Why We Can't Just Build More Cages

"Where other states are investing resources in, 'How do we help these people not come back into the prison system?,' California is not," says Adrian Moore, Vice President of Research at Reason Foundation.

The United States locks up more prisoners than any other country. And in the country holding the most prisoners in the world, California is the state that incarcerates more people than any other. California's prisons are so overcrowded that the Supreme Court ruled them in violation of the Eighth Amendment's "cruel and unusual punishment" clause.

Moore and others lay much of the blame at the feet of California's powerful prison guard union, the California Correction Peace Officer's Association (CCPOA), which is unrelenting in its advocacy for tough-on-crime laws, including California Three Strikes, under which any third-time felon can receive a 25-year to life sentence, even if the crime is not a violent, "serious felony."

Crowded Prisons, Unions, and California Three Strikes: Why We Can't Just Build More Cages

The CCPOA, a powerful union which represents California prison guards, lobbies hard to keep prison guards employed. They've spent millions keeping prisoners incarcerated, getting more laws on the books, and strengthening current laws, all to keep humans locked up like animals. The state of California, staple of liberalism and Progressivism, has the most people imprisoned in the U.S., and is in the top 5 in the world, having more prisoners than even Brazil.

Prisons are big business, and they employ a lot of people. But is it worth employing people if the business is chattel slavery?

/TOA

reply to post by The Old American


No we can't afford to keep doing this. We need to get people working at productive endeavors. Once we find something productive for everyone to do then our wants will be covered and much of the deviant and criminal behavior will be eliminated by proxy. Those who can't adapt to that kind of world, where we work together to make things better for all, will likely be the ones in the cages. I think once people understand what we can have by simply being reasonable with one another, the need for most of the cages will be gone.

Originally posted by sligtlyskeptical
reply to post by The Old American

 

No we can't afford to keep doing this. We need to get people working at productive endeavors. Once we find something productive for everyone to do then our wants will be covered and much of the deviant and criminal behavior will be eliminated by proxy. Those who can't adapt to that kind of world, where we work together to make things better for all, will likely be the ones in the cages. I think once people understand what we can have by simply being reasonable with one another, the need for most of the cages will be gone.

Top priority should be "how do we keep people out of prison?" Particularly drug users. If they need help, let's get them help, don't lock them up like animals.

People that should be in prison are violent offenders, child molesters, and politicians.

/TOA

Once you are in the system, you are prettymuch screwed. You get to work a crap job that won't pay the bills, or take your chances at illegal means of income. It's set up that way, has been for a long time. Criminal records should be sealed to everyone except the DA and a criminal judge that resides over your case if you get charged with another crime. That doesn't benefit the greedy "criminal justice" system though.

Originally posted by The Old American

Originally posted by sligtlyskeptical
reply to post by The Old American

 

No we can't afford to keep doing this. We need to get people working at productive endeavors. Once we find something productive for everyone to do then our wants will be covered and much of the deviant and criminal behavior will be eliminated by proxy. Those who can't adapt to that kind of world, where we work together to make things better for all, will likely be the ones in the cages. I think once people understand what we can have by simply being reasonable with one another, the need for most of the cages will be gone.

Top priority should be "how do we keep people out of prison?" Particularly drug users. If they need help, let's get them help, don't lock them up like animals.

People that should be in prison are violent offenders, child molesters, and politicians.

/TOA

Rehabilitation isn't a profitable.

Its sad that investing in private prisons is a decent way to make money.

Sounds like something out of the dark ages.

Originally posted by The Old American

Top priority should be "how do we keep people out of prison?" Pa]rticularly drug users. If they need help, let's get them help, don't lock them up like animals.

Personally, I think drug use of any kind should be completely legal. With the caveat that there should be laws against driving or operating hazardous machines while intoxicated. As for getting the addicted "help", why should we pay for their bad choices? Responsibility is theirs and theirs alone not that of society.

Originally posted by The Old American
People that should be in prison are violent offenders, child molesters, and politicians.

/TOA

What then would you do with habitual thieves, swindlers and con men? What about fraud?

