Idealism vs. Materialism - Who Wins?

I think Quantum Mechanics has really brought this question to the forefront. QM has strengthened Idealist and has given Materialist a headache. Getting to the "truth" is like debating what happened when Jesus walked the earth. People will lead with their belief systems. Let's look at both.

QM has given Idealist a big boost. QM clearly tells us there's an immaterial aspect to reality. This has led to theories of Quantum Consciousness and I just saw a Through the Wormhole that asked is the universe itself conscious. Is the Universe a hologram or a quantum computer? Are there parallel universes? Are we in a simulation? Is non locality and entanglement connected to Psi?

You then have the Materialist.

Most Materialist are atheist and secularist. This is why QM gives them headaches. Anything that sounds remotely like religion or spirituality has to be opposed. Materialist are out to kill consciousness and the observer. I remember reading David Deutsch's book The Fabric of Reality and one of the reasons he likes Many Worlds because it reduces the role of the Observer. It doesn't but this shows that it's about personal belief and I believe Deutsch is an atheist. The reason Many Worlds is so appealing is because it's the Materialists last hope for sanity.

The Materialist realized that science had found God. There had to be a Creator if the universe was a one shot deal. It would be like marking a penny with a black marker then covering the earth with trillions of pennies and then giving a person one shot to pick the penny that has been marked. This is impossible and many scientist realized this. So the way you get around it is if a billion people were picking a penny then you have a better chance at finding the penny that was marked.

In the end, I side with the Idealist. The Idealist are exploring and expanding knowledge while the Materialist are trying to suppress it if it conflicts with their belief system.

Even with Many Worlds you have to deal with Reincarnation, Life after Death, Quantum Immortality and more. We have lived these lives as well as others many times before and it will continue to happen ad infinitum. So whether it's God or the Laws of Physics, both say we're eternal.

reply to post by neoholographic


Idealism is more forgiving, considering materialism involves a love of things that inevitably break down. That means you never really find perfection. Idealism, on the other hand, allows you to see what's important in life.

In the end, I'd rather die with a thousand memories than a thousand dollars. Money doesn't do much for you when death is on your doorstep, but memories can keep you company forever.

For an idealist, life is about something abstract such as "love" or "peace". For a materialist it is about success, getting "things".

Most western scientists are materialists so they ten to "hide" information about the "field" of possibility giving form to all (mind). The scientists which DO make spiritual discoveries such as the importance of DNA and other stuff seems to not become mainstream as most mainstreM scientists are like a Hana and will not
Air review if they dco not like the informaition regardless of hoe true it may be..

To answer your question, idealism has to end because materials never last, they always break down and pass away.

reply to post by arpgme

To answer your question, idealism has to end because materials never last, they always break down and pass away.

Don't you mean materialism has to end? Ideas never die unless they don't work. Even then, they only go to sleep.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I meant to say, Idealism has to WIN because materials always break down and then. You have to chase another in an endless cycle. I think the best idealism is the belief in Giving, not just materials but your blessings (thoughts) and words (advice) , and loving actions.

Originally posted by neoholographic
The Materialist realized that science had found God. There had to be a Creator if the universe was a one shot deal. It would be like marking a penny with a black marker then covering the earth with trillions of pennies and then giving a person one shot to pick the penny that has been marked. This is impossible and many scientist realized this. So the way you get around it is if a billion people were picking a penny then you have a better chance at finding the penny that was marked.

In the end, I side with the Idealist. The Idealist are exploring and expanding knowledge while the Materialist are trying to suppress it if it conflicts with their belief system.

Even with Many Worlds you have to deal with Reincarnation, Life after Death, Quantum Immortality and more. We have lived these lives as well as others many times before and it will continue to happen ad infinitum. So whether it's God or the Laws of Physics, both say we're eternal.

I'm missing your point where QM leads to intelligent design, reincarnation or life after death. QM suggests that there can be infinite number of universes with an infinite number of types. Ours just happens to be one of those types and so I'm failing to see intelligent design when random odds explains it without the need for any higher power help.

Also Hawking suggests that there is no god since time was not in existence before our universe was created.

The universe can one day disappear into nothingness too. QM suggests that also. Lastly when the universe came into existence there was basically just Hydrogen. After billions of years of massive stars going super nova the other 92 natural elements were created within those super nova...Carbon, the building block of life, being one of them, so where does our eternal soul fit into all of this?

Are they not one in the same?

Materialism is based on objects - all things.

Idealism is based on ideas - or thought.

But thought is a passing "thing" with a life of it's own.

So...

If all things pass - so do ideas. So does idealism (unless there are humans (more things) there to pass it on to other humans).

So in the end materialism AND idealism pass IMO - as they are based on passing "things" (a thought and/or an object)

I think SPACE wins - no thought no thing yet the source of all that comes and goes.

/mind explode

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
but memories can keep you company forever.

So how are those 14.5 billion years of memories doing?

reply to post by Xtrozero


Don't get smart with me. You know what I mean.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity

Don't get smart with me. You know what I mean.

My point is when you die you leave behind that nice new car and your memories, so I fail to see a difference between the two.

reply to post by Xtrozero

My point is when you die you leave behind that nice new car and your memories, so I fail to see a difference between the two.

My point is the memories are what make you who you are, not the money. And if it's the money that makes you who you are, then I have no desire to make your acquaintance.

