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A challenge for the Mason haters

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posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 08:57 AM
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Originally posted by NarrowGate
Loyalty to God does not mix with Masonry!?


Loyalty to God is taught in each of the degrees and is reiterated throughout the lessons. Intolerance of other's religious beliefs does not 'mix with Masonry'.


IDK why we are even conversing anymore, this discussion will be fruitless because it is not me who is closed minded. I was simply looking to show you me perspective so we could civilly discuss Christian Masonry.


There is no such thing as 'Christian Masonry'.


You want to argue about my beliefs. Who is intolerant?


I could care less about your beliefs, they are completely irrelevant to me. The only time they become a factor is when you interject them into the conversation.


You said it yourself, you abandoned God because you think you have it all figured out. Of course, that has nothing to do with anything but since we are on the subject.


Uh, no. I left Roman Catholocism as it did not make any spiritual, religious or factual sense to me. I have my own beliefs and God is just fine with them.


I just don't know how to justify worshiping with other religions when God specifically told me not to do that...


Considering we do not worship in lodge I have no idea what you are concerned about.




posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 09:04 AM
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Would you look at that you finally answered one question. "we do not worship in lodge". Thank you.

The rest of the conversation speaks for itself, nice attempt at a recovery though.



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 09:10 AM
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Originally posted by NarrowGate
The rest of the conversation speaks for itself, nice attempt at a recovery though.


Recovery from what?



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 09:36 AM
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reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 


Your blatant intolerance. I repeated multiple times that I was just looking to give perspective. You wanted to argue about whether or not Satan appears benevolent (which is a Christian belief). Then you wanted to argue about the existence of Satan.

That is quite obviously, if you go back and read, not what I was looking to do. I was looking to provide you with my perspective so you would be better equipped to answer my questions (and you did finally somewhat answer one).

I was under the apparent misconception that Mason's worship in lodges. I am not sure if I believe you, but I am no Mason. I am a Christian (which according to you does not mix with Masonry, being loyal to Jesus (God) and all...). Perhaps you could get one of your Christian brothers to answer my questions?



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 10:05 AM
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Originally posted by NarrowGate
Your blatant intolerance. I repeated multiple times that I was just looking to give perspective. You wanted to argue about whether or not Satan appears benevolent (which is a Christian belief). Then you wanted to argue about the existence of Satan.


So being that I do not believe in Satan somehow makes me intolerant? I tend to think it makes me rational.


I am a Christian (which according to you does not mix with Masonry, being loyal to Jesus (God) and all...).


I said no such thing. I said that those who are not tolerant of other's beliefs have no place in Masonry. If you feel Jesus does not allow you to associate with people who do not happen to call God 'Jesus' then you have bigger issues in life then pondering the mechanics of Masonry.



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 10:19 AM
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reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 


I can not have false god's in front of God. That has nothing to do with whether or not I tolerate them existing, I have nothing against people who worship them.You, however, can not deal with my knowledge of Satan's existence and Jesus being God. You keep getting back on that topic, but your time would be better spent researching the existence of Satan rather than researching the non-existence of Satan. I could make a case for the non-existence of Masonry if I really wanted to.

I understand that it makes you feel good to believe Satan does not exist, and that it makes you feel "intellectual". That does not pertain to the conversation except that it lets you know what I believe. I have never criticized what you believe, but you have criticized what I believe. Who is intolerant?

BUT if you would like to discuss that with me in detail, I can private message you if you would like. Or we could just open a whole new thread.
edit on 9-12-2012 by NarrowGate because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 11:55 AM
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Originally posted by NarrowGate
I can not have false god's in front of God.


There is only one God. How many omnipotent creators of the universe are there?


You, however, can not deal with my knowledge of Satan's existence and Jesus being God. You keep getting back on that topic, but your time would be better spent researching the existence of Satan rather than researching the non-existence of Satan.


I 'can not deal with your knowledge of Satan'? Do you not see how comical that sounds? I could care less whether you think you have seen Satan once ot you shoot pool with him every Saturday. Additionally, I would not waste one second 'researching' a fictitious entity.


I understand that it makes you feel good to believe Satan does not exist, and that it makes you feel "intellectual". That does not pertain to the conversation except that it lets you know what I believe. I have never criticized what you believe, but you have criticized what I believe. Who is intolerant?


If you feel believing in Satan makes you feel less intellectual, well you need to sort that out yourself. When people like you try to explain to me how the ills of humanity are based on some legendary being and then tell me I need to recognize this as truth you are the one who needs to review how they apporach other people's views and beliefs.


