A challenge for the Mason haters

Originally posted by EvenParanoidsHaveEnemies

Originally posted by Trublbrwing
reply to post by darkhorserider

 

Any bad press or animosity toward Mason's is the direct result of weird and secret ceremonies carried out in rooms without windows. When secret handshakes and oaths taken under the threat of bodily harm are a requirement for membership in an organization it reeks of sinister intentions.

And you know this to be true because....?

Just asking.

I guess no one can say for sure if its true, because...............well because its a secret isn't it ?

Can we say for sure its true that the Bilderberg group meet to discuss the path the world will go down.........no, but gut instict would tell the average person that with so much security and secrecy behind the meetings, then something more sinister must be going on behind closed doors. Now apply that way of thinking to the Mason's and their secrecy, and you can start to see why people may have the opinion of Mason's that they have, and ask the questions that they ask.

If there are any REAL mason's on here, i would like to ask the following questions. I may have my information wrong and will happily accept it if i am wrong, but here's my questions...........

1. Why do i have to believe in a God or deity to be a potential member ? If this is not true then please feel free to correct me and i will stand corrected if proven wrong. But i have read several times from people claiming to be a mason that you have to believe in a God or deity to be able to join, if so, then why ?

2. Are there any Mason's that have reached the 32nd or 33rd degree that don't have considerable wealth ? The reason i ask, and i'm aware that it may be due to internet coverage, but everytime you hear about a 32nd or a 33rd degree Mason, they are always prominent members of society and always seem to either have, or come from great wealth. Again, if i'm wrong, then i'm more than happy to admit it, so long as some form of proof is provided. And i realise it may only be the prominent members that recieve media or internet coverage, and we never hear of a less prominent or wealthy 32nd or 33rd, but when thats all you see from the outside, then you can't really blame people for at least asking the question.

3. How does a society with secrets go on to produce so many US President's ? The same question that is asked of places like Skull and Bones. How can such a small building with such a small number of members turn out so many US Presidential candidates over the years. We know Skull and Bones is on the Yale campus, and most of us know you only get into Yale unless you have wealthy parents or sponsors, or one of the lucky few to get a scholarship. Yet this small building produced a 2 term President, who was also the son of a previous President, and Skull and Bones member, and also the candidiate he was running against, who happened to be leading the "polls" when he pulled out of the race, handing the "victory" to his fellow membership buddy ?
I'm not saying that Skull and Bones are directly connected to the Mason's, BUT, there seems to be a similar thing happen amongst both "societies"...............the turning out of US Presidents, and in some cases, the opposition candidate as well. When this happens on the scale that it does happen on, then one can't be blamed for at least asking the question of how this can happen.

4. Are lower level Mason's allowed to attend ALL masonic events or meetings, or are there events/meetings that only certain ranking Mason's can attend ? And if there are events that only certaing ranking mason's, or higher, can attend, then how can any Mason speak out, or defend what is happening at those events if they aren't there ? A common argument used against any non-Mason when talking about Mason's !

If any REAL Mason would like to answer these questions, then I look forward to your reply, and if you'd like me to clarify anything i've asked, then feel free to ask. And i don't mean this as an attack on Mason's, i just like to learn and the best way to learn is to ask, and then listen, and then learn ! It's just that from a personal point of view and previous experience, i never trust someone, whether a person or a group, that has secrets. And the more they try and hide those secrets, the more it seems they have to hide ?

If anyone is a real mason on here they're likely at the lowest of the totem poll. They likely have very little insider knowledge beyond what they're local branch leaders tell them, which they themselves probably don't know the whole story either. It's not that different than the mormons. Their temples are locked tight! Not even mormon church members can enter the inner sanctums where the strange rituals go on. And as far as many of the congragation is concerned they believe they are worshipping the Christian God. no different than any other christian when infact there's a huge difference. but anyone can figure that out with some basic google searches.

