A challenge for the Mason haters

Originally posted by AussieDingus
And how would you know what shoes i've walked in to come to my opinions and thoughts ?

Not really material. You've based this speculation on ideas that don't follow from the data, therefore it is ill-founded.

My standards of proof haven't let me down so far, so even though they may not be up to a Mason's standards, they have served me well enough so far in life.

You claimed something as public knowledge, plain-as-day fact, that actually goes against the grain of modern economic theory (even Marx, whose theories of class would be ostensibly be most friendly to the concept of a ruling cabal setting our current conomic system, argued that the modern economy was created as a rebellion against the ruling class.) It ought to take some pretty damning evidence for that.

Sorry, but i have had a person on this thread claiming to be a Mason who said it IS a coincidence, and would hear nothing else otherwise.

I've looked at every incidence of the word "coincidence" on this thread and can find nothing that corroborates this claim.

Now this could just be a coincidence, but common sense and a logical thinking process would at least ask the question

In the example at hand, you did ask the question, and were answered with a much more likely explanation.

As for my example almost exactly describing Freemasonry, it also almost exactly describes a lot of non-Freemason's as well.

And that's fantastic, but non-Freemasons are not the subject of debate. No one's questioning the positive qualities of non-Masons, at least not in this thread.

So if i have an opinion based on my own experience's, and with what i see with my own eyes, and i see it happen over and over again, then that makes me cynical ? Have you ever considered why people here and there might have this view, or is it just easier to dismiss it as being cynical ?

Calling it cynical doesn't dismiss it. If we're laying our cards on the table, I've been on the wrong side of the cynical/naive line many a time.

Do you believe in any conspiracy's ?

I believe that nothing could have kept a Bush-led America from invading a Saddam-led Iraq. I believe that an easy solution to the world hunger problem is available but actively hindered by the major corporate players in agriculture. In a related but separate point, I believe that 90% of food expiration dates are arbitrary deadlines designed to make you buy more food. That said, if you asked me about a specific subject, I'd be more likely to ascribe it to a lot of incompetence coming together at the worst possible time...as it happens, I think 9/11 is the poster child for that, and I think the holes in the official story are from deflection of blame.

reply to post by lifttheveil

Oh you clever duck you. I thought you Brits hunted fox?

Originally posted by OnTheLevel213

Originally posted by AussieDingus
And how would you know what shoes i've walked in to come to my opinions and thoughts ?

Not really material. You've based this speculation on ideas that don't follow from the data, therefore it is ill-founded.

My standards of proof haven't let me down so far, so even though they may not be up to a Mason's standards, they have served me well enough so far in life.

You claimed something as public knowledge, plain-as-day fact, that actually goes against the grain of modern economic theory (even Marx, whose theories of class would be ostensibly be most friendly to the concept of a ruling cabal setting our current conomic system, argued that the modern economy was created as a rebellion against the ruling class.) It ought to take some pretty damning evidence for that.

Sorry, but i have had a person on this thread claiming to be a Mason who said it IS a coincidence, and would hear nothing else otherwise.

I've looked at every incidence of the word "coincidence" on this thread and can find nothing that corroborates this claim.

Now this could just be a coincidence, but common sense and a logical thinking process would at least ask the question

In the example at hand, you did ask the question, and were answered with a much more likely explanation.

As for my example almost exactly describing Freemasonry, it also almost exactly describes a lot of non-Freemason's as well.

And that's fantastic, but non-Freemasons are not the subject of debate. No one's questioning the positive qualities of non-Masons, at least not in this thread.

So if i have an opinion based on my own experience's, and with what i see with my own eyes, and i see it happen over and over again, then that makes me cynical ? Have you ever considered why people here and there might have this view, or is it just easier to dismiss it as being cynical ?

Calling it cynical doesn't dismiss it. If we're laying our cards on the table, I've been on the wrong side of the cynical/naive line many a time.

Do you believe in any conspiracy's ?

I believe that nothing could have kept a Bush-led America from invading a Saddam-led Iraq. I believe that an easy solution to the world hunger problem is available but actively hindered by the major corporate players in agriculture. In a related but separate point, I believe that 90% of food expiration dates are arbitrary deadlines designed to make you buy more food. That said, if you asked me about a specific subject, I'd be more likely to ascribe it to a lot of incompetence coming together at the worst possible time...as it happens, I think 9/11 is the poster child for that, and I think the holes in the official story are from deflection of blame.

