A challenge for the Mason haters

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posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 02:28 PM
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reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 


My claim that you know nothing of Christian theology stands. You have read about it probably, but not experienced it, and therefore do not know if what you are reading is real or not. Your sources are not credible I am saying that for your benefit, not to appear intellectual or make me "right" and you "wrong". If you really seek the truth of the world, you should re-consider this extreme point of view.

You should ask your Christian brothers. I am aware of the claims that Christians just "made Satan up".
I have researched it. It is almost like arguing about whether or not the Crusades were just. They were just but try telling my dad that. History is written by man, who is extremely flawed and unreliable and writes different versions of it. One thing is certain, we did not make it up. If you met someone who has had friends killed by demon(s), and has had to fight through years of demonic oppression, you would jump to the conclusion that they are crazy. You would look for any way to explain it away, and you will be provided with many. It is the nature of this game.

Moral cop out? We list sins in confession, not demons. We are responsible when we fall, possession is rare and does take away any responsibility of that soul for their actions because they are not the ones performing the actions.

I am aware of the "satan made me do it" people. Read what the Catechism says about that. I am also aware that some (not many, I would like to think 0.00001%) Masons worship demons and know what they are doing. Does that mean Masons worship demons?
Does it mean that all Christians that are aware of demonic activity are going to one day say "satan made me do it" as a cop out? The answer to both of these questions is no. Extreme points of view are one of the most dangerous things to humanity.

Weakness? We are nothing. I am nothing. If weak is what you are looking for, you have found it indeed.


edit: I was not looking for a theological debate but I am now engaged in one so I will continue. I was looking to see how Christian Masons reconcile know Christian Truth with Masonry. I will go dig that post up so I can get a full response from a Christian Mason. There are still things I am missing here.
edit on 9-12-2012 by NarrowGate because: (no reason given)
edit on 9-12-2012 by NarrowGate because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 02:30 PM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by NarrowGate
This is an example of why it is fruitless, you know nothing of Christian theology.


What an utterly moronic statement. You have no clue what I know of Christian theology.


1) In our religion any "god" who is not the I AM, Christ, is false. Many of them are surely demons (Moloch for instance, Baal is another example...there are thousands of demons though), and it is valid logic to assert that they all are.


So a person who calls God Yahweh or Allah is worshipping a 'false' God?



in short - Not even close.



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 02:50 PM
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Originally posted by NarrowGate
My claim that you know nothing of Christian theology stands. You have read about it probably, but not experienced it, and therefore do not know if what you are reading is real or not.


I was raised Roman Catholic and was probably one longer then you have been alive. I have experienced enough Christian theology personally to know exactly what I am talking about.


Your sources are not credible I am saying that for your benefit, not to appear intellectual or make me "right" and you "wrong". If you really seek the truth of the world, you should re-consider this extreme point of view.


What source is not credible? Learn to be specific.


I am aware of the claims that Christians just "made Satan up".
I have researched it.


Then link your 'research' so we can discuss its merits.


If you met someone who has had friends killed by demon(s), and has had to fight through years of demonic oppression, you would jump to the conclusion that they are crazy.


You are certainly correct there. Anyone who tries to tell me their pal got killed by a demon after being possessed by one for years is certainly nuts and was not a very good friends for allowing them to suffer the anguish of mental issues without getting them some serious help to treat it.


Moral cop out? We list sins in confession, not demons. We are responsible when we fall, possession is rare and does take away any responsibility of that soul for their actions because they are not the ones performing the actions.


Possession is bull and there is not evidence to the contrary. If you think people can exonerate themselves by claiming 'demons made them do it' then you really need to reassess what it means to take responsibility for ones self and holding yourself accountable for your actions.

This is exactly what is wrong with the world, it is always someone else's, or in this case, something else's fault that you acted horribly.


I am also aware that some (not many, I would like to think 0.00001%) Masons worship demons and know what they are doing.


Such as? More internet innuendo.



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 02:52 PM
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Originally posted by NarrowGate
in short - Not even close.


Your answer is not understandable.