If a man or woman doesn't know right from wrong by the age of say 13 or so they never will in my opinion. I personally think we should be able to shoot thieves on the spot for stealing our stuff. With the understanding that when they steal they are in effect taking food from our mouths. That's why there used to be laws on the books to protect people who were protecting their property. Now, instead we coddle the criminals in comfortable prisons with rehabilitation and reeducation programs.

Penitentiary - a place to pay a penalty for not following the law. Not a place to be educated at taxpayer expense and work out 4 hours a day. The people in prison should be worked 12 hours a day at hard labor - then if they want to go to school after that it will be available. Most Americans work a full time job and go to school at the same time - why can't felons?

When a person has demonstrated a certain lack of ability to live in civilized society I think we should in the interest of cost just execute them. Repeat thieves, repeats of anything for the most part should at some point just be euthanized like a dog that can't be trained.

Originally posted by TKDRL
Once you are in the system, you are prettymuch screwed. You get to work a crap job that won't pay the bills, or take your chances at illegal means of income. It's set up that way, has been for a long time. Criminal records should be sealed to everyone except the DA and a criminal judge that resides over your case if you get charged with another crime. That doesn't benefit the greedy "criminal justice" system though.

That is exactly true and the solution is a great idea. I have been involved in the criminal justice system for almost 50 years. What you say fits perfectly. Star for you.

Although this will sound strange coming from a "democrat"... we should just extend the death penalty and use it more often. No more "life in prison" crap, if they did something that bad, go ahead and execute them and get it over with.

Only AFTER being proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt of course, but at that point, then yes, the death penalty is the best option instead of letting them live out their lives with three hots and a cot. Especially for murder of any kind, shape or form or extremely violent crimes.

We can come up with other options for lesser crimes and I'm completely open to cutting off hands for theivery in extreme cases, castration for rape and other things that would prevent the crime from happening again without clogging up the prison system.

Have maximum terms of three years for the crimes that weren't violent and didn't result in death. For things such as drug dealing, give them all the drugs they want, let them overdose and get it over with. It's just getting really old that prison inmates have better lives in a lot of cases than their victims have.

reply to post by PurpleChiten


As a conservative who actually lives in California the option to permanently remove the death penalty is on the ballot this year.

I am voting for it. I do not believe the state has the right to kill people.

I am actually against everything you wrote. I would not want to live in a place you described.

We shouldn't build more cages. Ayn Rand, in Atlas Shrugged explains it perfectly (the movie butchered this part) what is going on:

“Did you really think we want those laws observed?” said Dr. Ferris. “We want them to be broken. You’d better get it straight that it’s not a bunch of boy scouts you’re up against… We’re after power and we mean it… There’s no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren’t enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What’s there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of law-breakers – and then you cash in on guilt. Now that’s the system, Mr. Reardon, that’s the game, and once you understand it, you’ll be much easier to deal with.”

What we need are fewer laws. Currently, nobody knows the exact number of Federal laws that can land you in jail. If you have a froggy local prosecutor, forget about it!

If you want to lose your mind on why people are going to jail, read this.

We need changes but the problem is that the majority of people who get to prison are not fit to be in normal society.
They are usually there because they aren't able to conform to societal norms, obey the law and support themselves.
That's not criticism. It's fact.

The problem is that sitting in a prison isn't going to give them the skills to be a law abiding citizen but it will make them better criminals.

We need to bring back work camps and labor prisons for short term and nonviolent inmates.
The ability to work physically, mentally and get some degree of skill training is what most of them need and will never get.

Before someone starts screaming about new slavery, cruel and unusual punishment or any of that fun stuff, look at where we are in this country. Millions of inmates with no future.

They need to have something to look forward too besides halfway houses, minimum wage (if they can get it) and more crime.

A work program that reduces sentence at two to one ratio would be a good deal and might help inmates learn something that will get them a new start on the outside. Two work days would reduce sentence by one day and keep the inmate busy. He would support the cost of housing, guarding and feeding himself and would have a steady work history once he stepped out the door.

