romans alike. Even in front of Felix in Acts 24, Paul demonstrates his loyalty to Israel and not Rome. These people simply did not have the foresight to see what their words would become. To say that Paul had an agenda against Christ would be wholly innumerate. Paradox is only our own pretext and not the true context. Careful consideration of what is said must be rightly divided. Paul had the capacity to do this and was precisely the person God could use to accomplish this objective forward to our day and age. Can we fault Paul in relation to the Image of God in the material world? This could be as we are fallen creatures. Paul is yet the image of Christ as a Son of Mankind. Information entropy is one thing, but the true word hermetically sealed in symbol is yet another. For the larger picture, we get what Paul is saying and needn't nitpick over our own misplaced concreteness with the words. As the link I provide demonstrates, we first need to understand Paul and hold a Hebrew perspective to get why he was pushing the direction he was moving.

What truly matters is fulfilling the law and we are incapable. Christ did that for us, yet we must carry the cup as well. For instance, if you read the sermon on the mount, you may get the idea that we must do this ourselves to the letter. This would be a mistaken view. Jesus had to do that to the letter or we would not need his sacrifice as our own. Who could accomplish this. Yet, if you read Paul's words, you see that it's by faith and not works. YES!!!! Because Christ is the one one who could have done what we cannot. This was the point. It's the larger context that matters. Paul had it right.



posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 10:37 PM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by SpiritofEnoch
 


You'd be wrong to think my god isn't all-knowing. I may not know everything but everything that there is to know is known through us, through me, through you, through Jesus, through some alien living a billion miles away. The universe is all-knowing because everything that there is to know is within this universe.


John 8:58
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!"


We can all say "I am", no? What allows us to think that? Self-awareness. What allows us to have self-awareness? Consciousness.

"I am" god just as you and everyone else is god. Without consciousness you would not be just as you think that without god nothing would be.
edit on 4-11-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)


I am simply giving credit to the first I am. The one who gave us the ability to say "I am."



posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 10:39 PM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


I do have humility and I don't have hatred for god. How could I hate myself?

How come the bible is infallible but the Koran isn't? Or do you believe it is infallible as well? They are both the word of god you know.


I actually hold this view in a similar way. The Quran is a judgment against unbelief. Jesus is the messenger and his gospel message is referenced within. Even Rumi the Sufi acknowledges the message of love from Jesus. Here is where we see the problem. Muslims do not acknowledge Jesus or His message. The fruit they produce is hatred for Christians and their own brother Issac. When viewed in this light, God may have given them their document of judgment. It's harsh. On the other hand, they may be blinded like Israel until Jesus does what Joseph foreshadowed. Joseph wouldn't tell the brothers he was their own kinsman that was sold into slavery in Egypt until they brought the youngest brother of the 12 back to Egypt. When they did, Joseph told them who he was. What do you suspect all this foreshadowing leads to? If I am correct, then Israel and Issac will meet Jesus and realize their kinsman. When this happens, the problems between the two are solved and unity will lead to problems for the NWO. What do you think will happen to Babylon when the people unite to judge the moneychangers and high priests that have corrupted the Earth? Unity is the last thing the divider of mankind wants.

edit on 4-11-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 11:21 PM
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reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


12 disciples, 12 sons, 12 feasts, three kings/magi/astrologers, 12 constellations, Orion's belt. The three Mary's at the crucifixion (the three Mary's is what Latin Americans call Orion's Belt), turning water into wine, walking on water, feeding 5,000 people with 2 fish and 5 loaves of bread, these are all pagan symbolisms inserted into the story by the Romans.

Why was Christianity turned into the official religion of Rome? Because paganism was failing so in order to make the transition easier for others they inserted these pagan themes. I'm amazed how you can't see it, you seem like a very smart person, yet for some reason you fail to see the obvious.



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 12:07 AM
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reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


Unity is exactly what they don't want to happen, which is why they silenced Jesus. They knew his message would bring people together so they killed him then edited his story.

To think that a book that's been around thousands of years wouldn't be edited is baffling in my opinion. The bible seems to be a huge part of your life and billions of others, so it definitely has a HUGE influence here on Earth. We can barely get birth certificates and tax returns from our leaders today, leaders have been corrupt throughout history, especially Romes. Can you really say that they would let the real truth be spread so far without ever editing the story? Of course they would alter it, they are liars and always have been. All they had to do was pick up a pen and paper and then copy the scripture and add their own lies to it. The bible is editable in all reality.

The miracles and resurrection and astronomical numbers throughout are a dead giveaway that it has been edited with pagan themes in my opinion.

Paul was a Roman who persecuted disciples of Jesus and did this for about 6 years then after he kills most or all of Jesus' disciples, he is struck blind and then starts to dictate what Jesus meant after never even meeting him in person. Romans is probably considered the most important book in the bible by most. Coincidence? Logic tells me no.

Also, why did Rome go from killing disciples and Jesus to letting Jesus' "true" message spread so fast? Maybe because they took advantage of his message for themselves? I think so.
edit on 5-11-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)
edit on 5-11-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 01:04 AM
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reply to post by SpiritofEnoch
 



Matthew 20:16
So the last will be first, and the first will be last.


This means that the first and last "I Am's" are both the same, also meaning that every person in the middle is the same as well. We are all the "I Am", Jesus right next to us. The only difference between you and Jesus is that he knew who we all were and remembered himself, ourself. This is the message the Romans distorted in my opinion.