Are you saying, yes or no, that a person who calls God Yahweh or Allah is worshipping a fasle god?



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 03:03 PM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by NarrowGate
My claim that you know nothing of Christian theology stands. You have read about it probably, but not experienced it, and therefore do not know if what you are reading is real or not.


I was raised Roman Catholic and was probably one longer then you have been alive. I have experienced enough Christian theology personally to know exactly what I am talking about.


Your sources are not credible I am saying that for your benefit, not to appear intellectual or make me "right" and you "wrong". If you really seek the truth of the world, you should re-consider this extreme point of view.


What source is not credible? Learn to be specific.


I am aware of the claims that Christians just "made Satan up".
I have researched it.


Then link your 'research' so we can discuss its merits.


If you met someone who has had friends killed by demon(s), and has had to fight through years of demonic oppression, you would jump to the conclusion that they are crazy.


You are certainly correct there. Anyone who tries to tell me their pal got killed by a demon after being possessed by one for years is certainly nuts and was not a very good friends for allowing them to suffer the anguish of mental issues without getting them some serious help to treat it.


Moral cop out? We list sins in confession, not demons. We are responsible when we fall, possession is rare and does take away any responsibility of that soul for their actions because they are not the ones performing the actions.


Possession is bull and there is not evidence to the contrary. If you think people can exonerate themselves by claiming 'demons made them do it' then you really need to reassess what it means to take responsibility for ones self and holding yourself accountable for your actions.

This is exactly what is wrong with the world, it is always someone else's, or in this case, something else's fault that you acted horribly.


I am also aware that some (not many, I would like to think 0.00001%) Masons worship demons and know what they are doing.


Such as? More internet innuendo.



1) fine don't look into it. Like I said that is for your benefit.

2)I did not say possession I said oppression. You obviously know ABSOLUTELY zero about this topic (the difference between possession and oppression is very basic) and have never looked into it because it does not appeal to the "intellectual" in you.

3) Stop ignoring my entire posts. If you are a respected Mason I do not want to have anything to do with Masonry. Your tactics are childish I am not looking to prove a point I am looking for truth. If you go back through this discussion you will see where you ignored what I said multiple times, and pretended I did not answer questions that I infact already did.You have me confused with someone else, this much is obvious. I have absolutely nothing against Masons and have considered joining more than once, but I am loyal to God first and must reconcile it with my beliefs before I even consider it more.

4) Many Roman Catholics have no idea what the Church actually teaches. You have never read the Catechism, that much you have made apparent but go ahead and say you did. They cover the different forms of demonic activity in there.

5) Exonerate? God is in control. If you get possessed God allowed it and will account for it in His plans for your salvation. No need to exonerate anyone...

6) This is exactly what is wrong with the world.Intellectuals who think they know everything, and think that everything that happens has a human being that needs to be blamed and held accountable. Not only that, but think they can actually figure out which human is accountable.

7) there is an example of a Rosicrucian (claimed) worshiping Molech in this very thread. There are more that responded about the other demons they worship// they just call them gods. Are they Masons? IDK... maybe I am asserting something I don't know.... 0.00001% hardly sounds like innuendo. You can not prove anything with a percentage that small.

8) You really do remind me of a politician. I hope you are not a man in a position of power...that would be disastrous for anyone under you. Your idea of responsibility and accountability is another example of an EXTREME point of view. The truth in this life is almost always in the middle.

Even without demons, sometimes people are just not responsible for what happened. Sometimes they are. God sorts that out.

You ignored that bold in my post, you twisted it up, and made false assertions on what I said. Re read it.

Are you one of those people who will never consider that they could be wrong?

WHY ARE WE DEBATING ABOUT THIS? whatever do as you will. I will continue if you wish.



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 03:06 PM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by NarrowGate
in short - Not even close.


Your answer is not understandable.

Are you saying, yes or no, that a person who calls God Yahweh or Allah is worshipping a fasle god?


No they are worshipping the I AM. They are a couple thousand years behind, but worshiping the true God.



