Abortion - Free Will and Responsibility of Women, NOT Mankind

Originally posted by Quadrivium

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Bone75
reply to post by Quadrivium

 

How many simple questions have you seen them dodge over the last week Quad?
That's why more of us need to start speaking up.

Wrong. You just reject anything that's not specific to your way of thinking.

I have nothing more to say to you or Quad on this specific subject - - because there is no point.

Stop lying, That is like the second or third time you have said you were leaving or had no more to say.

I don't have anymore to say.

You are just wrong in your assumption of dodging questions.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Bone75
reply to post by Quadrivium

 

How many simple questions have you seen them dodge over the last week Quad?
That's why more of us need to start speaking up.

Wrong. You just reject anything that's not specific to your way of thinking.

I have nothing more to say to you or Quad on this specific subject - - because there is no point.

Hey if you have a question that's specific to your way of thinking... then by all means, don't hold back. As a matter of fact, when did you guys stop asking me questions? Oh yeah, right after I answered one with the stone cold truth.

Anyway, see ya in the next abortion thread, and don't forget to bring those new talking points.

Originally posted by Quadrivium


PS-What happened to the skull bro?

Now I am stuck being a bone head all by myself

Oh the skull isn't going anywhere. The dragon is my first attempt at fractal art. I wanted to do more to it, but I forgot to save my layers before saving the image.

Right now I'm working on animating my Bone character and placing him in different scenes. If you think the abortionists dislike me now, just wait until you see these.

Originally posted by Quadrivium

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by Quadrivium

 

I agree that at the point of a Fetus obtaining SENTIENCE that to kill that Fetus would be something to avoid. The debate you have is that you believe POTENTIAL HUMAN LIFE has the same value as AN ACTUAL HUMAN BEING.

I disagree with this. Why is it you are against Morning After or Plan B? And if you are...are you against Fertility Clinics? Split Infinity

It is not about what I believe. You can keep repeating it but that does not make it true.
I will go over it ONE more time and try to add a little detail so that you may better understand.

*When a HUMAN sperm meets a HUMAN egg a NEW HUMAN LIFE is created.

*This new life has it's OWN UNIQUE DNA (not that of the mother or father).

*This new life is unquestionably human and is a member of the species HOMO SAPIENS.

These are FACTS, not BELIEFS.

It is YOUR BELIEF, Split, that it is a POTENTIAL human life not an actual human life.
Your beliefs have NO place in this debate, neither do mine on the morning after pill, Plan B or fertility clinics.
Quad

It is not my BELIEF that a Fertilized Egg is a POTENTIAL HUMAN LIFE because that is EXACTLY WHAT IT IS.

A Fertilized Egg may be a Fertilized Human Egg...BUT IT IS NOT A HUMAN BEING. You cannot say a persons ARM is a HUMAN BEING. You CAN say that the arm is a HUMAN ARM but that is it.

A Fertilized Egg is the same in that it is NOT AN ENTIRE HUMAN BEING. It also does not have 100% PROBABILITY that it will even EXIST. Thus you cannot assign the same VALUE upon a Fertilized Egg as you could upon a Human Being just as you cannot assign a persons ARM the same VALUE as the ENTIRE PERSON.

You did not answer my question. Do you object to a couple going to a FERTILITY CLINIC where THOUSANDS of FERTILIZED EGGS are discarded in an effort to use only a few to Inseminate a Woman?
Split Infinity

Originally posted by SplitInfinity

It is not my BELIEF that a Fertilized Egg is a POTENTIAL HUMAN LIFE because that is EXACTLY WHAT IT IS.

A Fertilized Egg may be a Fertilized Human Egg...BUT IT IS NOT A HUMAN BEING. You cannot say a persons ARM is a HUMAN BEING. You CAN say that the arm is a HUMAN ARM but that is it.

A Fertilized Egg is the same in that it is NOT AN ENTIRE HUMAN BEING. It also does not have 100% PROBABILITY that it will even EXIST. Thus you cannot assign the same VALUE upon a Fertilized Egg as you could upon a Human Being just as you cannot assign a persons ARM the same VALUE as the ENTIRE PERSON.

You did not answer my question. Do you object to a couple going to a FERTILITY CLINIC where THOUSANDS of FERTILIZED EGGS are discarded in an effort to use only a few to Inseminate a Woman?
Split Infinity

I'll answer the question, yes I object. See how easy that was.

A fertilized egg is not a POTENTIAL human life. It IS a human life.

Fertilize
unite female and male reproductive cells: to cause a female gamete to develop a new individual by uniting it with a male gamete.

Did you catch the new individual part?

By the way, how can any physical object have a less than 100% probability of existing?

It also does not have 100% PROBABILITY that it will even EXIST.

reply to post by Bone75

I should have been more specific...100% Probability to EXIST as a Human Being.

I am very well aware what exactly occurs when an Egg is Fertilized as well as how the Genetic Information from both Sperm and Egg are combined. Still this is NOT a Human Being as of yet...it is a POTENTIAL HUMAN BEING.