How do you know what 'data' i've seen or read ? If it was so ill-founded, it would be quite easy to prove wrong then wouldn't it ?

Marx can claim that the banking system was created as a rebellion to the ruling class, but the simple reality is that that is not how the system today is working no matter what its original intentions were. Its clearly the ruling class that benefit the most from todays banking system, and if the banking system was started as a rebellion, then it wasn't a very good rebellion considering those who now profit the most, were also the ones the system was designed to hurt. I guess it just goes to show just how much power and influence they have, plain as day !

As for the word coincidence, i had someone on here claiming to be a Mason telling me that there is no conspiracy with Freemason's becoming Presidents. When they say there is NO conspiracy, then that would imply that its all a coincidence in their opinion, would it not ? I will try and find where it was said, but i'm a little pressed for time at the moment.

And yes, i did ask a question and receive a response, and in your opinion it was a more likely explanation, but we have a different view on this and what you consider to be more likely may not be the case, and vice versa.

I'm aware that nobody is questiong the positive qualities of non-masons. That wasn't what i meant by the comparison, and yes this thread is about Freemasons, but the thread title also says a "challenge for the Mason haters", so that would also include people who aren't Freemasons.In fact, that would make this thread more about non-masons then masons if you take the title into context. And i know you didn't start this thread, but i'd be interested in what classifies someone as a "Mason hater". Am i classed as a Mason hater because i ask the questions i ask, or have the opinions that i do have ?

Thank you for answering about what 'conspiracies" you may believe in, and i appreciated your honesty in the answers.

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by lifttheveil

 

Oh you clever duck you. I thought you Brits hunted fox?

Only the fox haters, british fox lovers like myself don't

On a serious note yes many Brits do, the rich type, Lords, Masons, Aristocrats you know the type. And they do it for sport, that's right, they enjoy the thrill of the chase and killing the animal, needless to say it's something I'm against.

Originally posted by AussieDingus
How do you know what 'data' i've seen or read ? If it was so ill-founded, it would be quite easy to prove wrong then wouldn't it ?

Technically, nothing can ever be proven wrong. It can only be shown to be prohibitively unlikely, and better explanations can be presented. Going on the data presented in this thread, I believe that's been done.

I guess it just goes to show just how much power and influence they have, plain as day !

Regardless, it is far from "fact" that the banking system is a conspiracy of the ruling class, and you shouldn't state it as such.

When they say there is NO conspiracy, then that would imply that its all a coincidence in their opinion, would it not ?

No. No. No. We've been through this before, when you bristled at having "coincidence" defined, but you're still using an incorrect definition of "coincidence". There are things, lots of them, between coincidence and conspiracy.

And i know you didn't start this thread, but i'd be interested in what classifies someone as a "Mason hater".

There's no "official" definition. You'll know it when you see it.

Am i classed as a Mason hater because i ask the questions i ask, or have the opinions that i do have ?

Absolutely not.

reply to post by lifttheveil

I don't know if I could get into fox-hunting unless you count girls at the bar, but I do hunt deer and elk. I do that on foot though which makes it a long day when you knock down an elk and your by yourself without a horse and the elk is the size of a horse.

Originally posted by OnTheLevel213

Originally posted by AussieDingus
How do you know what 'data' i've seen or read ? If it was so ill-founded, it would be quite easy to prove wrong then wouldn't it ?

Technically, nothing can ever be proven wrong. It can only be shown to be prohibitively unlikely, and better explanations can be presented. Going on the data presented in this thread, I believe that's been done.

I guess it just goes to show just how much power and influence they have, plain as day !

Regardless, it is far from "fact" that the banking system is a conspiracy of the ruling class, and you shouldn't state it as such.

When they say there is NO conspiracy, then that would imply that its all a coincidence in their opinion, would it not ?

No. No. No. We've been through this before, when you bristled at having "coincidence" defined, but you're still using an incorrect definition of "coincidence". There are things, lots of them, between coincidence and conspiracy.

And i know you didn't start this thread, but i'd be interested in what classifies someone as a "Mason hater".

There's no "official" definition. You'll know it when you see it.

Am i classed as a Mason hater because i ask the questions i ask, or have the opinions that i do have ?

Absolutely not.

If nothing can ever be proven wrong, then why must one believe in a Supreme Being to become a Mason ? The reason i ask is because if nothing can be proven wrong, then isn't there the possibility that there may not be a Supreme Being ?

