What if God and Satan were interchangeable in the Bible?

A question for Christians, if the Lord’s in the bible were interchangeable between God and Satan how would it change your thoughts on the bible?

I’m not saying this is the case but I feel it’s a possibility

This is a genuine question for everyone, before I knew God was without a shadow of a doubt real in every sense, I struggled trying to understand/connect to the description of God in the old testament, I knew in my heart that if God was real he would love us all equally and that just wasn’t reflected in the OT.

Even back then I was asking the wrong question, which was ‘’why would god let all these bad things happen’’, I never even once questioned whether or not the Devil was real, once I saw the evil works happening that I’d never noticed before I decided that the way we’ve been manipulated was very very clever and could only be the work of the Devil, but at least this also meant that I finally saw that God was real too,

I’m not expecting everyone to agree with me but it would be interesting to see how it would change you’re opinion if it, i would also like to point out that i am very new to the bible so i still have so much to learn, but this issue became a stumbling block for a while as it just didn't fit right with me

i'm reading the authorised king james version of the bible so i'm aware that different names may be applied for God, and in the version i'm reading there are so many, and i'm beginning to think that the 'lord of hosts' and 'the god of israel' are the titles i need to be wary of but i'm still trying to figure it out

let me know you're take on this,

thank you for reading

reply to post by Minnie1985

for some it is god, for others it is the devil.

reply to post by icepack

thats a very good point, i've just been reading something along the same lines involving freemasonry and how they are often christian church leaders, and they know that their followers will have blind faith and are often misled into worshipping satan instead of god,

i found this quite interesting, it explains what the different meanings could be depending on which lord a person might choose to follow
www.cuttingedge.org...

Satan may not be God, but he clearly has the power of a God or semi-god. Enough power to cause God eternal problems. The bible does strongly hint at the fact they are the same entity though, or two sides of the same entity.

reply to post by ChaoticOrder


you're right, the hints are obvious to me but when i tried to explain this to my friend who is a born again christian he won't even finish letting me explain as he already has an answer to show me i'm wrong even though he won't listen, then he turns round to me and says 'i've been studying the bible a lot longer than you' then in the next breath tells me to visit so and so website and it explains it better, when i tell him it makes sense to me from just reading the bible that also annoys him as he has previously told me that the only book i need to read is the bible and the truth will come through by itself,

Originally posted by Minnie1985
A question for Christians, if the Lord’s in the bible were interchangeable between God and Satan how would it change your thoughts on the bible?

I’m not saying this is the case but I feel it’s a possibility

This is a genuine question for everyone, before I knew God was without a shadow of a doubt real in every sense, I struggled trying to understand/connect to the description of God in the old testament, I knew in my heart that if God was real he would love us all equally and that just wasn’t reflected in the OT.

Even back then I was asking the wrong question, which was ‘’why would god let all these bad things happen’’, I never even once questioned whether or not the Devil was real, once I saw the evil works happening that I’d never noticed before I decided that the way we’ve been manipulated was very very clever and could only be the work of the Devil, but at least this also meant that I finally saw that God was real too,

I’m not expecting everyone to agree with me but it would be interesting to see how it would change you’re opinion if it, i would also like to point out that i am very new to the bible so i still have so much to learn, but this issue became a stumbling block for a while as it just didn't fit right with me

i'm reading the authorised king james version of the bible so i'm aware that different names may be applied for God, and in the version i'm reading there are so many, and i'm beginning to think that the 'lord of hosts' and 'the god of israel' are the titles i need to be wary of but i'm still trying to figure it out

let me know you're take on this,

I highly doubt that you can say anything to "change" my thoughts on God nor the bible. I believe that God is real, and that Satan is real, and that they are two DIFFERENT beings! Better to leave the bible alone than misconstrue it's intent.

reply to post by Wonders


How can you know happiness without sadness, how can you know love without hate, how can you know life without death... even if God isn't Satan he still allows Satan to exist because there is no light without darkness.

I'm talking in analogies and metaphors of course, I don't believe in God or Satan, well certainly not in the way the Christian bible lays it out, or any other man-made religious text on Earth.

I highly doubt that you can say anything to "change" my thoughts on God nor the bible. I believe that God is real, and that Satan is real, and that they are two DIFFERENT beings! Better to leave the bible alone than misconstrue it's intent.

reply to post by Wonders

thanks for you're reply and i wouldn't want to change you're thoughts on God or anything that is dear to you, i too believe in God and Satan are both real and both very separate for the most part, but i just feel that its very possible that Satan posing as God would be the ultimate deception, and i just can't get my head around it, it was when i read in zechariah that the Lord of Hosts was jealous of zion, and i immediately thought why would god be jealous? then i read isaiah 48 and the following 2 verses made me realise that all the evil things god seemed to be doing wasn't actually God but instead Satan pretending to be God,

“1 ¶ Hear ye this, O house of Jacob,
which are called by the name of Israel,
and are come forth out of the waters of Judah,
which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, [
but] not in truth, nor in righteousness. (this to me is describing someone who is using the lords name but not in truth)
2 For they call themselves of the holy city, and stay themselves upon the God of Israel;
The LORD of hosts [is] his name.

maybe i'm really missing the point with these verses but i cant see what else it could mean, any help would be appreciated,

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by Wonders

 

How can you know happiness without sadness, how can you know love without hate, how can you know life without death... even if God isn't Satan he still allows Satan to exist because there is no light without darkness.

