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Abortion - Free Will and Responsibility of Women, NOT Mankind

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posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 10:26 AM
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Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by Quadrivium
 

A Fetus becomes a Human Being the Moment it achieves Sentience. Such sentience is limited yet it still exists.
Split Infinity


Which is when exactly?




posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 12:16 PM
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Originally posted by Egyptia
For me there is no argument here because life is life, so how can I argue that a life is dead if it is alive? I cannot find any way around that. For me that is not logical.


I do understand your dilemma, and I personally wasn't attacking your viewpoint or opinion as much as I was demonstrating how it is not a black or white issue.

Life is life, sure..but life in itself as a concept is not sacred...else we would all starve to death trying not to step on a plant.

For me, I also struggled with this issue in my early years..Finally I decided to drop my moralistic (programmed) view and instead take a more scientific approach...the philosophical question of what is a person came to mind..(actually, this came from considering artificial intelligence, it just transended into many areas once the decision was made that life = free thought, experience).

I can make a robot with biochemical components that has a heart like ours, skin, blood, etc...yet without a brain, it is simply a machine..
This is the simple answer..no functioning brain = not a person.

I do look forward when tech enables us to simply not fertilize an egg to begin with unless it is purposefully done (must take actions to do it verses the current inaction). Then we can discuss if a advanced AI is a person


(that should be a interesting convo)



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 04:27 PM
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Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by Bone75
 

You state agreeing to disagree is pointless because you have ZERO RESPECT for anyone else's beliefs.


You are absolutely CORRECT. I am arguing the point that a new human life begins at conception, and I have ZERO RESPECT for anyone's "beliefs" in this matter... including my own.

What you keep referring to as my beliefs are in fact education and understanding, both of which you could use a healthy dose of based on your answers to my questions.



You believe it is pointless as you access ZERO VALUE upon others concepts and beliefs as you only see value in your concepts and beliefs.


On this one you are INCORRECT. You are saying that I access no value to others concepts and beliefs, when in fact I access NEGATIVE VALUE to concepts and beliefs that contradict and distort the TRUTH.



This is tragic...just plain sad. It is also the reason why there is so much strife in the World as people such as yourself would rather FORCE others to believe as you do rather than have mutual respect of the VAST numbers of varying beliefs.


What's tragic is people like you twisting the FACTS to support your hocus pocus beliefs. You do this because you are used to arguing this topic with Christians, which is apparent in the rest of your post.



You are going against everything that you hold so dear and have become what your Moral Standards are based upon. I wish you could see this. Split Infinity


Once again, I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN.

Here's your dose of education and understanding:


Originally posted by Bone75
Do you agree that upon the moment of conception a NEW human life form, with its own DNA is created?
Yes or No

Do you agree that the DNA contained in my blood today is a carbon-copy of the DNA created at the moment of my conception?
Yes or No


Your answer to both was NO.

This should clear up both and show you that your answers are WRONG...



DNA is a long molecule, which stays in the nucleus of the cell where it is “written” all the information needed for the cell to work well. If it is a cardiac cell, DNA will give instructions so it works as a cardiac cell; if it is a brain cell, the instruction is to work as a brain cell.

The DNA molecule is similar to a stair: there are two banisters and some steps linking the banisters. The steps are the variable part of the DNA, represented by the letters A, T, G and C – which are the organic compounds adenine, thymine, cytosine, and guanine, respectively. These letters are in a sequence that only a cell can read and each sequence is named gene.

For a proper reading, the cell sends a copy of the gene outside the nucleus under the shape of RNA.

In the cytoplasm there are elements (ribosomes) capable of reading the RNA and when it happens, we say that the gene is expressing, because the gene expresses its information by the RNA. Many genes can be read at the same time. From this set of information that the reading offers, various characteristics are set, as the shape of the face, the size of the body, the color of the eyes, etc. These characteristics are known as phenotype.

Because of its great length, the DNA has to roll up until it gets very “tight” to fit in the cell, forming a structure named chromosome. Every species of living beings has a number of chromosomes, the human species possesses 46. Half of the chromosome is taken after the mother, 23, and the other half after the father.

In the reproductive organs of the woman (ovarian) and the men (testicles) there are cells specialized in generating gametes (cells that possess 23 chromosomes): egg and sperm. The process by which a cell with 46 chromosomes produces other cells with 23 chromosomes is called meiosis.

When the egg and the sperm meet within the uterus, they form the zygote (with 46 chromosomes), it is our first cell. Once generated, the zygote starts to multiply, forming identical cells. For a cell to produce two, it has first of all to duplicate all the structures existing inside the cell, including the DNA. Replication is the name of the process in which DNA duplicates, mitosis though is the name given to the whole cell duplication.