The banking system that we know and have today stems from the planning and conspiring of the banking families. Rothschild would be a good place to start, or Warburg and co. They may not be "royals", but they have the Royal lifestyle and influence due to the profits made from the system that their bloodlines created. Its just like in the game of Monopoly, you can by all the best houses and hotels money can buy, but the banker always wins in the end ! The irony of this is that so many banks went bust and got a nice little "get out of jail free" card and got a nice little bailout as well. But the people that lost their savings, superannuation and retirement money, get the consolation prize of knowing that they can come back and play the game all over again starting from scratch.

As for bristling at a comment you made, i can assure you that i'm not the type to get bristled, especially on the internet. I don't believe i am using an incorrect definition of coincidence, and i apologize if i'm not explaining myself well enough, its just in my opinion if someone says there is NO conspiracy, or NO coincidence then i interpret that as being final or definate. I'm not saying i believe it is final or definate, its just how i interpret it. If nothing can ever be proven wrong, then there is always the possibility of a conspiracy or a coincidence, it just depends on the odds as to which one it more likely to be. Thats why i've said from the start that i don't believe that there IS a conspiracy with Freemasonry and US Presidents, but i DO believe that there is the possibility of it being true. But if i was to say there is NO conspiracy or NO coincidence, then that would seem quite definate, would it not ?

Maybe the Mason haters should wear Mason hater T-shirts and see what the reaction is ?

Finally, i apologize for the layout of my replies, whenever i use the multible quote i seem to mess it up and it comes out very confusing. So for now i'll just reply like this until i work it out.

Cheers.

Originally posted by AussieDingus
If nothing can ever be proven wrong, then why must one believe in a Supreme Being to become a Mason ? The reason i ask is because if nothing can be proven wrong, then isn't there the possibility that there may not be a Supreme Being ?

Of course that's always a possibility. We just choose to have faith.

Put it this way, if I live my life as if there is a God, being a moral and upright man, and when I die and find out there isn't one, I've really lost nothing. I still leave behind a legacy of goodwill and hopefully influenced those who come after me to lead better lives themselves.

If, on the other hand, I live my life as if there is no God, morals and consequences be damned, but then die to find out I was wrong, where would that leave me?

Originally posted by JoshNorton
If, on the other hand, I live my life as if there is no God, morals and consequences be damned, but then die to find out I was wrong, where would that leave me?

Dunn, North Carolina. A beerless, arid wasteland and your just reward.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Dunn, North Carolina. A beerless, arid wasteland and your just reward.

I was always told Hell had free beer, but pay toilets.

reply to post by TheLoneArcher

Please, please, do not judge the majority of us by the actions of a few bad apples.

hello, thanks for you're reply, sorry its taken me so long, been a hectic couple of weeks, don't worry, I definitely don't judge all masons in the same light as my now old boss (just got a new job), I take each person as they are based on how they act towards others, i know that some people can be nasty when they are in stressed/difficult situations, but this guy is something else altogether, and the director that set him on is just as bad. I now just feel sorry for the people I left behind as I was the only one who had the courage to stand up to him,

Unfortunately i never got the chance to ask him if he was a mason, but certain jewellery and other person items, and words he used tell me that he is a mason, but not one of the good ones, there are bad apples in all walks of life, but most of them usually have good inside them, not this guy though,

also with regards to you're quote below,

please do ask him if he is a Mason. If he confirms that he is, please do me a favour and tell him, that his being a lair, cheat, underhand and all the other negative traits you mention, that he is a discrace to the Craft and does not deserve to be a Mason.

i never got chance to ask him if he was a mason, but some months back he pushed me too far and i flipped, (i feel its important to tell you that not so long back i used to be painfully shy), so losing my temper is not something i do easily or enjoy, but i basically told him he was a discrace to the human race, a liar and a cheat among many other things,

from you're reply you do genuinely seem like a good person, i still have issues with the secrecy side of your group but all in all you're just like the rest of us,

thanks for your time

Originally posted by Minnie1985
i still have issues with the secrecy side of your group but all in all you're just like the rest of us,

I guess the only suggestion I might make is to consider what, if any, is the difference between secrecy and privacy.

Matthew 6:6 reads

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

at least in the King James translation. Someone else might translate that same passage as

When you pray, go to your room and close the door. Pray privately to your Father who is with you. Your Father sees what you do in private. He will reward you.