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 03:12 PM
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Originally posted by NarrowGate

Originally posted by darkhorserider

Originally posted by muzzleflash
reply to post by darkhorserider
 


Sorry to nitpick but people can worship something unknowingly.
For example money, most will do anything for it, but claim
they don't worship it.

Point is, people subconsciously exalt all sorts of things without
being fully aware of theirthoughts or actions.


Meh...... I dunno about that.

Of course we sarcastically mention things like money, and football as religions, but people don't really look to those things for spiritual guidance. People definitely prioritize money above all else, and they definitely dedicate more time to pursuing money than spiritual growth, but it isn't "worship."

I do not believe a person could unknowingly worship an evil entity, while thinking they were worshipping something good. If all their time and energy is poured into worshipping and emulating the good parts of a religion, and then someone pulls a gotcha and says, it was really Satan all along..... so what? If the time and energy went into good works, and good deeds, and honorable actions, then switching the names is meaningless. There is no way someone could trick you into doing great things for an evil entity.

Although, sometimes I wonder if the opposite might work. It seems a lot of people get tricked into doing evil things in the name of a good entity.


I have not read all of this thread but I had to respond to this post right when I saw it.

1) I am a Christian so bear with me. I know you don't believe that Satan exists as an independent spirit with free-will so create a "hypothetical" situation in your mind where it does and it is not just a symbol of evil (this is actually reality). I do ask this question - what is the most commonly held belief about Satan among Masonic Christians?

2) I do not believe one way or another about Masonry being inspired by Satan. In the last year I have become aware of the fact that I know very little, and to speculate on such a thing *and* "preach it as doctrine"(slander) could be dangerous not only to my soul but to anyone in the world I influence as well.

Please keep that in mind while discussing this with me, if you choose to respond (and I would welcome responses from any Masons actually).

A. People do worship money. I once worshiped money. Only when I realized that I was engaging in border-line idle worship did I see what the word "worship" really means. When you put money before God's Law in your life, you are indeed worshiping money. Your life is an act of worship, you are choosing your path not only in your Faith but also in your *actions*. Jesus has made the path to eternal life clear.

B. It is a known Truth that Satan appears as the Angel of Light and will continue to until Revelations.It is a subtle evil of the worst kind. It is a whitewashed wall, pure and loving on the outside but dirty and hateful on the inside. The lesser demons are *more or less* responsible for the *blatant* hate in the world.

That being said you bring up an extremely valid point. IF Masonry is Satanic - so what!?While it would in that situation be extremely dangerous to brothers and sisters in the Masons (in the human sense of the words, not fraternal), and put their eternal soul's in jeopardy - God is allowing them to be. In fact, we know for certain God is allowing Satan to be as well (for the time being, his fate is sealed and he is beyond redemption). ALL things work for the good of believers. Let the wheat and the weeds grow together until the harvest. One thing that is very annoying to me is all of the hype and *slander* among supposed Christians. As we know, YOU DO NOT KNOW. You are speculating and then potentially turning your speculation into slander. If Satan had a goal here, I think he accomplished it in you just as much as in them. You stray from God's word you lose *every time*, I don't care if the reason you are straying from Him is to kill Satan himself. I don't care if you are a Mason or a Roman Catholic or both (side question - are there a lot of those?).

Do not slander Masons as evil. If they are unintentionally falling to Satan, then who are you to judge. You have too, that much should be evident to you.


Satan needs division to conquer. One thing I will say though - if Mason's do not allow the name of Jesus in their lodges and take His name out of His prayers THAT is a very red flag. You can not worship with people who are worshiping false God's and as any Christian knows it would actually violate the Commandment of not having any false God's in front of the Lord. Furthermore, to pretend it is okay for a man to never find Truth ( which is a person, Jesus) and then call him brother is very evil IMHO.

I have more questions and speculation for later.




posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 03:13 PM
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Can I have a Christian Mason's perspective on everything I said here?