If we can't have people step out of prison with better skills than when they went in, we might as well start building more prisons.

Originally posted by GreenGlassDoor
reply to post by PurpleChiten

 

As a conservative who actually lives in California the option to permanently remove the death penalty is on the ballot this year.

I am voting for it. I do not believe the state has the right to kill people.

I am actually against everything you wrote. I would not want to live in a place you described.

Understood, we are each entitled to our own opinion and I respect yours.

...kinda strange that we're on opposite sides of the political aisle and have opposite opinions concerning the side we're on though, isn't it?

Maybe we're doing the swinging of the pendulum thing that happens with the political parties once again?

reply to post by badgerprints


Labor camps? They only used to do crap like breaking rocks and digging ditches. Not exactly teaching any skills there. Unless you mean something new altogether, like teaching trade skills like masonry etc. That would be pretty good, but still, not many are going to hire a convict no matter how skilled they are. Which goes back to the problem of people being able to see other's criminal records, after they have done their time. Screw up once, and you carry that scarlet letter around for life, it's not right. Employers that do hire them, also take advantage of the fact not many will ever hire them, and pay them peanuts. They know there is not much of a choice for them.

reply to post by TKDRL


OK, I could go with the criminal records being sealed for the cases that still wind up in prison as opposed to the death penalty in the cases involving outright murder...

Once the penalty has been paid, that's the end of it.

But I still feel that outright murder should be dealt with by taking the life of the guilty instead of letting them live on... I'm just very tired of seeing people released from prison after taking a life, then taking another life and going right back.

If there is not a successful way to rehabilitate, then go ahead and alleviate that particular problem before it has the chance to occur again and another INNOCENT life is lost.

Cages for the human zoo are just as bad as animal zoos, in my opinion. They are very sad only.
Constantly incarcerating people does not work on any level of humanity but a lot of boys/girls inside find God while they're there, so i guess that would be the only silver lining to that situation.
What ever helps right?

It doesn't help those people at a fundamental level and basically they are lab rats for medication and abuse, I don't like it at all.

I had a friend go to the clink for 6 weeks (violence) and the first thing they offered to all new enrollees was drugs, to combat any addictions they may have, as most do.
My friend said no (he was pretty clean aside from grog), I have yet to hear his 'dream' stories form being inside but seriously he went through something very strongly metaphysical while inside which shook him to the core, and from what I gather, highlighted fears he didn't know he had.

This mealstrom of energy inside of jails is also collectable, and could be the motivativation for continuing such an archaic way of assisting someone to reform.

If their emotional, physical and mental well being is not healed they stay in their cycles, that is always bad for everyone.

and as an aside, the mention of california makes me slightly apprehensive

Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to post by badgerprints

 

Labor camps? They only used to do crap like breaking rocks and digging ditches. Not exactly teaching any skills there. Unless you mean something new altogether, like teaching trade skills like masonry etc.

I mean any skills needed by the prison to support the running of the prison.
They used to have farms and raise cattle,pigs, chickens, fruits and vegetables. These are all real life skills that would make life more interesting and rewarding.
Construction and maintenance, plumbing, electrical, computers, welding, automotive.
All of these things are useful.
An enviroment where inmates can volunteer to go on a work farm program to stay busy and get trade skills as well as reduce sentence would be great for nonviolent offenders.
I personally don't see any reason that an employer should intentionally hire a criminal. It defies logic. It would be in the ex-convicts favor that he spent the last year or two working every day and has a marketable skill.

Hell,
A work farm near a large city that produces grass fed beef and organic produce would pay for its self and the innmates would be able to get a small percentage back for their new start.

It has to start somewhere. Might as well be with inmates that want to participate in self improvement.

Originally posted by Golf66

Originally posted by The Old American
People that should be in prison are violent offenders, child molesters, and politicians.

/TOA

What then would you do with habitual thieves, swindlers and con men? What about fraud?

sounds like that one is covered under the label politiicians

Listen I am no liberal by any means but if you do a cursory investigation into private prisons & Wall St. involvement with them. They have ticker symbols & everything - the more people Wall St puts in - the more money they get out...capeesh.


