For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.

For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.

In doing so, God would be endorsing human sacrifice and the notion that punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is good justice. He would also be condoning suicide.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Psalm 49:7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

Substitutionary atonement is immoral according to scriptures and all other holy books that I know of. I think that the guilty should be punished and not an innocent human or even a man being ridden like a mule, ---- to use common jargon, --- by a God/Jesus. This is likely the moral reason why most Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah along with the fact that Jesus did not fulfill the other Jewish requirements set by their books and myths.

People are supposed to martyr themselves for their God, not their God martyr himself for them.

Do you agree that for God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral?

www.youtube.com...

If you believe that substitutionary atonement is moral, please provide an argument to support your position.

===============================================

There are also ample quotes in scripture that speak against God wanting any sacrifice at all and if you embrace the notion of innocent blood atonement and God setting Jesus as the ransom for sins, then please view these for the real biblical perspective.

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL

What?

You just figured out just now that religion is BS?

reply to post by Greatest I am

Take a look at the "rules" that "God" gives us, especially in the Old Testament and Koran. Capital punishment for everything from not believing in the "God of Israel" to sodomy to not being a virgin on your wedding day.

You really think that an "all loving, all compassionate, all knowing, eternal 'God'" would also be a hate filled psychopath?

People need to wake up.

The hypocrisy and contradictions are glaring.

I guess I am missing where God condemned man to begin with? If that were the literal attitude in the Old/New Testament, I'm baffled how Heaven fits in.

Now I only have my growing up around the Church and Protestant Sunday School to go by for formal instruction on Scripture but I don't recall God condemning us all. I do recall the concept of universal sin and we're all guilty of it in some form, but with that came the concept of boundless love and forgiveness available to those who seek it.

^^ Whether I believe or follow some or none, is secondary. That's how I generally understand God to feel about the matter, if the Bible is taken as the strict guide to that. So..what am I missing? (Sincere question, OP, if you have a serious answer?)

Sorry, I just noticed who the OP is. Forget it.

A little attention to detail....I pretty sure you meant this instead.....

"For God to (die) for you just to (condemn) you is ridiculous and immoral"

At least it makes sense that way. I've always wondered which group is more
deluded, atheists or theists.

One thing I've learned after fifty years in this life is that when two factions oppose each other,
one black, one white....the truth is always somewhere in the grey middle.

A better question for you OP, would be, "Why would a God need to die as a sacrifice (unto)
himself to save ANYTHING?

reply to post by Greatest I am


1 Colossians 1:

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Who did God produce as offspring? The Son.

Apply your verses now between the two. Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Who again bears the sin? The Son is the image of God, the FIRSTBORN over ALL creation. What does the firstborn possess from the Father? The inheritance. All things were for Him. He is before all things and in him all things hold together.

Who are the Sons of the Son (Father of Mankind)? Are you familiar with Adam Kadmon? If you are familiar with this concept, then further consider the Jubilee Laws set by God and the kinsman relationship of Jesus. The Cross was the symbol in the material world for what was initially done for mankind at the starting point of the cosmos. Just like the Word represents the idea, so the life of the Living Word represents the root meaning behind the symbol. By Adam we fell and by Adam we are saved. The Son bears the sin from A to Z (Last Adam / Jesus).

The same can be said for Baptism. We are not saved by being baptized. It is a symbol of our repentance from sin. Once baptized, we are to rise to new life. Now consider the symbolism. You are immersed into this life as an act of repentance. You are broken from one loaf of bread and poured from one cup. You are made as clay and stamped with the seal of the Son of God. He is the archetype for you so you can repent in the material world and rise back to unity with the Father. Who is your Father? The Son. See this Thread

Think it through. The cross was a symbol and the true act is the soul of the Son broken up into the multiplicity of parts. The point of involution is evolution. The Son is being raised and is also the Father of the next generations. See this thread: Involution and Evolution

If you can get all this straight (and it is not easy), then consider that you are the image of God. Genesis 1:27 states it this way.