Originally posted by r2d246
If anyone is a real mason on here they're likely at the lowest of the totem poll.

Which would put you where on the information scale?

Originally posted by violence=answer
Do you like the direction and actions of the united states banking and government (especially in the last few years)?
Would you like to know what single outside organization primarily had members of out government and banking?

Where is Freemasonry involved in all of this? Please give names.

Do you like being lied to by important people?

Who from Freemasonry is doing this?

Do you agree with the Georgia guide stones?

What do the guide stones have to do with Masonry?

How do you feel about secrets and being deceived?

There is nothing wrong with secrets. Nor is secrecy intimately tied to deception.

How about the tactics of divide and conquer and order out of chaos used against our own citizens and others?

Who in the Masons is doing this? What about the Scottish Rite is said to "divide and conquer"? What do you not like about the Scottish Rite?

The great seal of the u.s.?

Wasn't designed by Masons.

reply to post by AussieDingus

Do we not have the right to meet in private?

1. Yes, you do have to have a belief in a Supreme Being; it is one of the Landmarks of Freemasonry. We take Obligations and they are bound by our Faith.

2. I'm a 32° Scottish Rite Mason as well as a member of several other orders of Masonry. I don't have that much money, in fact I'm a college student and I live on a very tight budget. I come from a middle class family (dad is in law enforcement and mother is a nurse).

3. Only 14 of the US Presidents were Masons. The last was Gerald Ford.

4. The whole "lower level" thing is a myth perpetuated by those trying to discredit Masons who oppose anti-Masons. As a Master Mason one is entitled to attend all meetings of his Lodge. A Master Mason can even attend Grand Lodge and I've never been denied entry to any meeting.

And i don't mean this as an attack on Mason's, i just like to learn and the best way to learn is to ask, and then listen, and then learn !

We are happy to have this discussion.

reply to post by r2d246

God bless you, I've been waiting for someone to use the "totem poll (sic)" analogy. Do you not realize that the lowest spot on the totem pole is a place of high honor?

They likely have very little insider knowledge beyond what they're local branch leaders tell them, which they themselves probably don't know the whole story either.

Yeah, that's not quite how everything works, but I should say that I'm a "local branch leader" (HA!) of a few different groups, but then again, Freemasonry doesn't operate in the manner in which you described.

Originally posted by AussieDingus
I guess no one can say for sure if its true, because...............well because its a secret isn't it ?

No, actually. It's not.

1. Why do i have to believe in a God or deity to be a potential member ?

Because we take an oath to be morally good, and the founders of Masonry hundreds of years ago felt that such an oath would have no weight if there was no penalty in the afterlife for those who might break it.

"You're going to promise to be an honest man, and if you're not, then, well, um... you're a doody head." doesn't really have the same motivation as "you're going to be an honest man, and if you're not, then the gates of heaven will never be open for you." (Not that that's the oath, but you get my drift...)

2. Are there any Mason's that have reached the 32nd or 33rd degree that don't have considerable wealth ?

Yes. Most. All it takes to get the 32° is a couple hundred bucks up front for the initiation and then yearly dues thereafter. It's REALLY not a big deal. Most of the Masons on ATS, myself included, are 32° members of the Scottish Rite.

The 33rd degree is an honorary degree, given to members of the Scottish Rite who have shown an outstanding commitment to the Scottish Rite. It's not that rare... I personally know more than 20 members who are... There are about 200 or more that get the honor in the Scottish Rite Southern Jurisdiction (about 35 states) every 2 years. For the most part, it really is about how much work you've put in, but I won't lie... it's quite possible some people got tapped for the honors because they made a big donation, or because they were public figures and it made us look good to honor them.

3. How does a society with secrets go on to produce so many US President's ?

There have been 14 US Presidents who were Freemasons. The last one was Ford, 30+ years ago.