It's about legacy. We're all going to die and we cannot change that fact. So what is left for us is the mark that we manage to leave on this world while we are here... the influences we exert on the generation that follows us. If we're lucky, maybe even another several generations after that.

Personally I would rather leave a legacy that served as a diagram of compassion and coexistence with others than to leave my progeny with an artificial sense of wealth based entitlement. This is something I feel is necessary for the world - more than my own offspring. And, yes, there are many people out there who are happily teaching their children to blindly and gleefully rob those who would try to be compassionate... family cultures based upon superiority and a belief that they matter more than others.

In my eyes to play that game would make me no better than that which I despise. Greed may win battles, but it will not win the war. Greed always topples and falls. Integrity is a commodity that never decreases in value.

So... idealism trumps materialism IMO.

~Heff

I believe that both are the same thing looking for the same answers. Personally, I have a problem with both sides of the spectrum:

Materialists seem desperate to keep everything within the confines of a little box and tend to refuse to explore on their own. It simply does not matter, they will not accept anything other than what mainstream science says. They will not accept that perhaps paranormal phenomena has a natural explanation and simply leave it at that. No, it must all be explained away, and they cling to those explanations no matter ill at ease the fit is. Because it's better than accepting that there is something that we don't yet understand, lest they become an idealist. Their greatest strength, logic and common sense, is also their greatest weakness, as it makes them inflexible and obtuse.

Idealists are worse in that they refuse to accept a natural explanation for things. Everything has to be woo-woo and mystical, and these people believe almost anything no matter how silly it is to anybody with a reasonable perspective. Anybody attempting to point out the obviousness of a fake or a flaw is brushed aside as simply being a negative nancy or a sheep or something. Because it is better than accepting that not all mystical mumbo jumbo is true, lest they become a materialist. Their greatest strength, their curiosity and need to explore, are also their greatest weakness because they are ungrounded and easily duped by silly things.

Both ends of the spectrum give me a headache, and the truth is that nobody wins. It is only when I combine them both that I begin to get a picture of the world that actually makes sense to me.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Xtrozero

 

My point is when you die you leave behind that nice new car and your memories, so I fail to see a difference between the two.

My point is the memories are what make you who you are, not the money. And if it's the money that makes you who you are, then I have no desire to make your acquaintance.

When you thik about it, even in thatsituation materialism wins. If money makes you greedy, them this belief that you have to keep taking and taking is an idea and so is the idea of helping others so maybe idealism is the truth no matter whatsome just happen toj follow. Bad ideas in regards to materials such as greed.

In my understanding both ideas and actions are necessary. Stepping back from the this versus that and viewing the complete picture this life would be an unbalanced equation if one or the other was omitted. In the short term one might be more necessary than another in order to restore an already lost balance. But at some point in order to maintain the balance it has to give way to the other. The better we we become at recognizing the center/turning/tipping point between the two the more balanced we become.

Just thoughts

much love

Originally posted by AfterInfinity

My point is the memories are what make you who you are, not the money. And if it's the money that makes you who you are, then I have no desire to make your acquaintance.

I don't think either makes you who you are.

reply to post by Xtrozero


Memories do not exist, every time you think of the past you are actually recreating it sort if like visualizing.

scientists did a test of taking a picture and photoshoppingit in a subtle way and they got the person. To actually ave memories as if it were exactly that way. I can't find the article on tis ut it was on LiveScience.

Who you are is the same thing that I am in reality.Stillness calmness from which impulses of thoughts, emotions, and intentions arise...

Don't confuse materialism with greed. Philosophical Materialsim isn't the constant striving for material gain. Here's where the two get confused:

materialism |məˈti(ə)rēəˌlizəm|
noun
1 a tendency to consider material possessions and physical comfort as more important than spiritual values.
2 Philosophy the doctrine that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications.
• the doctrine that consciousness and will are wholly due to material agency. See also dialectical materialism.

Materialism cannot exist without Idealism and vice versa. A man cannot think about idealism without existing and experiencing material things. Materialism cannot be fathomed without memory and thought. Both ideas and the physical experience rely on each other; both are needed to understand anything (read Locke's An Essay Concerning Human Understanding and Hume's A Treatese of Human Nature for a great breakdown.)

Idealism as a metaphysic however is borderline absurd, and was used by philosophers (Berkley in The Three Dialogues), at least in my opinion, to justify their religious beliefs. Although it is very logically sound, the idea that everything, at its fundamental level, is composed of "ideas," much in line with Plato's forms, is an astounding conclusion to anyone living. It is the result thousands of years of Plato's influence on religion and philosophy.

One should read up on the 'isms' he likes to argue for. I provided links to both points of view.

(A great read on the idealism vs. materialism debate and western philosophy in general is Bertrand Russel's History of Western Philosophy)

You evolve as you age. Wisdom and experience win out in the end depending on your life experiences, there are exceptions. These things constantly change, you have children then grandchildren. Nobody stays one or the other all their lives. Life,Death,Rich,Poor,Sickness,Pain,Love,Hate, Happiness, all contribute to how you view the world and it is always changing the way you think. There are no exceptions to the fact.

reply to post by jimmiec


Or you can let the way you think change your emotions. if you have sadness you can just. Refocus on the situation in a less disappointing way, so emotions do not effect the way you see the world, your beliefs, thoughts, perspective, determine the emotions you feel which is why many people can experience different emotions in the same situation.