BUT if you would like to discuss that with me in detail, I can private message you if you would like. Or we could just open a whole new thread.


Feel free to open a thread detailing the 'research' that proves Satan's existance, I would look forward to viewing all the peer-reviewed material that you would use to substantiate said claim.



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 12:01 PM
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reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 


All I can say is I am very happy I never walked into that Masonic lodge to ask to join.


Like I said I am not here to debate Satan's existence that is irrelevant to the conversation it was simply to show you where I am coming from.

Since you will "not waste a single second" researching it then why are you wasting a single second debating it either? Seems like you are looking to convince yourself which was not my purpose for posting here. I was posting to figure out how Christians reconcile Masonry with known Truth.

Furthermore, your intolerance is really playing out here.

BTW I never once tried to convince you. I simply invited you to seek the truth if you want. You are the one pushing beliefs here.
edit on 9-12-2012 by NarrowGate because: (no reason given)


also, look up the meaning of "false". they are not gods.
edit on 9-12-2012 by NarrowGate because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 12:17 PM
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Originally posted by NarrowGate
All I can say is I am very happy I never walked into that Masonic lodge to ask to join.


That makes two of us.


Since you will "not waste a single second" researching it then why are you wasting a single second debating it either? Seems like you are looking to convince yourself which was not my purpose for posting here.


I am not the one bringing up Satan-sightings as 'truth'.


I notice how you like to cry that no one answers your questions but it is quite ironic that you avoid any that are posed to you.



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 12:36 PM
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reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 


What question?

Evidence of Satan? When did I bring up "satan-sightings" as truth and try to force it on you? never.

We already went over this.

Do you have malicious intent at this point?

It's almost like you just want to convince yourself you are right. I invite anyone to look back through these past couple pages. It shows you the thought process of an indoctrinated Mason quite nicely.

I actually came in to this thread with an open mind. Thank you for reminding me why that is a terrible mistake.

Christians, especially those who know Satan is real, are not welcome in Masonry. That is how you have represented your brotherhood. Furthermore you have shown blatant intolerance while preaching tolerance.
edit on 9-12-2012 by NarrowGate because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 12:57 PM
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reply to post by NarrowGate
 

I do believe in the Devil, but I think since the late Dark Ages/medieval ages in Europe, he's been overly exaggerated as a tool to justify all sorts of atrocities by those claiming to be righteous.

Yes, I'm a Christian Mason.

reply to post by NarrowGate
 

I think many things could be psychiatric problems, but even those are over diagnosed. I also don't like taking pills and I hate how so many think by taking a pill they will be cured (placebo affect).


I assume you believe all cases of demonic possession, obsession, oppression, infestation, and so on are just psychiatric problems.

I'd say that 99% of those claiming to be have been possessed are just seeking attention and those saying they exorcise them are just looking for a quick $.


Are you a good example of Masonry?

Augustus is a good knowledgeable Mason.


You claim to be a high level Mason....

I didn't see that in his posts, but he's up there and has presided over a Lodge, if I remember right. The whole "high level" vs "low level" theory is hogwash. We're all Brothers.


I was looking to get an idea about how Christians justify their Masonry to see if the logic is valid. I also wanted to get an inside look at the mentality of Christian Masons.

Why would we need to justify?


You have confirmed for me why I would not like to be a Mason. Not with your beliefs but with your mentality. You might not have answered any questions, but at least you unintentionally answered one.

Are you talking about not liking our individual beliefs or the beliefs of the fraternity? Also, are we not entitled to different ideologies and beliefs?

reply to post by NarrowGate
 

Who says Masons are not loyal to God? Our ceremonies are packed with instruction to be reverent to your God. You're trying to twist his words now and that his dishonest.

I'm big into correctness and accuracy. When someone uses "high level" its usually when they are trying to tell one of us that we're not high enough in the Fraternity to know the true secrets. Often this is illogical because in the same breath they tell us they know the secrets as non-members. A majority of the time when I see someone use "high level" it's associated with "inner secret core" or "puppet masters" or a whole lot of blather that does not correctly describe the hierarchy of Freemasonry.

reply to post by NarrowGate
 

The Lodge is not a place for worship. That is not the function of Freemasonry.

reply to post by NarrowGate
 

So do you live in a Christian only area? Do you associate yourself only with Christians (family, friends, co-workers, etc)? If you don't then have "false god's in front of God".


