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Abortion - Free Will and Responsibility of Women, NOT Mankind

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posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 02:22 AM
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reply to post by Bone75
 

To directly answer you two questions...at the moment of conception or the Implantation of the Sperm into the Egg Cell...these specialized cells begin the process of transfer of Genetic Material and Genetic Biological Directives occur. Still...this Fertilized Egg is not even close to being a CHILD or is it SENTIENT. Nor does it at this point have 100% Probability of BECOMING A HUMAN BEING as it must first Implant itself into the Uterine Wall.

Prior to implantation it cannot even be called a New Human Being as it is not. Once it has implanted itself then it's POTENTIAL and VALUE increase equally. Still we still do not have 100% Probability that it will be a CHILD. As it develops it may detatch itself from the wall or the Woman's Body may secrete a Hormone that removes it.

As it develops it is still just a clump of cells and it takes many Months before this Developing Fetus will even have a BRAIN in which it will have the Mechanism to become SENTIENT. Prior to obtaining Sentience...IT IS NOT A HUMAN LIFE...IT IS A POTENTIAL HUMAN LIFE but cannot be called a HUMAN YET.

Split Infinity




posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 06:24 AM
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Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by Quadrivium
 

It is a Mathematical Representation that determines VALUE. This is what is at debate here that being what is the exact VALUE that can be assigned to a Fertilized Egg. If a Fertilized Egg is represented as 1E and the Living Food which Humans Eat is represented as 1F...and we all can agree that a CHILD cannot exist without either the existence of a Fertilized Egg which we assign a Value of 1....and neither can a Child exist without the Food needed to be ingested and used as raw material in an Adult Human Body in order for the body to create either a Sperm Cell or an Egg Cell so we assign Food also with a Value of 1. Then this is how the Math Dictates Value and Potential.
I
1F with F=1 is 1XF or 1X1=1
1E with E=1 is 1XE or 1X1=1

Since this shows both the the Fertilized Egg as having a VALUE of 1 as well as the FOOD having a VALUE of 1 it means the two are of EQUAL VALUE for a CHILD to EXIST.
Logic Dictates Equal Value has EQUAL POTENTIAL. THUS Value is 1 or V=1 and Potential=Value thus Potential=1 or P=1 thus VALUE X POTENTIAL OR 1X1=1 We Multiply because Value and Potential are exponentially increasing per DEVELOPMENT.
Thus V X P X D = 1D When Sentience occurs we ADD THUS 1D + S = 1D+S THUS 1D+S>1D

1D = A POTENTIAL CHILD DEVELOPING 1D+S = A CHILD. 1D = A DEVELOPING POTENTIAL CHILD.
Split Infinity


So you are saying that 1F is equal to 1E.
In other words, carrots and cabbages are equal to a Human fertilized egg.
Seriously?
Your logic is flawed.
Would you eat another human? For that is exactly what the fertilized egg is. It is the earliest stage of human development, which will continue until adulthood.
This pre born human has it's own unique DNA which makes it part of the species homo sapiens.
It is not akin to carrots or cabbages nor is it like any food that I would eat because that would be cannibalism.
Quad



posted on Nov, 17 2012 @ 09:01 AM
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Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by Bone75
 

To directly answer you two questions...at the moment of conception or the Implantation of the Sperm into the Egg Cell...these specialized cells begin the process of transfer of Genetic Material and Genetic Biological Directives occur. Still...this Fertilized Egg is not even close to being a CHILD or is it SENTIENT. Nor does it at this point have 100% Probability of BECOMING A HUMAN BEING as it must first Implant itself into the Uterine Wall.

Prior to implantation it cannot even be called a New Human Being as it is not. Once it has implanted itself then it's POTENTIAL and VALUE increase equally. Still we still do not have 100% Probability that it will be a CHILD. As it develops it may detatch itself from the wall or the Woman's Body may secrete a Hormone that removes it.

As it develops it is still just a clump of cells and it takes many Months before this Developing Fetus will even have a BRAIN in which it will have the Mechanism to become SENTIENT. Prior to obtaining Sentience...IT IS NOT A HUMAN LIFE...IT IS A POTENTIAL HUMAN LIFE but cannot be called a HUMAN YET.

Split Infinity


How am I supposed to talk to you when you can't even answer a yes or no question? I even custom tailored the first question to suit your needs by calling it a "human life form" rather than a "human being."