Christianity and Judaism are not dualistic -- Satan is not a counterpart to God. In non-dualism, evil is not the opposite of good, it is the absence of it, just as darkness is not the opposite of light, but the absence of it.

reply to post by Minnie1985

I think it would help for you to remember your first impressions, and what led you to conclude that Satan and God are real ( persons or forces or ideologies ).

once I saw the evil works happening that I’d never noticed before I decided that the way we’ve been manipulated was very very clever and could only be the work of the Devil, but at least this also meant that I finally saw that God was real too,

Without human drive and ambitions only the natural gods are active, good or ill depending on how smart the people were in locating their houses in safe ( not tornado ally, not hurricane cove, not dry riverbed etc. ) places, with access to food and water.

Once human drive becomes factored in, tribal gods enter in. "I, tribal god 1 love you with a neverending love. Tribe 2 is living in a better place, so I am giving you their land, tribal god 2 is evil. Kill the people and tear down their places of tribal god 2 worship." If you happen to be a member of tribe 2, then their "all loving god" is the ultimate of evil.

If, after the naked aggression in destroying gods of other tribes is successful, then tribe 1 god becomes de facto one and only. "LORD of hosts" means YHWH of armies, if a god of war is the only god left available, then what do we have? Though peace should be the result of One Worldwide God, there is no peace.

I find it most likely that if there is a real God of all people, he would be one who never started out as a tribal god.

Edit to add: On jealousy: some tribal gods are jealous of their position. Any calamity that befalls the tribe is conveniently blamed on the tribe's unfaithfulness. That's when even the "ever beloved" of the god may think "with a god like this, who needs a devil?"

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by Wonders

 

How can you know happiness without sadness, how can you know love without hate, how can you know life without death... even if God isn't Satan he still allows Satan to exist because there is no light without darkness.

I'm talking in analogies and metaphors of course, I don't believe in God or Satan, well certainly not in the way the Christian bible lays it out, or any other man-made religious text on Earth.

edit on 3/11/2012 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)

I understand what you are saying, the bible talks in analogies and metaphors too.
Personally it doesn't bother me at all that you don't share my beliefs and experiences, you've got your OWN life.

reply to post by Minnie1985


Think about it this way. If you were trying to reach a certain goal. Part of that goal is destroying what is already there to create something. And it required an act that would be viewed as evil by certain points of view(people).

Wouldn't you come up with an alter ego so as not ot lose your subjects.

If I had creations living in a paradise but they weren't part of primary goal because of lack of education. Wouldn't you then disguise yourself to trick them so that you could kick them out. Becuase if they knew it was the same deity would they not lose there respect for god.

They would being to question his judgement not realising that in the grander scheme of things it had to happen.

That is where we should be today with our so called "understanding". Looks like we still have awhile to go.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
The bible does strongly hint at the fact they are the same entity though, or two sides of the same entity.

It doesn't.
I could give some bible verses that show otherwise, but honestly, if you wanted them you'd have looked for them and you'd have found them and you wouldn't have misled whoever's gullible enough to take you at your word.

Originally posted by Minnie1985
A question for Christians, if the Lord’s in the bible were interchangeable between God and Satan how would it change your thoughts on the bible?

This is like "What if we call roses lilies?" Doesn't really change anything.

I’m not saying this is the case but I feel it’s a possibility

No, one is subject to the other. Satan doesn't run around doing what he wants, he only does what God tells him he can do- and there's a purpose to all these things.

This is a genuine question for everyone, before I knew God was without a shadow of a doubt real in every sense, I struggled trying to understand/connect to the description of God in the old testament, I knew in my heart that if God was real he would love us all equally and that just wasn’t reflected in the OT.

He does love us all. If you're unfamiliar with the bible, then just look at the world around you- it's all a bunch of analogues designed to help you understand what is happening to you. Look at the family unit for such an analogue. Mother and Father make a baby. Baby starts out ignorant and confused, needing to be taught understanding and how to act. You can't just let baby grow up running around doing whatever his ignorant little mind wants to do. Every once in a while you have to say STOP THAT RIGHT NOW! That scares baby but in time he'll be an adult and you'll be able to stop doing these things and he'll have his own life, and act like he's got some sense.

That's what's going on. You look in the OT and see God often going STOP THAT NOW! and sometimes the kid gets a whoopin. This is just how it must be in order to bring the kid into adulthood. The wrath can ramp up here, but God's dealing with an entire creation that He's bringing into being and sometimes you just need to lay down THE LAW in order to make sure the kids don't end up killing each other when they grow up.