After the whole process, the cells start forming different types of organs: muscles, bones, intestine, liver, etc. When this organism is complete, after developing and growing, it is birth time.

Generally, during our lifetime, if some damage destroys a cell, it is replaced from the cells existing by mitosis. For example: if a kidney cell is ruined, a cell from this organ, identical to the one lost, multiplies and generates an identical cell. This is a coordinated and synchronized process, if this harmony is somehow threatened, the diseases may occur.


Source

Agreeing to disagree is not an option in the face of facts.

edit on 22-11-2012 by Bone75 because: (no reason given)
edit on 22-11-2012 by Bone75 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 06:43 PM
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Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by Egyptia
For me there is no argument here because life is life, so how can I argue that a life is dead if it is alive? I cannot find any way around that. For me that is not logical.


I do understand your dilemma, and I personally wasn't attacking your viewpoint or opinion as much as I was demonstrating how it is not a black or white issue.

Life is life, sure..but life in itself as a concept is not sacred...else we would all starve to death trying not to step on a plant.

For me, I also struggled with this issue in my early years..Finally I decided to drop my moralistic (programmed) view and instead take a more scientific approach...the philosophical question of what is a person came to mind..(actually, this came from considering artificial intelligence, it just transended into many areas once the decision was made that life = free thought, experience).

I can make a robot with biochemical components that has a heart like ours, skin, blood, etc...yet without a brain, it is simply a machine..
This is the simple answer..no functioning brain = not a person.

I do look forward when tech enables us to simply not fertilize an egg to begin with unless it is purposefully done (must take actions to do it verses the current inaction). Then we can discuss if a advanced AI is a person


(that should be a interesting convo)


There is no doubt how deep a subject this is for everything else that connects itself to it via possibilities and all the complexities associated with it. It presents a very deep personal struggle that tells more about the story of our internal workings than it does about the potentials and the science.

It pushes us towards our internal battles that highlights the deeper questions as to everything that we are in the universe. None of these profound battles in the mind and soul can be ignored in light of a subject such as this.

Intensely deep subject that lends itself to a philosophical discourse into the increased exponential possibilies it presents within the realm of human destiny, spirit, science, G-d and the battle of where everything lies. A personal journey wherein we must each find the answers for ourselves.

A profound subject to be sure.

edit on 22-11-2012 by Egyptia because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 07:02 PM
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Abortion rate has gone down 5% according to Infowars.com

www.infowars.com...

Live and let live.



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 08:08 PM
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Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by Quadrivium
 

A Fetus becomes a Human Being the Moment it achieves Sentience. Such sentience is limited yet it still exists.
Split Infinity

split, you are so very, very predictable.
I asked the question because I KNEW you would give this answer.
This answer is the flaw in your so called "logic" and "math".
The math depends on who is setting the values in the equation.
By claiming that a baby is not an actual person until they are sentient, you are interjecting YOUR BELIEFS where the do not belong.
How would you answer the following?

When a woman has an abortion, is A human LIFE removed?

Remember this new human life already has It's own unique DNA.

I would also like to hear your thoughts on when human development begins.



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 08:30 PM
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reply to post by Bone75
 



You do this because you are used to arguing this topic with Christians, which is apparent in the rest of your post.

Hey! I RESEMBLE that remark


Bone, split has something against those of religion. I have seen several post of his, not only in this thread, where he is talking down to those of faith.
Many, many times I find that atheist and /or die hard evolutionist have an "elitist" attitude towards anyone of faith or those of whom do not agree with them.
I do not know if split is either or both, I am just commenting on my own observations.

I will say, that as a Christian, I do not have to use my faith to make an argument against abortion.
This is more than I can say for many who claim not to be of faith.
Quad



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 08:57 PM
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Originally posted by Bone75

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by Quadrivium
 

A Fetus becomes a Human Being the Moment it achieves Sentience. Such sentience is limited yet it still exists.
Split Infinity


Which is when exactly?


If you have read any of my previous posts on this topic...I have stated that it is important for us to find out with a Plus and Minus amount of time the exact moment a Fetus becomes SENTIENT as this information would be valuable for a Woman to make a properly informed decision.
Split Infinity



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 09:25 PM
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reply to post by Bone75
 

Whatever. You are too confined in your emotional responses and beliefs for any constructive debate to be held.
Split Infinity



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 10:24 PM
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Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by SaturnFX
 

You know I have noticed that those who appose abortion are to a vast degree Pro Death Penalty. I personally am Pro Death Penalty but only in cases where there is not a SHRED OF REASONABLE DOUBT...as well as OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE...such as MULTIPLE WITNESSES.