Freemasonry was quite popular in the Enlightenment Era, and though there was a dip in the 1800's when JQ Adams was in the Anti-Masonic Party, by the 1960's one in 20 men in America was a Freemason. Statistically, it makes sense that a certain number of them were politicians.

4. Are lower level Mason's allowed to attend ALL masonic events or meetings, or are there events/meetings that only certain ranking Mason's can attend ?

A 1st degree Mason can only attend 1st degree Meetings. A 2nd degree Mason can attend 1st or 2nd degree meetings. A Master Mason (3rd degree) can attend any of the above.

The York Rite and the Scottish Rite are two entirely different things. I can't speak for the York Rite, but in the Scottish Rite, you go from 3 to 32 in a weekend, so by default, you can attend any Scottish Rite meeting. (There are rare instances where they do 4-14 one weekend, 15-18 another, 19-30 another, and 31 & 32 on yet another, but all the business meetings are open on the 14th degree, so all can attend.

There really aren't 33° only meetings. Even the Supreme Council meetings in Washington DC are open to the public. The only private events are the actual conferral of the degree.

Originally posted by KSigMason
God bless you, I've been waiting for someone to use the "totem poll (sic)" analogy. Do you not realize that the lowest spot on the totem pole is a place of high honor?

As the cornerstone of the building serves as the strength and foundation of all that is built above it.

reply to post by AussieDingus


I feel like you might need some further clarification beyond what I posted above.

Being a 32° or 33° in the Scottish Rite gives one ABSOLUTELY NO POWER, real or implied, over a regular 3° Master Mason.

Joining the Scottish Rite, the York Rite or the Shrine is like taking electives in school. It's additional information you can get if you want it, but that's all.

Also worth noting, there is no national or international structure that governs those first 3 degrees. Each state is sovereign, and the elected Grand Master of a Grand Lodge answers to nobody but his constituents during the one year he serves in elected office.

Structurally speaking, at the lowest level you've got a lodge. Small towns may have one per town. I think there are more than 40 in my city limits. All lodges are chartered by a Grand Lodge. Generally, each state has one Grand Lodge (this is without getting into irregular lodges, Prince Hall, and other stuff... keeping it simple here for point of explanation.)

Someone in Cleveland would be a member of a lodge in Cleveland, and that lodge would be under the direction of the Grand Lodge of Ohio. Now anything that was done Masonically in Ohio would be under the control of the Grand Master of Ohio. If Grand Lodge of New York had a beef with it, there's really nothing they could do about it. They could say "hey, that was a mean thing to do... we don't recognize you." But that's it.

So a 3rd degree Master Mason living in Cleveland also decides to join the Scottish Rite. In a weekend he breezes up to 32°. Hell, he spends enough time there they honor him with a 33rd degree. When he goes back to his regular lodge, he's just a regular joe like everyone else. And when he goes to his Scottish Rite meeting, he's a regular joe like everyone else. Just because he's a 33° doesn't mean he can boss around 32° members. And there's no super-secret knowledge that he gets as a 33 that 32s don't get.

But, say he gets indicted on a felony charge. The Grand Master of Ohio can say, "Hey, we don't let felons be Masons. You're not a Mason anymore." And the Grand Master of Ohio may not even be in the Scottish Rite. He's only a 3°. But because a Scottish Rite Mason MUST FIRST be a regular Mason, if the Grand Master says you're out, no amount of Scottish Rite pageantry will keep you in.

The Scottish Rite has Northern & Southern jurisdictions that act independently of each other. The Scottish Rite Southern Jurisdiction directs Scottish Rite activities through 35 of the US, and the Norther Jurisdiction the rest of the states. They don't really have any conflict between them.

The head of the Southern Jurisdiction, in charge of hundreds of thousands of Scottish Rite Masons including all of the 33° in those 35 states is a guy named Ronald Seale. He's from Louisiana. If he pissed off the Grand Master of Louisiana, he could be stripped of his Masonic membership and could no longer lead the Scottish Rite.