Genesis 1:27

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

We are INSIDE the image created by God (Cosmos). The image is of God (Son of God) and broken into fragments (Unity to Multiplicity). The Son is being raised. Jesus had to come and do what none of the other parts of Himself (Images) could do. God was raising Jesus as the Son (LORD / Good Shepherd) along the way. Once the time was right, Jesus had to enter the waters and be baptized (Immersed into reality). He lived a perfected life and become the last Adam. Ironically, he is also the first Adam and all others in between. Is Jesus God? Yes and the first image. Are we the image of the Son? Yes and imperfect until we follow the lead of our savior. Can we do it alone? No more than the Son of God could have done it alone. He needed a Father. As Christ is, so shall we be. It's not up to us, but Jesus will judge each according to their faith.

The question is this: Did you repent while in the water? It's what you are here to do. "You must be born again." and we are behind the veil so we don't know what is happening. Read about the Wool over your Eyes as the Lamb. Sin is Wool.

If you get this, then the pretext you created can now be replaced with the true context. It's beautiful and the Son has been with us for every sin we have committed. He bears our sin as our High Priest and has since the very beginning. We are made from His image and will be remade by the next new image that God produces through the Son. We can choose to deny this as well.

It's a gift.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


Awesome post, I mostly agree with this, if not all. To be clear, do you believe that Jesus had to die in order for people to have eternal life? Or do you think that Jesus was spreading a fundamental truth that everyone has eternal life? Also, do you believe that one has to believe he was god and died on the cross to have eternal life?

I don't mean to be nosy it's just I really liked this post and was wondering.

To the OP:

I don't think it's immoral but I do believe it's ridiculous. So god sacrificed himself to himself in order to save us from himself? Sounds pretty ridiculous to me.

God does endorse human sacrifice in certain situations if it is necessary. He "endorsed" it when he told Abraham to kill Isaac. He showed it wasn't necessary in that situation by sending his angel and a ram for a burnt offering, which is also something God is seemingly pleased by. But remember, we're talking about a completely different era. A burnt offering now might well be something as simple as giving up cigarettes. It's something that you say to God "I don't need this, because I have you" with.

However, human sacrifice is different. Thou shalt not kill is one of the commandments. Jesus is not dead. The righteous do not fear death. What you're asking is "is it moral for God to put on a charade in the interest of making men righteous?" And the answer is yes.

reply to post by SpiritofEnoch


That's like saying one christian killing another christian is okay because neither fear death and are sent to heaven to live forever anyways. How is killing Jesus any different than killing a christian?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


From the view of the men who did it, their souls will react like it is murder. Judas couldn't live with his guilt and hung himself. But when God "killed himself," he did so knowing fully well that it was only an act for mankind. But you cannot try God by man's standards, for no man understands what it is like to be God.

reply to post by SpiritofEnoch


But both christians know they will have eternal life so why should they feel like it's murder? They both know each other has eternal life.

I know what it's like to be god, I'm sorry that you don't.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Anybody who says the really "know" anything is obviously unwise. For all you know, the world could have been created yesterday and all the memories you have from before then are fake.

reply to post by SpiritofEnoch


I could say the same for you but you "know" none of that is true though, right?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


I know what I think. But what I think could change. And my "God" told me that one of those things that could change what I think is killing a person, regardless of whether I "know" that they are going to heaven or not. It's different when God did it to himself, because he really does know all things. At least my God does, I don't know about yours, but I am leaning toward no.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

Awesome post, I mostly agree with this, if not all. To be clear, do you believe that Jesus had to die in order for people to have eternal life? Or do you think that Jesus was spreading a fundamental truth that everyone has eternal life? Also, do you believe that one has to believe he was god and died on the cross to have eternal life?

I don't mean to be nosy it's just I really liked this post and was wondering.

edit on 4-11-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

It's a mystery, yet I think the mystery has enough clues to know for sure. Jesus did need to give the gift. God can only give and receive. What does this imply about His will? He cannot take. We were given the gift of mind. What do you do with mind if it has no body to occupy or space to move? Think about it. What do you do as a human? You move and you think. That's it. The earth turns, the sun shines and your hair grows. Name anything that you do to produce your world that does not involve thought and movement. You can't. You do nothing other than the two that allow your avatar to take actions. Reduce all things to the root and you see the truth.

The next root is found in will. If you have free will, then you can affect the states of matter by your thoughts and movement. Can you fly? Only if you make matter do it for you. Can you jump up and touch a cloud? Why? You are restricted by law. This implies that you cannot make a choice that is not answered by judgment from the law. You are already judged.