This reality that the Majority of those who are against Abortion but are Pro Death Penalty seem to be in conflict with the concept of PRO LIFE.

I have asked some people who hold these beliefs why they have no issue with the Death Penalty but are outraged by the idea of abortion or a person who is Terminally Ill having the ability to End their Life with Dignity. Their responses where boarder line VIOLENT.

I find that these types of responses are typical of people who profess their Morality based upon their Religious Beliefs yet their responses and actions are in TOTAL CONFLICT with those Religious Beliefs. To make matter worse they actually have made an argument that in their mind JUSTIFIES violent action against those who they vilify such as Planned Parenthood Doctors or Doctors or Government Leaders and U.S. Judges who create Laws or create president of Law that goes against their Moral Beliefs.

Such attitudes are central to a wide variety of problems created by such intolerance in the World.
Split Infinity


My little brother was shot 5 times in his face by his best friend. We could've pushed for the death penalty due to other circumstances involved, but we decided to let him rot in jail. Death would've been too easy.

So from an anti-abortionist who has actually had the option of choosing the death penalty, I'd say this is a good time for a facepalm.



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 10:42 PM
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Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by Bone75
 

Whatever. You are too confined in your emotional responses and beliefs for any constructive debate to be held.
Split Infinity



Should I say it again Quad?



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 11:19 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 11:47 PM
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Originally posted by SplitInfinity

Originally posted by Bone75

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by Quadrivium
 

A Fetus becomes a Human Being the Moment it achieves Sentience. Such sentience is limited yet it still exists.
Split Infinity


Which is when exactly?


If you have read any of my previous posts on this topic...I have stated that it is important for us to find out with a Plus and Minus amount of time the exact moment a Fetus becomes SENTIENT as this information would be valuable for a Woman to make a properly informed decision.
Split Infinity


Don't you think we should've had that down to a science long before allowing abortions?

If it turns out that science can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that sentience is achieved at 6 weeks, would you oppose abortions after 6 weeks? 12 weeks?



posted on Nov, 23 2012 @ 12:12 AM
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reply to post by Quadrivium
 

You are making the statement that a Fertilized Egg is a Human Being. You actually used the word...BABY to describe a Fertilized Egg. It is neither. A Fertilized Egg is just what the words state it is...a Human Egg Cell that has been penetrated by at least one Sperm Cell. This is all it is at this point and cannot even be classified as a Potential Human Life until it has implanted itself in the uterine wall.

It is you who has incorrectly assigned a VALUE as you have stated this Fertilized Egg is a BABY...it is NOT.

A Human Being is not a partial construct of cells nor is it a Fetus that has not gained SENTIENCE. In fact a Human Life encompasses a Body with a Working Mind that is Sentient as well as having a symbiotic relationship with various Non-Human Lifeforms such as various Bacteria and other Single or Multiple Cell Lifeforms that exist in the Digestive Track that without a Human Being could not live.

As an analogy...a Butterfly does not exist as a Caterpillar. It also does not yet exist as the caterpillar morphs into a Pupa. The Pupa is a Potential Butterfly but is NOT A BUTTERFLY.

The same can be stated for a Fetus that is not yet developed or has not yet become SENTIENT.

Logic is not your best attribute. Split Infinity



posted on Nov, 23 2012 @ 12:15 AM
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reply to post by Bone75
 

This is your beliefs and you certainly have a right to them. You do NOT have a right to dictate MY beliefs. Such an action would result in a SMACKDOWN! Split Infinity



posted on Nov, 23 2012 @ 12:20 AM
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reply to post by Bone75
 

I have told you that I am not in favor of any abortions save Rape, Incest or in the case that it endangers the Woman's Health.

These are just MY beliefs and have NO BEARING...just as your beliefs HAVE NO BEARING...upon the RIGHTS OF A WOMAN TO CHOOSE. This is the LAW...and a GOOD LAW at that.

It is not your or my business nor do we or should we have any say in the choice of any Woman. Whatever your beliefs...it does not matter as you HAVE NO RIGHTS WHAT SO EVER IN THIS MATTER.

Split Infinity



posted on Nov, 23 2012 @ 01:01 AM
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reply to post by Bone75
 

I am in favor of making Plan B as well as the Morning After Pill easily and widely available as these methods of contraception would dramatically cut down on abortions.

But again...what I or YOU think or believe bears no weight upon this issue. Your statements and beliefs are neither acceptable to the Vast Majority of Women nor are they acceptable to the LAW.

You have the right of expressing your opinions or beliefs...but have NO RIGHTS as far as it having any effect upon Women's Right To Choose.