Are these the same meaning?

reply to post by JoshNorton


hello,

to me this is how i'd explain the difference, but this is just my opinion,

privacy, something that is personal to me, something that i don't have to share with anyone, something that no one else needs to know as it would neither benefit or cause detriment to others by keeping it to only myself,

secrecy, withholding information that could benefit or equally cause harm to others, if we were all were given equal opportunities to gain access to ''secrets'' then everyone could make there own mind up about said secrets, but i also understand that many people would abuse this right, which is exactly what has happened for thousands of years, only the people who are totally unaware of the secrets have no idea how they are being used against them, so therefore it is impossible for them to stand there ground

hope this makes sense

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Dunn, North Carolina. A beerless, arid wasteland and your just reward.

I was always told Hell had free beer, but pay toilets.

I may have to re-think my whole strategy. Do you know if it's quarters, or dimes?

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by AussieDingus
If nothing can ever be proven wrong, then why must one believe in a Supreme Being to become a Mason ? The reason i ask is because if nothing can be proven wrong, then isn't there the possibility that there may not be a Supreme Being ?

Of course that's always a possibility. We just choose to have faith.

Put it this way, if I live my life as if there is a God, being a moral and upright man, and when I die and find out there isn't one, I've really lost nothing. I still leave behind a legacy of goodwill and hopefully influenced those who come after me to lead better lives themselves.

If, on the other hand, I live my life as if there is no God, morals and consequences be damned, but then die to find out I was wrong, where would that leave me?

I understand and thank you for your answer. But who is to say that if someone doesn't believe in a God that they will lack in morals and fear no consequence. The reason i ask is that i know many people that claim to not believe in a God but still lead a good and honest life with morals and ethics, and know that todays laws will act as a conqesquence to any of their actions that may be lacking in morals. The fact that we have so many man made laws in society, in my opinion proves that it is man that thinks they are God, and will determine punishment as given. Yet if we are judged by a God at the end of our lives, then why does man interfere so much in between ? I understand that we do need some form of minimum law and order, and as an example i have no problem with speed limits on the road as they make perfect sense, and i have no problem for someone clearly speeding being booked, but what i don't like is how you can have a speed limit change 4 times over a 2km stretch of road, with the changes ranging from 100km/hr down to 60km/hr, then back to 80km/hr and dropping to 60-km/hr again and the police booking drivers that may be 10km/hr over the limit and only 20 metres past a new speed limit sign. That in my opinion is not law and order, that is a blatant abuse of power and revenue raising at its most obvious. I also understand that we need laws so that people can't just walk into a bank with a shotgun and steal other peoples money, but i can't stand the fact that the banks lost millions of dollars of innocent peoples money, or stole it for use of a better word, but they get a bailout to start all over again, but the bank robber that stole a few thousand gets 5-10 in maximum security. Thats not law and order, thats an abuse of position and power and a blatant manipulation of the rules.
But is there any real need for rules such as robbing a bank, or a bank robbing its customers, when the Ten Commandments originally said "thy shall not steal" or something along those lines ? I don't steal from people because i just know its wrong, and that i will be punished under todays laws. If there is a God and i'm judged at the end of my life, then i will be judged either way regardless of my feelings or opinions, but if there is no God and no judgement, then i have also lost nothing.
I still try and live an honest, moral based life, and i believe that should be the focus, rather than whether there is or isn't a God. If there is a God, then we will be judged at the end of lives, if there isn't a God, then we probably won't be judged, but if we still live a morally upright life based on honesty and goodwill then we have lost nothing either if there is no God. Your example only really applies if its someone that doesn't believe in a God and lives their life without morals, ethics, or regard for their fellow man [or woman], yet there are many who don't believe in a God yet are still good morally upright people. I also believe that you can take the message of a, or many religions, and use those as a guide to a better quality of life. But i don't believe you have to believe in that Religion or worship the firguehead chosen for that religion, despite possibly adopting or believing in some of its messages. If we are judged by a God, then we will be judged regardless of whether we attend church on Sunday, or pray to Mecca 5 times a day, or just go on about our lives trying to be as honest and "good" as we can be. If there is no God, then nothing was lost. But there is the argument that a lot of people may of wasted their Sunday mornings or knelt on a carpet praying 5 times a day for no real reason.

Originally posted by Minnie1985
secrecy, withholding information that could benefit or equally cause harm to others...