I could make a case for the non-existence of Masonry if I really wanted to.

Except for all that physical evidence.

reply to post by NarrowGate
 

Joining Freemasonry is one of the best things I've done in my life, but the fraternity is not for everyone.

I see no wrongs with me as a Christian joining the Masons. Many "christians" have denounced me for it, but it is not the Bible that disagrees with my affiliation, but rather their interpretation of the good Book.



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 01:09 PM
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reply to post by KSigMason
 


Ok could you please respond to my first post in this thread? I know you might have to do a bit of digging.

You wouldn't happen to be Roman Catholic? I would really like to hear from a Roman Catholic Mason, but I will definitely take the opinions of a Christian.

I am sorry for the confusion, he baited me into a debate about the existence of Satan. If you could respond to the points brought up in my first post, I would be grateful.

Peace in Christ


edit: sorry I am not very knowledgeable about what is conspiracy and what is not therefore I do not draw conclusions. when I say high-level, it is only because I do not know proper terminology. It appeared he was saying that no hierarchy exists.
edit on 9-12-2012 by NarrowGate because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 01:11 PM
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Originally posted by NarrowGate
What question?


You can start with these that you conveniently avoided:


    There is only one God. How many omnipotent creators of the universe are there?



    So being that I do not believe in Satan somehow makes me intolerant?



    Where has he appeared and when and where is he going to make another visit?




Evidence of Satan? When did I bring up "satan-sightings" as truth and try to force it on you?


When you claim your beliefs as 'known truth':


Originally posted by NarrowGate
B. It is a known Truth that Satan appears as the Angel of Light and will continue to until Revelations.



Do you have malicious intent at this point?


No, but I think that you may by your constant maniuplation of what others say as evidenced by your below comments.


Christians, especially those who know Satan is real, are not welcome in Masonry.


Really? Show me where I said this.




edit on 9-12-2012 by AugustusMasonicus because: networkdude has no beer



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 01:17 PM
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reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 


You just took everything out of context and proceeded to ignore that I did respond to those questions.

Do you understand the meaning of "false"?

Please, I would like to hear only from Christian Masons at this point our conversation has become fruitless.


I am quite enjoying our conversation in the other thread though. I didn't mean to say I am done talking about it, it is just annoying when technicality gets in the way of real concepts.

edit: and yes that is a known truth for Christians. You are not, so do not know
ok that was my jab back at your intolerance.
edit on 9-12-2012 by NarrowGate because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 01:40 PM
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Originally posted by NarrowGate
You just took everything out of context and proceeded to ignore that I did respond to those questions.


Nothing was taken out of context, you avoided giving direct answers to any of my questions.


Do you understand the meaning of "false"?


In what context? And 'false' to who? Your defintion of false is another person's name for God, who are you to tell them that what they call the Creator of the Universe needs to be dictated by the specific language you happen to be utilizing?


Please, I would like to hear only from Christian Masons at this point our conversation has become fruitless.


Considering this is not your personal website I will continue to post when I feel it is relevant or when the mood strikes me.


edit: and yes that is a known truth for Christians. You are not...


I was and it was not a 'known truth' by any means.



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 01:43 PM
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reply to post by NarrowGate
 

I think this was your first response:

1) Not sure as its not like we ask everyone their belief on Satan. Obviously due to their particular faith and belief system, some are going to believe in Satan and some will not.

2) One should always pursue knowledge.

A. Our culture has become very materialistic. I wouldn't say that I worship money though.

B. I don't know what response you want from this comment.

Freemasonry isn't Satanic. Freemasonry is about unity and harmony.


One thing I will say though - if Mason's do not allow the name of Jesus in their lodges and take His name out of His prayers THAT is a very red flag.

When I pray, I pray to Christ, but regardless no religious character is said in Lodge. Since we allow men of various faiths to join we cannot hold one faith above another. That being said, if you join the York Rite it is very Christian in nature, particularly the Chivalric Orders.


Furthermore, to pretend it is okay for a man to never find Truth ( which is a person, Jesus) and then call him brother is very evil IMHO.

I disagree.

reply to post by NarrowGate
 

No, I'm not Roman Catholic, but I have been to mass many times with a friend in high school. I know several Catholic Masons.

No worries about the whole "high level conspiracy", that's why I went into some explanation. I had to laugh at one guy who said I was a "low man on the totem pole" since the lowest part of the totem pole is a place of honor.