As far as this topic is concerned...it is simply a topic for debate and NOTHING MORE. LAWS determine what a person can or cannot do and one time bans on abortion showed by History to do more BAD than GOOD as a Woman who did not want to be pregnant was put into the unfortunate situation of having such abortions done in back alleys and done by unskilled individuals.

The LAW was changed to solve these issues and has stayed and will stay as a LAW that backs a woman's right to choose. Despite efforts to change this LAW via Conservatives efforts to place more Conservative Judges on the Supreme Court of The United States...these efforts have failed and for the foreseeable future this will not change. It has been calculated that do to the current people on the Supreme Court and what the thought beliefs of these people are...there not be any possible change for at least 25 Years. It is also thought that once this period passes...people in general will have GROWN UP to the point that such obvious rights will not be challenged again.

Even when Judge Souter was placed on the Supreme Court by George Bush in 1990...this Conservative had the compassion to support a Woman's Right To Choose. Judges may be Conservatives but when it comes to this issue they tend to support these Rights as to not support it is considered a STEP BACK in the Social Development of Mankind.

Split Infinity



posted on Nov, 23 2012 @ 05:13 AM
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Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by Quadrivium
 

You are making the statement that a Fertilized Egg is a Human Being. You actually used the word...BABY to describe a Fertilized Egg. It is neither. A Fertilized Egg is just what the words state it is...a Human Egg Cell that has been penetrated by at least one Sperm Cell. This is all it is at this point and cannot even be classified as a Potential Human Life until it has implanted itself in the uterine wall.

It is you who has incorrectly assigned a VALUE as you have stated this Fertilized Egg is a BABY...it is NOT.

A Human Being is not a partial construct of cells nor is it a Fetus that has not gained SENTIENCE. In fact a Human Life encompasses a Body with a Working Mind that is Sentient as well as having a symbiotic relationship with various Non-Human Lifeforms such as various Bacteria and other Single or Multiple Cell Lifeforms that exist in the Digestive Track that without a Human Being could not live.

As an analogy...a Butterfly does not exist as a Caterpillar. It also does not yet exist as the caterpillar morphs into a Pupa. The Pupa is a Potential Butterfly but is NOT A BUTTERFLY.

The same can be stated for a Fetus that is not yet developed or has not yet become SENTIENT.

Logic is not your best attribute. Split Infinity


How sad,
You would rather insult and deflect rather than have an actual discussion. Seems childish to say the least.

You chose not to answer my questions, why? Do the answers, you would have given, scare you?
When does a human begin to develop split?
When a woman has an abortion, is a human life being removed?

The attitude you bring into the discussion is that of someone with little real life experience. Or of one whom feels he/she is entitled to be right and no one else should question them.
Your argument is based on philosophy.
Mine is based in science.
Perhaps you should examine your train of thought before speaking of someone else's attributes.
Quad

edit on 23-11-2012 by Quadrivium because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 23 2012 @ 06:21 PM
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Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by Quadrivium
 

You are making the statement that a Fertilized Egg is a Human Being.


I am making the statement that a fertilized egg is the FIRST cell of a human being. Stop putting words in my mouth and jumping to conclusions.



You actually used the word...BABY to describe a Fertilized Egg.



It is you who has incorrectly assigned a VALUE as you have stated this Fertilized Egg is a BABY...it is NOT.


Baby is a social term that refers to both the fetus and the infant.

ba·by
n. pl. ba·bies
1.
a. A very young child; an infant.
b. An unborn child; a fetus.
c. The youngest member of a family or group.
d. A very young animal.
2. An adult or young person who behaves in an infantile way.
3. Slang A girl or young woman.
4. Informal Sweetheart; dear. Used as a term of endearment.
5. Slang An object of personal concern or interest: Keeping the boat in good repair is your baby.

So I'm pretty sure I haven't referred to a fertilized egg as a baby, but if you say so... quote please.



As an analogy...a Butterfly does not exist as a Caterpillar. It also does not yet exist as the caterpillar morphs into a Pupa. The Pupa is a Potential Butterfly but is NOT A BUTTERFLY.

The same can be stated for a Fetus that is not yet developed or has not yet become SENTIENT.


Your analogy sucks. Caterpillars are sentient.


Logic is not your best attribute. Split Infinity



*EDIT*
I just realized you weren't speaking to me, but oh well my response still stands.
edit on 23-11-2012 by Bone75 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 23 2012 @ 06:36 PM
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Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by Bone75
 

I have told you that I am not in favor of any abortions save Rape, Incest or in the case that it endangers the Woman's Health.


Why not?





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