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 01:26 AM
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reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 


You think. (I think so too, but that's not the point.)



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 05:18 AM
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Way to fulfill 1 Corinthians 2:14

The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 05:20 AM
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This is where I take a more Swedenborgian approach to scripture. I do not think that most Christians are correct in stating Jesus died for our sins. Sin is not transferred in such a manner. Rather, I believe that for Jesus to die on the cross was the last temptation necessary for him to become merged with the divine. See, evil works on people through temptation, and the only way God will fight this type of evil at the moment is through us humans. This is partly why Jesus had to die on the cross, although it may still seem counter intuitive the way I explain it, lol.

It still confuses me, although sometimes I think I have a good grasp on things. If anyone is interested in actually having this belief explained in a way that does it justice, look up the work of Swedenborg, who was someone who claimed that he had dreams where he was shown certain things by God. While others, like Smith of the Mormon faith, among others, have made claims like this, Swedenborg was quite different. Not only in one area either. There were even some psychic type events that were documented relatively well that occurred with him, which may bolster his claims to some. He really was quite different from most people we would think of today as charlatans, and he was opposed, it would seem, to organized religion to some degree. Maybe not organized religion itself, but certain types of it.



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 06:43 AM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


12 disciples, 12 sons, 12 feasts, three kings/magi/astrologers, 12 constellations, Orion's belt. The three Mary's at the crucifixion (the three Mary's is what Latin Americans call Orion's Belt), turning water into wine, walking on water, feeding 5,000 people with 2 fish and 5 loaves of bread, these are all pagan symbolisms inserted into the story by the Romans.

Why was Christianity turned into the official religion of Rome? Because paganism was failing so in order to make the transition easier for others they inserted these pagan themes. I'm amazed how you can't see it, you seem like a very smart person, yet for some reason you fail to see the obvious.


Not quite. Paganism is a reflection of the mysteries partially taught to Angles. This was known before the flood and then engaged again after the flood with Nimrod. When Nimrod and the languages were cut, the mystery then moved into various languages and the names changed. Nimrod became Osiris and Enoch became Hermes and Thoth. The mysteries have not changed and the symbolism is a reflection from every culture that the mysteries mentioned in Enoch I are the very same.

Enoch I, Chapter 16

1 From the days of the slaughter and destruction and death of the giants, from the souls of whose flesh the spirits, having gone forth, shall destroy without incurring judgement -thus shall they destroy until the day of the consummation, the great judgement in which the age shall be 2 consummated, over the Watchers and the godless, yea, shall be wholly consummated." And now as to the watchers who have sent thee to intercede for them, who had been aforetime in heaven, (say 3 to them): "You have been in heaven, but all the mysteries had not yet been revealed to you, and you knew worthless ones, and these in the hardness of your hearts you have made known to the women, and through these mysteries women and men work much evil on earth." 4 Say to them therefore: " You have no peace."'

When God said, "Jacob (Farmer) have I loved and Esau (Hunter) have I hated," he was speaking of this: Jacob was the pure thread of truth in the Bible that leads to Jesus

The Truth of Nimrod and Osiris
edit on 5-11-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 07:05 AM
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reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 




Unity is exactly what they don't want to happen, which is why they silenced Jesus. They knew his message would bring people together so they killed him then edited his story.

To think that a book that's been around thousands of years wouldn't be edited is baffling in my opinion. The bible seems to be a huge part of your life and billions of others, so it definitely has a HUGE influence here on Earth. We can barely get birth certificates and tax returns from our leaders today, leaders have been corrupt throughout history, especially Romes. Can you really say that they would let the real truth be spread so far without ever editing the story? Of course they would alter it, they are liars and always have been. All they had to do was pick up a pen and paper and then copy the scripture and add their own lies to it. The bible is editable in all reality.


With the scribes and the Hermetic nature of sealing words in symbols, we have backups all over the world. You can check the validity of the Hebrew Matthew copy of scripture and see that there were a few errors here and there. For instance:

23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

This has baffled theologians for centuries until the Hebrew Matthew revealed one word difference. Do everything "THEY" tell you is do everything Moses tells you. In other words, Jesus was saying to do as the Torah instructs. Here is the thing. We already knew this without Hebrew Matthew because we can rightly divide truth. One word wrong and theologians knew already. The larger context of attitude from Jesus allowed them to see the paradox. All paradox can be resolved and most errors are similar to this one. We have enough copies that scholars can work out the errors in the translations by comparing the various translations. In most cases, we have eliminated these errors or know of their inconsistency. None of them change the larger picture.

Rome was not interested in changing the scriptures. Most people could not read and Rome was not reflective of the inner circle of scribes and priests who were gathering the material faithfully. When Rome started using their power to sell indulgences, what did God do? Is it coincidence that the printing of indulgences paid for the mass production of the Bible into English. Have you studied this story? When Martian Luther nailed his thesis to the doors of the church, the Bible then moved 70 million people to the new world and freedom. The Bible generated literacy to a level still not seen since. 95% of those tested for literacy in WWI were at a high level because of Bible study in schools. Tests at that time make our kids look like Special Education.

What did we get from this? The industrial revolution and the tech and communications revolution. Now, all of mankind has access. The gospel is spread throughout the world.

Can God do this:

Matthew 24:14

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Rome had no idea what the scriptures even said and the common man didn't either. Now they do and God preserved the message in the face of Rome's corruption.

edit on 5-11-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 08:37 AM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


for you to take the word so literally and unimaginatively is what's ridiculous!

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