If this Fertilized Egg does not implant itself in the uterine wall it cannot grow to become a Human Being. Even if it does implant itself it still may not develop into a person. Thus it cannot be assigned the same value as a Living Person.

So you object to Fertility Clinics. It is good to know that your beliefs do not govern the current Rights of Women.

Split Infinity

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by Bone75

 

I should have been more specific...100% Probability to EXIST as a Human Being.

I am very well aware what exactly occurs when an Egg is Fertilized as well as how the Genetic Information from both Sperm and Egg are combined.

Then tell me what's wrong with these questions Split:

Do you agree that upon the moment of conception a NEW human life form, with its own DNA is created?
Yes or No

Do you agree that the DNA contained in my blood today is a carbon-copy of the DNA created at the moment of my conception?
Yes or No

So you object to Fertility Clinics. It is good to know that your beliefs do not govern the current Rights of Women.

Come up with a method that doesn't involve the killing of fertilized human eggs and I'll be all for it.

reply to post by Bone75

No and No.

Split Infinity

reply to post by SaturnFX


I think you should take some time and watch the documented videos of babies (fetuses) who are being killed via various methods of abortion. You will see that there is a consience and a complete and total fear that they try to escape from when they are faced with the threat of destruction.

At 5-8 weeks their hearts start beating.............and they are alive. ALIVE.

Take some time to actually research and watch what happens in the womb of women who are killing their living beings. The little being wouldn't be alive and evolving if it was simply just a mass of tissue. How do you think you were formed and came into existence?

I find your statement grossly ignorant and unresearched. If you had taken the time to research this you would never in a million years believe what you are saying. It is not about pro-choice or hard circumstances.......simply put it is about killing a LIVING BEING. There is no more right in performing an abortion than there is in someone finding a reason to kill and find a reason to exterminate you. It is the same thing............murder of LIFE.

None of us have the right to choose death over life for anyone. Pregnant or not.

www.youtube.com...

Scientist, doctors, biologists, molecular geneticists, none have an agreed upon opinion or stated fact as to "When life begins."

Although the opinion that life begins at fertilization is the most popular
view among the public, many scientists no longer support this position, as
an increasing number of scientific discoveries seem to contradict it. One
such discovery in the last twenty years is that research has shown that
there is no "moment of fertilization" at all. Scientists now choose to
view fertilization as a process that occurs over a period of 12-24 hours.
After sperm are released they must remain in the female reproductive tract
for seven hours before they are capable of fertilizing the egg.
[snip]
The most popular argument against the idea that life begins at the moment
of fertilization has been dubbed the "twinning argument." The main point
of this argument is that although a zygote is genetically unique from its
parents from the moment a diploid organism is formed; it is possible for
that zygote to split into two or more zygotes up until 14 or 15 days after
fertilization. Even though the chances of twinning are not very great, as
long as there is the potential for it to occur

the zygote has not completed the process of individuation and is not an ontological
individual. !!!!!

biology.franklincollege.edu...

Free will. Responsibility. What is the difference? That is the answer.

reply to post by Egyptia

I think you should take some time and watch the documented videos of babies (fetuses) who are being killed via various methods of abortion. You will see that there is a consience and a complete and total fear that they try to escape from when they are faced with the threat of destruction.

Not true.

You video is disingenuous and contains many untruths. For example, it claims that the sex of the child is determined at fertilization when it isn't decided until the 6th week. It also stated that at at 11 weeks "she can smile and frown" as if she has a working brain and intellect to reflect happiness or anger. I couldn't watch any more after that.

Champions for a fetus's right to life often claim that the brain of a
human fetus begins to show electrical activity at a remarkably early age.
A key moment in the history of the abortion debate is the production and
release of "The Silent Scream," an influential abortion film that
graphically depicts the fetal response to its termination. The video
accompanies the abortion of a 12-week-old fetus with the words "Now this
little person at twelve weeks is a fully formed absolutely identifiable
human being. He has had brain waves for at least six weeks..." (Morowitz
and Trefil 1992).

Although such arguments appeal to both the emotion by
depicting an infant, though still developing, in a moment of pain and
crisis and the intellect by presenting a scientific line of reasoning, the
position presented by the film conflicts widely accepted developmental
theory. For instance, the film contends that a fetus has brain waves after
12 weeks and suggest, even in the title "The Silent Scream," that it
reacts to its termination with fear and pain. These contentions contradict
scientific evidence that indicates neural connections in the cerebral
cortex have yet to develop in a 12-week-old fetus. Lacking these basic
neural networks, the developing fetus is incapable of feeling the emotions
recognized as fear or pain (Morowitz and Trefil 1992).

The film's position is further contrasted by evidence that suggests a 12-week-old fetus is not
yet capable to take direct actions in response to a thought. The
developing fetus is therefore incapable of recognizing potential danger
and unable to either be fearful of it or actively evade it through
movement or any other willful activity (Morowitz and Trefil 1992).
(For information concerning how photographs of the embryo are often
misrepresented on anti-abortion literature and websites, see Images of
Embryos Used by Anti-Abortion Activists.)
biology.franklincollege.edu...