Locking Up Profits in Private Prisons

"Corrections Corp of America is the country's largest private prison operator, with 65 jails and detention facilities in 19 states. Its facilities have a capacity for 86,500 inmates and typically operate at more than 95% of capacity. In fact, only the federal government and three states run bigger prison systems. CCA generated 45% of its total revenue of nearly $1.6 billion from state contracts in 2008 (and 39% from federal contracts). Geo Group, the second-largest operator, had $711 million in U.S. revenue. No. 3 Cornell had $386.7 million in total 2008 revenue."

www.fool.com...

reply to post by badgerprints


Yeah, that sounds good to me right there. I was picturing the chain gang stuff. All that chain gang stuff really does, is make sure the convicts are ripped when they get out

I have hired "ex cons" when business was really really booming, and we got behind schedual badly due to injuries/illness. They were people that were trying their damndest to turn their life around, despite the uphill battle they faced. I met them through volunteering at places, where they were also volunteering to get some experience under their belts. They never did no wrong by me, the houses we worked in there was ample chance to, and some valuable stuff. Even I have been tempted before, just one or two pieces of artwork, sell them off and move to south america rich as hell But seriously, they busted their asses almost as hard as I did, and that is saying something. I hope learning a trade helped them out in getting their life together.

Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to post by badgerprints

 

Yeah, that sounds good to me right there. I was picturing the chain gang stuff. All that chain gang stuff really does, is make sure the convicts are ripped when they get out

I think the labor they do should be at least in part punitive in nature for the majority of the day. Then after they have completed their penalty (penitentiary) labor - we could have trade schools and GED programs available. However, I am wholly against the criminals getting rehabilitated and educated in lieu of paying a penalty be it in labor or restitution. Most adults in America have to work a job to support themselves while they take classes or pursue a trade on time they don't spend doing some menial job to pay their bills. Prisoners should do no less.

Originally posted by TKDRL
I have hired "ex cons" when business was really really booming, and we got behind schedual badly due to injuries/illness. They were people that were trying their damndest to turn their life around, despite the uphill battle they faced. I met them through volunteering at places, where they were also volunteering to get some experience under their belts. They never did no wrong by me, the houses we worked in there was ample chance to, and some valuable stuff. Even I have been tempted before, just one or two pieces of artwork, sell them off and move to south america rich as hell

But seriously, they busted their asses almost as hard as I did, and that is saying something. I hope learning a trade helped them out in getting their life together.

I can vouch for one thing there are those who want to turn around their lives and can live in society and those who can't. I got a cheap deal on a house one time, bought it sight unseen over the internet before a PCS move in the Army. Found out later that it was cheap because it was located next door to a half-way house for parolees.

For the most part the people seemed to be rough men who had made bad choices. They had jobs (menial back breaking physical type jobs that others wouldn't do). They'd sit outside on Sundays and listen to NASCAR since none of them could afford cable, and cook hotdogs on the grill. They listened to the radio a little loud and got a little rowdy after some beers but I never complained to the cops. I'd figured they worked hard labor they deserved to whoop it up a little. I'd say hi to them and howdy and such, other than that I never really said much to them nor they to me until after we had a yard sale. It was obvious to me that these guys needed some furniture and I gave them a couch some chairs and a kitchen table that I didn't sell. After that - I never feared leaving my wife at home alone again. They'd offer to do things for me, help me carry large items into the house and stuff like that. I’d give them some clothes and used things every now and again as we replaced household items, toasters, coffee makers, etc.

I once set some large wooden boxes I got from a furniture delivery outside for a friend to pick up. I hear a knock at the door and its one of the guys from the house another one had my friend in the truck with a baseball bat confronted about taking the boxes - he said he saw him taking them and wanted to make sure it was ok.

I think that just by treating them like any other neighbor I was "ok" in their book and not only would they not take anything to do anything to our property they actually protected it.

I do think; however, that there are some people who are not fit to live in society and in those cases after many repetitive trips to the penitentiary we should just put them down for their own sake and that of our tax bills.