Being that the Masonic 'secrets' are 5 handshakes and 5 passwords how could you knowing them or not either benefit or harm you respectively?

Originally posted by darkhorserider
So, I wore a Masonic shirt out today. I rarely do it, but I had a light T-shirt, it is comfy, and it is a warm day, so I threw it on.

My first stop was Ace Hardware. At the checkout, the cashier asked if I was a Mason, and I said yes. I asked her if she knew some Masons, and she said, no, but she knew they were good people. I thanked her, and then the lady behind me spoke up. She said she knew Masons supported the Shriners, and her son had a club foot when he was born 15 years ago, and the Shriners Hospital in Tampa fixed the foot for free, and they still see him once every year, and he is running track in high school this year! She gushed about the Shriners and thanked me for my service.

I finished paying, and as I walked out, a man who had overheard the conversation stopped me and asked if I was a Shriner. I said yes, and he said 20 years ago, he and a friend had wrecked a 4-wheeler and his friend ended up underneath of it, against the exhaust and became very badly injured and burned. The local hospitals couldn't handle his injuries, and after being stablized he was flown to Shriners Burn Unit in Houston, where he was treated at no charge, and made a full recovery after several difficult surgeries.

Now, to be honest, this was a little distracting for me. I've heard these stories many, many times, and I was in quite a hurry to get a lot of errands run and yard work done today, but of course I was polite and thanked them for the conversation.

Next stop was the car wash, and as I vacummed my car, a young women from the next stall came over to ask if I was a Mason. I said yes, as I thought of the time ticking away on my vacuum token, and she proceeded to tell me her grandfather was a Mason, and her brother wanted to get involved, and she knew what a quality organization it was, and she hoped her brother would meet some really good role models there. My vacuum time ran out, and I proceeded to give her my name and number, and the numbers of a few other guys that would gladly talk to her brother if he was interested.

This was just one hour wearing a Masonic T-shirt on a Saturday morning.

For those folks that love to criticize, and think the whole world is similar to the internet...

I challenge you!
Put on a Masonic T-shirt one day, and go out into the world.

Don't lie about your affiliation. When folks ask, tell them you are not a Mason, you just like the T-shirt, and then listen to the stories they tell you about Masonry.

The only place Masons are feared and ridiculed is on the internet. In real life, real folks admire and appreciate Masonry, and they have nothing but good things to say about it. Not once in my 10 years as a Mason has a person ever asked if I was a Mason, and then proceeded to ask about conspiracy theories, or huff at my affiliation, or seem taken back, or mentioned anything remotely similar to the stuff on ATS and other sites.

TRY IT! I dare you. But don't do it if you have a lot of yard work to get done!

reply to post by darkhorserider

Doing charity work is the oldest trick in the book to get public support. Outlaw Bikie clubs like the'' hells angels'' do fantastic charity work at kids hospitals.As for Masons being Satanic,I think 95% believe they are in a fraternity and are blissfully unaware of anything else. these 95%[Blue lodgers] and their ignorance acts as a sheild between the high degree masons and the public,[very clever].Read their literature,there is no love in it,no mention of Jesus Christ,and cutting peoples tongues out at midnight,why would you want to hang out with people like that?Honestly their own literature convicts them as Satanic.

reply to post by hymey


Hi, I am one of the 5%. Jesus Christ is mentioned in the Scottish Rite and I believe the York Rite.
In the Blue lodge we talk about God. It's not that we don't like Jesus, we just have lots of different religions running around and not all of them are Jesus followers. Since we aren't a religion, we leave all that stuff to the church, where our members go on Sunday.

No satan, no Baal, no Balphomet, no Lucifer, just God. Sorry to disappoint.

But you keep reading that literature and listening to your preacher. I am sure they know more than an actual member.

reply to post by darkhorserider


I have known a few masons, seemed like alright people. But From all the stories I have heard they are no more likely to be good people. One of my friends granddad was a mason... and a drunk and a racist. A girl I know is estranged from her dad because he put the lodge before his family. And a work mates family broke down after his mason father cheated. As I say, all of the masons I have known seem alright, but I didn't know them well.
It seems like your putting them on a pedestal, maybe its different in America, but most people I talk too just see them as another religion. The Rockefeller foundation does a lot for charity, so did Jimmy Savile... Any organization that wants its members to believe in a deity has some major floors from the start, imo.