In the end, everyone is going to be just fine- most Christians are just horrifically misunderstanding the concepts of "hell" and "judgment" and such things, but suffice it to say in the end, everyone is grown up, the "terrible twos" are over with and done, and we all get to live in peace with one another because of these things we are being taught. And typically kids may hate their parents while they're in the "I'm ignorant and know everything; dad is a loser who doesn't understand me, whaaaaa" but in time that kid grows up and looks back and goes "sheesh what an idiot I was back then"; same thing here.

Death itself is the final smack in the proverbial arse, and then it's all good; and believe you me when it's all over God is going to sit back and go FINALLY the kid is alright. Now get out of my house and go zip around the universe and have inifinite fun. Trust God, He's explaining this to you if you just sit down and listen: you don't have to listen- but He's saying, if you don't then you're still getting born and it's going to seem horrifying, and there's nothing I can do about that because that's just what happens when you're coming into being and not listening to me telling you what's going on- if you listen to me then this will be WAY easier because you'll know and understand that there is NOTHING TO FEAR.

People fear birth as much as death. But once you're born- it's over, you're finally you, and you'll be going "hey that wasn't so bad at all; and it all went by so fast."

Originally posted by Minnie1985
A question for Christians, if the Lord’s in the bible were interchangeable between God and Satan how would it change your thoughts on the bible?

I’m not saying this is the case but I feel it’s a possibility

This is a genuine question for everyone, before I knew God was without a shadow of a doubt real in every sense, I struggled trying to understand/connect to the description of God in the old testament, I knew in my heart that if God was real he would love us all equally and that just wasn’t reflected in the OT.

Even back then I was asking the wrong question, which was ‘’why would god let all these bad things happen’’, I never even once questioned whether or not the Devil was real, once I saw the evil works happening that I’d never noticed before I decided that the way we’ve been manipulated was very very clever and could only be the work of the Devil, but at least this also meant that I finally saw that God was real too,

I’m not expecting everyone to agree with me but it would be interesting to see how it would change you’re opinion if it, i would also like to point out that i am very new to the bible so i still have so much to learn, but this issue became a stumbling block for a while as it just didn't fit right with me

i'm reading the authorised king james version of the bible so i'm aware that different names may be applied for God, and in the version i'm reading there are so many, and i'm beginning to think that the 'lord of hosts' and 'the god of israel' are the titles i need to be wary of but i'm still trying to figure it out

let me know you're take on this,

thank you for reading

Satan is a deceiver. He deceived and his intent is ill will, to do harmful things. God is the opposite. He's good, loving, and wants the best for his children. So when you say "interchange" I have no clue what you're talking about because if they were interchanged Satan wouldn't even create men. He's not about that kind of thing. He wants to destroy people.

People have this false believe that God is only loving, but the God of the bible can get mad too. He's slow to anger but if he gets angry then he could pour out his wrath. So there's that side of him as well.

Also as far as God/satan. It's too different things. Satan is an ex-arch angel which is simply a created life force, no different than you or I. Where God is so different. Like God is a life force so to speak, but an energy force so to speak as well. He's shown us he has a personality, but also he's inside everything. He's omni present, so my thought is he's inside every single atom there is. He's not bound by time or space like satan or us.

As for the bible I do like the KJV but if you're just learning I seriously recommend just like a modern translation. Like the NIV. That will help you to understand the concepts far far more easier as it's in a modern language.

There is no satan...and disobedient children (little monsters) get berated...the story 'grows' in magnitude...a convenient scapegoat is created to divert personal responsibility...

...just grow up...God wants you to...

A99

God wants nothing. It is man who 'wants', it is man who expects and it is man who speaks for God when God never spoke a word.

This moment of presence is God made - it is the Immaculate Conception - conceived by God. This moment of presence is untouched by the mark of the beast until man lays words upon it. Prior to conception (words and ideas) 'this' is sacred. When words are placed over (veiled) the sacredness, the purity of Gods glory is desecrated.

Right now what is appearing is scared and divine, it is nameless/unspeakable, it appears wordlessly. Then words appear to name the unnamable, these words decieve.

reply to post by Minnie1985

thank you everyone for you're replies, sorry i haven't replied sooner,

when i posted this thread i was still trying to understand the question i was asking myself, i also re-read some threads that had previously caught my attention and i slowly pieced them all together and these seemed settle my mind a little, i was reading certain parts of the bible with only one mindset and it turns out i needed others thoughts on the subject too,

i'm still glad i asked the question though as it was something that was bothering me,

thank you

reply to post by Minnie1985

You're welcome.

Second line : I've got no clever follow-up..

He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him. 
Colossians 2:15
Seems that there was plenty of evil in the leadership responsible for putting Jesus to death without a Satan.
The universe as it exists is difficult by nature which leads a lot of people into doing things bad out of a misplaced sense of survival.
Is it somehow God's fault that the universe is not like an eternal mother carrying us on her hip while letting us constantly nurse (Isaiah 66:11-13) ?
I think we are all responsible for making it become better, we who live in this universe and who were the ones who wanted it so badly, then complaining that it is not so great as we had hoped, and finding persons who we can blame for everything bad about it.