What happens if you smoke? You get cancer. What happens if you workout in the gym instead? You get more life. Why is this so? If you take a reward that is not earned, you SUFFER the debt. If you SUFFER first, you receive the reward. You reap what you choose to sow and this is your heaven or hell by choice.

We are locked into our choices by the law of sin and death. How do you get out of this state of consciousness? Faith. Collapsing wave function allows you to take indeterminate wave function from probability and make a choice that you determine will happen. Law governs the process so you must have faith in the correct direction of the wave function to know you have the ability to move as determined. Faith is required for salvation and this is an outcome that we must accomplish by the will of God and not our own. Faith makes a way where there was no way.

Christ is this:

1 Colossians 1:

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

You are then rendered consciousness as a copy of the first image. Adam was the first and Jesus was the last Adam. All points in between this are you and I in the image of God. The Son of God is being raised by God. We are all part of that Son of God in the image. We are being raised as Children. Very true. Jesus is the one that pays the cost of Adam's sin. The one God raises will pay the cost of sin and then raise His children as the new body. Earth II is the next step when we are then reengaged to our new state of consciousness and Holy Spirit is given to us a s crown (Head).

What is our sin. Our sin is the wool that was pulled over the sheep's eyes. The Shepherd sheers the wool and then washes it white as snow. The wool is the cloud of confusion that is the veil over our consciousness (Flesh). When the wool is washed, it is woven into our next robe and given to us when this happens: "You must be born again." Baptism is the immersion of the soul into the water so that it can rise to new life. We are born so that we can repent and rise. Jesus comes in our clouds and every knee will bow and all eyes see.

Read this thread: Amnion, Amniotic Fluid, Amnesia

Are all saved? Hydrogen is one proton and one electron in a balanced state of unity (Positive and Negative). Carbon is 6 protons, 6 electrons and 6 neutrons. How do you rise from the beast of Carbon? You use the Word. Nitrogen is 7 protons, 7 electrons and 7 neutrons (God's number in the Bible). Oxygen is 888 (Jesus in Greek Gematria). The breath is used to confess the word. We must protect the breath from the carbon. Why am I using this as an analogy?

We overcome the beast. The beast is selfishness from the graven images produced by the Carbon. The fruit of knowledge that we took as thieves is what the Carbon produces (Technology). Read THIS:


2 Timothy 3:2-4

“For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents (6), unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control (6), brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God” (6).

18 is 6-6-6 .

Is there a connection between our current state in this world and the selfishness we exhibit?

Christ is necessary for redemption because we are incapable.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


Thanks for the well-thought out reply.

I agree with a lot of this as well. My thought is that Jesus didn't "need" to come to Earth for us to have eternal life, I believe we all have that by default. What we did "need" Jesus for was to help us realize this good news (pun intended) and that news is that we all have eternal life no matter who we believe in.

It's a lot easier to control people when you convince them they only have one shot. The Romans knew this and they feared Jesus' message would take their power over the people away. If everyone knew they had eternal life then what reaction would their death threats have on the people? None, because no one would fear death and wouldn't fear their threats and would fight for their freedom again.

In order to avoid this from happening they caught Jesus and killed him in order to shut him up, later they pulled his story back out and altered it to fit their needs. That's what I think anyways. Oh and we receive the holy spirit at birth, only when we realize this do we "receive" it.

1 Colossians is really interesting too. I'm not one to ever agree with Paul but I think he hit the nail on the head with this one, though he tried to spin it to mean something else with his other teachings. We are the image of the invisible god (sight) and through us all things hold together. Without our consciousness to perceive this universe this universe would cease to exist. We are all god and we are all (well, some of us at least) trying to be like Jesus.

reply to post by SpiritofEnoch


You'd be wrong to think my god isn't all-knowing. I may not know everything but everything that there is to know is known through us, through me, through you, through Jesus, through some alien living a billion miles away. The universe is all-knowing because everything that there is to know is within this universe.

John 8:58
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!"

We can all say "I am", no? What allows us to think that? Self-awareness. What allows us to have self-awareness? Consciousness.

"I am" god just as you and everyone else is god. Without consciousness you would not be just as you think that without god nothing would be.