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 03:17 PM
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reply to post by NarrowGate
 


Since Molech, Lucifer, and Satan are not the same people, your who premise is a moot point. Early Christians didn't even believe in Satan, which is a concept derived from other works. God was essentially himself and hades, in a judge, jury, and executioner style. Molech is a god of wisdom, derived from the owl, which is wise because it can see the light in the dark. Lucifer is literally the light-bearer and is based on Venus. Satan is a made up catholic concept to keep Christians from questioning 'God'. All gods eventually lead back to one source - The Great Architect.



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 03:26 PM
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reply to post by VeritasAequitas
 


Thought I should point out that child sacrifice is as much an allegory or myth as any other tale; misunderstood.



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 03:28 PM
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Originally posted by NarrowGate
2)I did not say possession I said oppression. You obviously know ABSOLUTELY zero about this topic (the difference between possession and oppression is very basic) and have never looked into it because it does not appeal to the "intellectual" in you.


Demonic oppression/possession are both equally fantastical and not based in reality.


If you go back through this discussion you will see where you ignored what I said multiple times, and pretended I did not answer questions that I infact already did.


You gave no direct answers to the questions I had to requote for you.


I have absolutely nothing against Masons and have considered joining more than once, but I am loyal to God first and must reconcile it with my beliefs before I even consider it more.


Based on what you have already posted I suggest you refrain from joining, lest you have to sit in lodge with people who's religions you find to outdated.


4) Many Roman Catholics have no idea what the Church actually teaches. You have never read the Catechism, that much you have made apparent but go ahead and say you did.


You keep making incredibly ignorant and rather idiotic statements about what you think I know or do not know. I have read the Catechism and it is one of the main reasons why I am not a Roman Catholic.


5) Exonerate? God is in control. If you get possessed God allowed it and will account for it in His plans for your salvation. No need to exonerate anyone...


God also knows that you are full of crap when you claim to be demon-possessed.


6) This is exactly what is wrong with the world.Intellectuals who think they know everything, and think that everything that happens has a human being that needs to be blamed and held accountable. Not only that, but think they can actually figure out which human is accountable.


If some idiot, claiming that a demon possessed him, shoots someone it is not too difficult, dispite your sentiments, to identify the person accountable. This analogy holds true for multiple other scenarios.


7) there is an example of a Rosicrucian (claimed) worshiping Molech in this very thread.


What does that have to do with your claims of Masons worshipping demons? Answer: Nothing, you fabricated it.


There are more that responded about the other demons they worship// they just call them gods. Are they Masons? IDK... maybe I am asserting something I don't know.... 0.00001% hardly sounds like innuendo. You can not prove anything with a percentage that small.


Irrelevant strawman arguement. Claiming that I can not disprove your percentage based on its size is a logical fallacy.


8) You really do remind me of a politician. I hope you are not a man in a position of power...that would be disastrous for anyone under you. Your idea of responsibility and accountability is another example of an EXTREME point of view. The truth in this life is almost always in the middle.


Then you should thank Jesus that you do not work for me because you would not last one day blaming your inability to function and hold yourself accountable on the supernatural.


Even without demons, sometimes people are just not responsible for what happened.


A person is always responsible for their actions.


Are you one of those people who will never consider that they could be wrong?


Not about demons and taking responsibility for your life.



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 03:30 PM
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Originally posted by NarrowGate
No they are worshipping the I AM. They are a couple thousand years behind, but worshiping the true God.


And so is every other regular Mason who joins lodge as the must profess faith and belief in God.

Whether you think their beliefs are out of date is not relevant. As is what their sentiments are on your choice of religions.



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 03:41 PM
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reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 


Have we even been in the same thread? I am done talking to you now. You are more interested in being right than an actual discussion.

I ask any Christian Masons out there - IS THIS MAN A GOOD REPRESENTATION OF YOUR BROTHERHOOD!?

How many times have I answered the same questions!? How many times has he twisted things up for his own point to prove?