Can we say for sure its true that the Bilderberg group meet to discuss the path the world will go down.........no, but gut instict would tell the average person that with so much security and secrecy behind the meetings, then something more sinister must be going on behind closed doors. Now apply that way of thinking to the Mason's and their secrecy, and you can start to see why people may have the opinion of Mason's that they have, and ask the questions that they ask.

Freemasonry isn't anything like that, though. Masonic "security" is an old guy with a blunt sword outside the door. You can walk into any Masonic dinner and you'll probably get a plate and all your questions answered. The only secrets in Freemasonry are the passwords, grips and obligations.

1. Why do i have to believe in a God or deity to be a potential member ?

The lessons of Freemasonry concern themselves with God, and reference Him on several occasions.

2. Are there any Mason's that have reached the 32nd or 33rd degree that don't have considerable wealth ?

Here's a picture of a group of 33rds. Those suits aren't silk.

(In all seriousness, check out Art deHoyos or Brent Morris or Chris Hodapp. None particularly wealthy, all three terrific servants of the Craft and the Scottish Rite.)

everytime you hear about a 32nd or a 33rd degree Mason, they are always prominent members of society and always seem to either have, or come from great wealth.

Other way around. Every time someone attains a certain amount of wealth or influence, someone on the Internet finds a tenuous connection to Masonry, or invents one.

3. How does a society with secrets go on to produce so many US President's ?

14 really isn't a lot.

The same question that is asked of places like Skull and Bones. How can such a small building with such a small number of members turn out so many US Presidential candidates over the years.

4 candidates over 175 years isn't really so many either.

We know Skull and Bones is on the Yale campus, and most of us know you only get into Yale unless you have wealthy parents or sponsors, or one of the lucky few to get a scholarship.

Actually, Yale is need-blind; roughly 750 students admitted per year don't pay a dime.

Yet this small building produced a 2 term President, who was also the son of a previous President, and Skull and Bones member, and also the candidiate he was running against, who happened to be leading the "polls" when he pulled out of the race, handing the "victory" to his fellow membership buddy ?

John Kerry didn't "pull out" while leading the polls. He lost the election.

I'm not saying that Skull and Bones are directly connected to the Mason's, BUT, there seems to be a similar thing happen amongst both "societies"...............the turning out of US Presidents, and in some cases, the opposition candidate as well. When this happens on the scale that it does happen on, then one can't be blamed for at least asking the question of how this can happen.

Once again, it's the other way around. Someone on the Internet invents or stretches connections when anomalies arise.

Are lower level Mason's allowed to attend ALL masonic events or meetings, or are there events/meetings that only certain ranking Mason's can attend ?

By rule in most states, blue lodge business is restricted to Master Masons, so technically, the two "lower levels", Entered Apprentice and Fellowcraft, are unable to attend most meetings. However, each candidate is elected to receive all three degrees, including the Master Mason degree, the earlier two being prepatory degrees.

Once a Master Mason, a Mason can apply to the York or Scottish Rite, whose meetings are of course only open to members of those Rites. These do not have any authority over the blue lodge, and in fact are subordinate to them. A Master Mason can attend any meetings with bearing on the blue lodge, including Grand Lodge sessions.

And if there are events that only certaing ranking mason's, or higher, can attend, then how can any Mason speak out, or defend what is happening at those events if they aren't there ? A common argument used against any non-Mason when talking about Mason's !

The problem is, people just assume this "inner circle" exists, and they found it when we couldn't because we're dumb.

i never trust someone, whether a person or a group, that has secrets. And the more they try and hide those secrets, the more it seems they have to hide ?

There's very little that's actually secret. Mostly, people assume they'll be lied to, so they never ask, come to conclusions based on faulty information, and assuming people are "being secretive" or "aren't in the know" when they don't confirm their faulty assumptions.