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 01:51 PM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by NarrowGate
You just took everything out of context and proceeded to ignore that I did respond to those questions.


Nothing was taken out of context, you avoided giving direct answers to any of my questions.


Do you understand the meaning of "false"?


In what context? And 'false' to who? Your defintion of false is another person's name for God, who are you to tell them that what they call the Creator of the Universe needs to be dictated by the specific language you happen to be utilizing?


Please, I would like to hear only from Christian Masons at this point our conversation has become fruitless.


Considering this is not your personal website I will continue to post when I feel it is relevant or when the mood strikes me.


edit: and yes that is a known truth for Christians. You are not...


I was and it was not a 'known truth' by any means.


This is an example of why it is fruitless, you know nothing of Christian theology.

1) In our religion any "god" who is not the I AM, Christ, is false. Many of them are surely demons (Moloch for instance, Baal is another example...there are thousands of demons though), and it is valid logic to assert that they all are.

2) It is not a language thing. There have been many different languages that pronounced the name of the true God (Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ ) in completely different ways.

3) I can respect that, and in retrospect I do appreciate your input

4) It is a known Truth in Christianity. Our Savior came to destroy the works of Satan. It is necessary to believe that to have any context of our salvation. It is a point of faith that is presented throughout the old and new testaments. That is the nature of our salvation. You should learn what we believe before assuming.

edit : for clarity, Satan has not been cast into Hell and will not be until revelations. Like I said, if you want proof that Satan is active in today's world all you have to do is look. Even non Abrahamic religions have recognized the presence of the more blatantly malicious demons.

Take Muslims for instance, they bind demons to the old Law when they encounter demons. Christians cast them out through the Son. This is only in the demons most rare form of activity, possession, but it still is relevant. It is well documented if you want to look for it. We do live in an age of video evidence, which you can argue is made up but there is an insanely large amount of it to make that claim.

edit on 9-12-2012 by NarrowGate because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 01:52 PM
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reply to post by KSigMason
 


I am not saying Masons worship money, that was more directed at society in general.

I can deal with most of what you say but what is your take on the 1st Commandment.



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 02:01 PM
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reply to post by NarrowGate
 

I know you weren't. I speaking about myself as a person not as a Mason.


I can deal with most of what you say but what is your take on the 1st Commandment.

That I shouldn't be worshiping other gods or beings.



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 02:09 PM
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Originally posted by NarrowGate
This is an example of why it is fruitless, you know nothing of Christian theology.


What an utterly moronic statement. You have no clue what I know of Christian theology.


1) In our religion any "god" who is not the I AM, Christ, is false. Many of them are surely demons (Moloch for instance, Baal is another example...there are thousands of demons though), and it is valid logic to assert that they all are.


So a person who calls God Yahweh or Allah is worshipping a 'false' God?

Please explain in detail how 'valid logic' is used to assert that false gods are demons. Perhaps you can start with the two I just gave you.


2) It is not a language thing. There have been many different languages that pronounced the name of the true God (Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ ) in completely different ways.


And what of the people who have never heard of Jesus but believe in one single Creator of All?


4) It is a known Truth in Christianity. Our Savior came to destroy the works of Satan. It is necessary to believe that to have any context of our salvation. It is a point of faith that is presented throughout the old and new testaments. That is the nature of our salvation. You should learn what we believe before assuming.


I should learn? Comical. I have been here long enough to see people like you come and go posting the same unedcuated nonsense and trying to pass themselves off as 'knowing'. Your pal Satan, who you think makes an apperance in the Old Testament, is a Christian invention as the Biblical Hebrews did not even believe in the concept of what modern Christians call Satan. I think you are the one who should do some serious learning.


Like I said, if you want proof that Satan is active in today's world all you have to do is look. Even non Abrahamic religions have recognized the presence of the more blatantly malicious demons.


I am looking and what I see is man being inhumane to himself. To blame our actions on some fictitious entity is to not take repsonsibility for our own shortcomings, weaknesses and failings. It is the ultimate moral and spiritual cop out.


Take Muslims for instance, they bind demons to the old Law when they encounter demons. Christians cast them out through the Son. This is only in the demons most rare form of activity, possession, but it still is relevant. It is well documented if you want to look for it. We do live in an age of video evidence, which you can argue is made up but there is an insanely large amount of it to make that claim.


Just because you saw some video on tardtube does not make it authentic or substantiate the existance of Satan, demons or devils.






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