I came in this thread looking to prove nothing. All of your assertions are false. Go back, read it again. Or don't whatever. "Catholic".
edit on 9-12-2012 by NarrowGate because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 03:48 PM
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Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
reply to post by NarrowGate
 


Since Molech, Lucifer, and Satan are not the same people, your who premise is a moot point. Early Christians didn't even believe in Satan, which is a concept derived from other works. God was essentially himself and hades, in a judge, jury, and executioner style. Molech is a god of wisdom, derived from the owl, which is wise because it can see the light in the dark. Lucifer is literally the light-bearer and is based on Venus. Satan is a made up catholic concept to keep Christians from questioning 'God'. All gods eventually lead back to one source - The Great Architect.


What the...

When did I say they are the same demons (did you just call them people?). Early Christians what!?

MOLECH IS A WHAT!?? It happens to be one of the few demons that got a mention in the Bible....

Lucifer is not even mentioned in the original texts, and is misinterpreted as meaning Satan. That one passage in the Bible is referring to a king, not Satan. Lucifer turned into a name for Satan before his fall, but it is innacurate.

ROFL WOW do you people actually buy into this stuff!?

Christian Masons please help your brothers, they do not know... I can see that now.

I am sorry if I come across as insulting, but both of you do. At least it is an accident when I do it.

You just simply do not know.

"Satan was made up". OK Now that I know what freemasons teach as doctrine thanks...

Christian Freemasons....should really help you make a recovery here. I know all Masons are not this ill informed.



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 03:59 PM
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Straight from a Mason - "Molech is a god of wisdom"


ROFL

You are not helping the satan worshiper claims. I don't even buy into them, but just saying...that looks real freakin bad man.

I just can't get over that.

Earlier in the same thread, we have a worshiper of Molech telling all!!

So far we have

1 mason telling me Satan does not exist (why he is pushing this belief on me I haven't the slightest idea)

2 another mason telling me Molech is really a good guy, a "god of wisdom", and all that bit about sacrificing babies is just a myth



ROFL
I HAVE NOT STOPPED LAUGHING THANK YOU SO MUCH
edit on 9-12-2012 by NarrowGate because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 04:10 PM
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Originally posted by NarrowGate
reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 

I am also aware that some (not many, I would like to think 0.00001%) Masons worship demons and know what they are doing. Does that mean Masons worship demons?


Goodness. What orifice did you pull that statistic from?

Fitz



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 04:15 PM
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Originally posted by NarrowGate
reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 


Have we even been in the same thread? I am done talking to you now. You are more interested in being right than an actual discussion.

I ask any Christian Masons out there - IS THIS MAN A GOOD REPRESENTATION OF YOUR BROTHERHOOD!?


Is he riven with hate as so many self-identifying Christians who come here? No. AM acknowledges the striving or unity and perfection that lies at the heart of Masonry. We acknowledge that no man may know the whole truth of the Almighty. Is it really so intimidating that the Alpha and Omega might not go by the name you're comfortable with?

Fitz



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 04:23 PM
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reply to post by Fitzgibbon
 


ROFL

1st Mason telling me Satan is not real (LMFAO) and Christians made him up to control people.

2nd Mason tells me Moloch is a god of wisdom, not a demon, and is actually a good guy. That whole baby sacrifice thing was just a myth (hmm..not what Jesus said).

LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! STILL!!!!

I did not buy into the Satan worshiping BS UNTIL I TALKED TO YOU 2!!

I am still laughing because I can not believe what I just read. Please can a Christian Mason clear this mess up for me before I end up thinking you are all this naive?



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 04:53 PM
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Originally posted by NarrowGate
reply to post by Fitzgibbon
 

Please can a Christian Mason clear this mess up for me before I end up thinking you are all this naive?


I'm one. To repeat what I asked earlier


Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
Is it really so intimidating that the Alpha and Omega might not go by the name you're comfortable with?

Fitz


Still waiting

Fitz



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 04:56 PM
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reply to post by Fitzgibbon
 


No I would not have a problem with it, nor does it scare me. I know it is not the case, however.....


I will be sending you a PM if you don't mind? Maybe this would be better without non-Christian Masons interjecting with things that look very questionable at best, and disastrous at worst.
edit on 9-12-2012 by NarrowGate because: (no reason given)





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