Originally posted by r2d246
If anyone is a real mason on here they're likely at the lowest of the totem poll. They likely have very little insider knowledge beyond what they're local branch leaders tell them, which they themselves probably don't know the whole story either. It's not that different than the mormons. Their temples are locked tight! Not even mormon church members can enter the inner sanctums where the strange rituals go on. And as far as many of the congragation is concerned they believe they are worshipping the Christian God. no different than any other christian when infact there's a huge difference. but anyone can figure that out with some basic google searches.

edit on 5-11-2012 by r2d246 because: (no reason given)

Basic google searches reveal the truth, but the guys that are actually there in the room don't know what they're talking about. I'm confused.

I've been to several Grand Lodge meetings, and they are pretty boring, but I did get a couple of chances to speak my mind. I've also been to some of the craziest, weirdest, strangest rituals. Just this past weekend we had a "Rusty Nail" degree, I've also attended "Hillbilly" degrees, and the famous "Chitlin" degree that often brings visits from many Past and Current Grand Masters.

I don't know what being a Mormon would have to do with anything, but if a Mormon were a Master Mason, they would definitely be admitted to our sanctum sanctorum just like any other MM. If you'd like to employ your all-knowing Google God, you'll see that there is no more of an inner circle than that.

I have to admit though, we do lock the doors. We even have a special ritual for it, one guy says to another guy, who opens the inner door and invites the guard in, and just before he does, he usually says, "Make sure the door is locked." It is pretty high tech stuff, ours even has a deadbolt!

Originally posted by JoshNorton
The York Rite and the Scottish Rite are two entirely different things. I can't speak for the York Rite, but in the Scottish Rite, you go from 3 to 32 in a weekend, so by default, you can attend any Scottish Rite meeting. (There are rare instances where they do 4-14 one weekend, 15-18 another, 19-30 another, and 31 & 32 on yet another, but all the business meetings are open on the 14th degree, so all can attend.

Many York Rite bodies hold Festivals (Reunions) where one can attain the degrees and orders in two to three days. Some are starting to change this and require one to move one degree at a time, usually one each month so within a year you could be a member of all 3 bodies.

Originally posted by KSigMason
Many York Rite bodies hold Festivals (Reunions) where one can attain the degrees and orders in two to three days. Some are starting to change this and require one to move one degree at a time, usually one each month so within a year you could be a member of all 3 bodies.

How about meetings. Chapter, Council & Commandary have separate stated meetings? Can a Mark Master, for instance, attend a Chapter meeting? Or do you have to be Royal Arch to attend/vote?

Are there any REAL Masons here, like Shriners, or is everyone a low level "Porch Mason"?

Originally posted by magickmaster
Are there any REAL Masons here, like Shriners, or is everyone a low level "Porch Mason"?

What makes Shriners any more REAL than anyone else? It's just another side club that ANY "Porch Mason" can join if they're willing to pay the dues… Personally, I've outgrown getting drunk and dressing like a clown, so I've never seen the appeal of joining.

reply to post by JoshNorton

Each body chooses how it opens. Mine have one body open full form and the other two open short form (waiving signs and ceremonies...) which for us means the Commandery opens 4-meetings and the Chapter and Council each open 3-meetings. You have to be a Royal Arch Mason to attend the meetings, and same goes for the other two.

reply to post by magickmaster

I'm a real Mason, but I'm not in the Shrine. The Shrine doesn't denote "real Mason". A Mason doesn't need to go beyond the Blue Lodge to show dedication and be involved. Plus there is more to Masonry than just the Shriners. The York Rite and Scottish Rite are older than the Shriners, and just like those two Rites, one needs only be a Master Mason in good standing to join.

While I do enjoy drinking and having a good time, I have no desire to join the Shriners at this point in my life.

Originally posted by darkhorserider
reply to post by BlueNose

 

It would never happen that way.

If a Mason in my lodge killed a kid intentionally, the brother Masons would be right there to see him hang! In fact, commiting a felony of any sort, including just basic drug charges would get a Mason kicked out of the fraternity immediately, and no man is allowed in the Masons if they have a record.