Law should be simple. A human has a right over their own body. The man over his, the woman over his and the baby over theirs.

Its not that hard

reply to post by windword


I see life............I care very little over the symantics of humans in their arguments and rhetoric for the pursuit of intellect and justifications when the truth screams right before my eyes. I see life being killed. Simple.

reply to post by SplitInfinity

It is not my BELIEF that a Fertilized Egg is a POTENTIAL HUMAN LIFE because that is EXACTLY WHAT IT IS.

A Fertilized Egg may be a Fertilized Human Egg...BUT IT IS NOT A HUMAN BEING. You cannot say a persons ARM is a HUMAN BEING. You CAN say that the arm is a HUMAN ARM but that is it.

A Fertilized Egg is the same in that it is NOT AN ENTIRE HUMAN BEING. It also does not have 100% PROBABILITY that it will even EXIST. Thus you cannot assign the same VALUE upon a Fertilized Egg as you could upon a Human Being just as you cannot assign a persons ARM the same VALUE as the ENTIRE PERSON.

You did not answer my question. Do you object to a couple going to a FERTILITY CLINIC where THOUSANDS of FERTILIZED EGGS are discarded in an effort to use only a few to Inseminate a Woman?
Split Infinity

Split,
It is a human life, there is no way around this. We ALL, EVERYONE OF US!!!, start out this way.
Your arguments make no sense. Is an arm a human being??? What kind of question is that?? That is an absurd argument to say the least.
The difference here is that you keep saying Human Being, where Bone and I are saying Human life.
It makes you feel better to think that early human life growing in a woman's womb is not a Human Being.
Sorry but it is a Human Life, it is how each of us start out, we as humans start growing at this point and we do not stop until adulthood.
This is legalized murder, IF A WOMAN HAS AN ABORTION SHE IS REMOVING A HUMAN LIFE.
As far as the rest of your argument about ...

. It also does not have 100% PROBABILITY that it will even EXIST.

It already exists!!!!!!!
Is there a 100% PROBABILITY that you will EXIST tomorrow? How about the next 10 min?
From the time of conception NONE OF US have a 100% probability of existing another moment.
Quad

Originally posted by winterkill
Law should be simple. A human has a right over their own body. The man over his, the woman over his and the baby over theirs.

Its not that hard

What right does an aborted baby have? The right to being executed without just cause?

reply to post by Egyptia


Nobody's arguing the question of "if" there is life. We're questioning it's value. Is all life sacred? Is all human life sacred? Is a fertilized egg sacred?

We are trying to discuss the measurement of the value of the woman's free will over the value of the unborn's right to life.

It's a very, very, very old debate, that goes all the way back to ancient times. And we are still debating it today, and will debate it again tomorrow.

Originally posted by Egyptia
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

I think you should take some time and watch the documented videos of babies (fetuses) who are being killed via various methods of abortion. You will see that there is a consience and a complete and total fear that they try to escape from when they are faced with the threat of destruction.

thats what you see based on what you want to see. there is equal/opposite pressure at work of course..same will happen with a spot of oil in water..that doesn't mean oil is fearful of something pressing towards it.

At 5-8 weeks their hearts start beating.............and they are alive. ALIVE.

ok frankenstein.
Sure, its alive in the same way a braindead vegetable on life support is alive.
pull the plug and its not..and remove the mothers influence on the fetus..same thing.
alive is not living, and certainly not a person at 5 weeks.
heart does not determine consciousness...a active brain does.

Take some time to actually research and watch what happens in the womb of women who are killing their living beings. The little being wouldn't be alive and evolving if it was simply just a mass of tissue. How do you think you were formed and came into existence?

I did, hense why I came to my conclusions.
gotta ask those deep questions, such as, what is life.
a sperm is arguably alive if you consider reactionary genetic memory and such. I tend to think life is a bit more complex than just wiggley bits. a 5 week old fetus is a advanced sperm/egg growth..until there is brain function, there is no person.

I find your statement grossly ignorant and unresearched.

I find your statements full of religion and personal perspective without a shread of scientific understanding.

If you had taken the time to research this you would never in a million years believe what you are saying. It is not about pro-choice or hard circumstances.......simply put it is about killing a LIVING BEING.

Its removing a growth...I also believe that once a person is brain dead, they should be unplugged..a heartbeat is not a living person..it is a mechanical response.

There is no more right in performing an abortion than there is in someone finding a reason to kill and find a reason to exterminate you. It is the same thing............murder of LIFE.

If life is precious to you, why do you continue to eat?
Frankly, a chicken or even a plant is more alive than a 5 week old fetus.
Granted, the potential isn't the same (some may argue a cow is a far better tradeoff than some people however)

You should gain some principles...your morals are blinding your logic.

reply to post by Egyptia


We pronounce death when there is no longer brain activity. Should we not pronounce life at the start of brain activity?

reply to post by aero56


That is just called brain dead, or vegitative state. I thought death was pronounced when the heart stops and can't be restarted. So heartbeat should be the starting point too, no?