I've heard the stories of Masons getting off charges, because the judge was a Mason, but they are just stories. I've been given speeding tickets from guys that are brothers in my own Lodge, LOL! We've also kicked guys out of my lodge after they were arrested for domestic violence, even though the charges later got dropped. Enough guys knew that there was something to the charges, that we didn't want him in our organization.

You are so full of it.
Masons always help other Masons in legal matters. My girlfriend and I used to travel around the country with mason plates on our car, because the police would not pull us over this way. We sold drugs on Dead tour, and got busted down south. Got our Van impounded by the police, who were holding us on several felonies. Had to get back west, and get our Van out of impound. They wanted $2500 for them to release it. I got on the phone and told them, "you see those plates on the back of that car?" - Yes, he replied. Well, my father and grandfather are Masons and i'm also a Mason and where I come from, we do things for our fellow bothers", and he told me, "Is that the organization that has all those secrets?" - I responded, "I don't know about any secrets, but we help each other when we can and look after each other", and he told me this...."Well you bring $500 down here and you can get your car, and juts consider it a donation to the right organization"

We'll, in fact I lied all the way, and got over on them pretty good, only because I study my stuff real well. I was barely a teenager at the time, and fooled the crap out of those police, but if I had no told them I was a member, I would have had to pay FULL PRICE!

THAT IS CRIMINAL OF THE MASONS!!!! (An Oath to the Brotherhood is HIGHER than their oaths to the Constitution and the People!

reply to post by magickmaster


Congratulations. You are a self admitted drug dealer, and liar. A real pillar of the community.
I look forward to you telling me how bad I am in the future.

reply to post by magickmaster


Do you even realize how many problems there are in your story. For one, you admit to being a criminal, and then accuse the masons of being bad/evil/scum/whatever, while you claim to be part of everything you accuse them of, and actually, you claim even more than what you accuse them of.

That's if the story is true, however, masons have rings and handshakes. I'm not a mason myself, but the few that I know are not so dumb that dropping the name of the organization would make them believe someone was a fellow mason. Maybe if you had a ring, and a decent amount of inside knowledge... And weren't getting arrested or your car impounded.

But where are we again, oh yeah, you telling us how bad the masons are for all your crimes...



After of course you said this:

reply to post by magickmaster

 

I would never wear a Masonic shirt out anywhere, because I would not want to be lynched, followed home, have my children stalked, or have my relatives killed. In other words, I do not want to be hated by society, so I would never do that.

And I do not like being spit on either.

reply to post by boncho


Furthermore, it's clear from his story that the cop he was dealing with wasn't a Mason, so even if it was true, it would be the case of a non-Mason helping a pretend Mason out, which is the whole point of the T-shirt challenge.

reply to post by magickmaster

reply to post by magickmaster

There's no evidence to back your story. It's only your word and why should we trust a drug-dealing felon who admits to lying? Plus, you're story proves nothing other than you'll do whatever it takes to get out of trouble.

How do we know the cop was a Mason? You never said so if anything this was a lying non-Mason pulling the wool over another non-Mason so your point is moot. Plus, it was only criminal of YOU since you are the one who lied. Nor do our Oaths and Obligations overpower our oaths we take if we are public service.

You have no leg to stand on on this issue. Your story is full of more holes than Swiss cheese. You also seem to have some conflicting posts about the Masons and your using them. You don't seem like a person with much integrity. You're story is essentially, you committed a crime, lost your vehicle, lied about being a Mason to a non-Mason to get your car back, and then you condemn the Masons for corrupt behavior. Yeah, that sounds totally legit.

Originally posted by Sauron
Sir if the car or van? with the Masonic license plates attached to it was impounded as you say.

It would only have been released to the legal tittle owner of the vehicle, not your girlfriend or yourself.
Unless the car/van was yours, but you stole the plates as well.

An excellent point.