Posted by SPLIT INFINITY
Whether you talk about Living Sperm and Egg Cells or a Living Fertilized Egg Cell...even all three Life Forms are Alive and Self Determinant...
edit on 17-11-2012 by Bone75 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 18 2012 @ 02:16 PM
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reply to post by Quadrivium
 

Our bodies are made up of the Animal and Plant life that we eat and so is made the Egg and Sperm. These animals and plants use the soil that Man has been buried and decayed in for Millions of Years and in turn we eat them in a never ending cycle of Birth, Death, Growth and Death again.
Don't be so squeamish. Split Infinity



posted on Nov, 18 2012 @ 07:37 PM
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Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by Quadrivium
 

Our bodies are made up of the Animal and Plant life that we eat and so is made the Egg and Sperm. These animals and plants use the soil that Man has been buried and decayed in for Millions of Years and in turn we eat them in a never ending cycle of Birth, Death, Growth and Death again.
Don't be so squeamish. Split Infinity


You can not make your point so you call me squeamish? Perhaps you should change your screen name to split- ing hairs.
I take it you understood the meaning of my last post? If you would care to comment on it and stop with the personal attacks it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Quad



posted on Nov, 18 2012 @ 07:51 PM
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reply to post by Quadrivium
 

YOU were the one that spoke about CANNIBALISM. I believe I have made my point very clear. You seem to desire that all questions and answers that pertain to this topics issue must be constrained to you thoughts of what is or is not the way you desire them asked or answered.

You believe in this a certain way as is your right. You do NOT have a right to dictate how other believe nor can you FORCE a woman in the country to carry a child to birth. As I have said...I find abortion distasteful but I would NEVER either dictate or FORCE a Woman to to what I think is right as what I or YOU believe has NO BUSINESS in the decision making of any Pregnant Woman.

The Supreme Court of the United States agrees with ME on this point and it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that this will change. I have been trying to tell you that it is possible to DRASTICALLY REDUCE ABORTIONS by simply making the Morning After Pill as well as Plan B widely and easily available to all women. It is far better for a Fertilized Egg to be lost than having to ABORT A FETUS. These are the REALITIES that must be considered. To act and believe as you do is SELF DEFEATING in that you will not achieve to ANY EXTENT the protection of what you hold so dear.

Basically you are shooting yourself in the foot. Split Infinity



posted on Nov, 18 2012 @ 08:46 PM
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Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by Quadrivium
 

YOU were the one that spoke about CANNIBALISM. I believe I have made my point very clear. You seem to desire that all questions and answers that pertain to this topics issue must be constrained to you thoughts of what is or is not the way you desire them asked or answered.

You believe in this a certain way as is your right. You do NOT have a right to dictate how other believe nor can you FORCE a woman in the country to carry a child to birth. As I have said...I find abortion distasteful but I would NEVER either dictate or FORCE a Woman to to what I think is right as what I or YOU believe has NO BUSINESS in the decision making of any Pregnant Woman.

The Supreme Court of the United States agrees with ME on this point and it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that this will change. I have been trying to tell you that it is possible to DRASTICALLY REDUCE ABORTIONS by simply making the Morning After Pill as well as Plan B widely and easily available to all women. It is far better for a Fertilized Egg to be lost than having to ABORT A FETUS. These are the REALITIES that must be considered. To act and believe as you do is SELF DEFEATING in that you will not achieve to ANY EXTENT the protection of what you hold so dear.

Basically you are shooting yourself in the foot. Split Infinity


Once again split you are wrong.
Education is the key here.
What I have stated is TRUTH and can be backed up with SCIENCE.
What you keep stating is BELIEF.
This is why I came into this thread stating that being sentiet, having a soul and religion have no place in this debate.
No one has the right to deprive another human of their rights or to take anothers life.
Do I look to change the laws in a short time? No.
But me and others like me can educate people. Slowly but surly things will change.
Don't believe me? Watch.
edit on 18-11-2012 by Quadrivium because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 18 2012 @ 09:08 PM
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reply to post by Quadrivium
 

I agree that at the point of a Fetus obtaining SENTIENCE that to kill that Fetus would be something to avoid. The debate you have is that you believe POTENTIAL HUMAN LIFE has the same value as AN ACTUAL HUMAN BEING.

I disagree with this. Why is it you are against Morning After or Plan B? And if you are...are you against Fertility Clinics? Split Infinity



posted on Nov, 19 2012 @ 09:34 AM
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Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by Quadrivium
 

I agree that at the point of a Fetus obtaining SENTIENCE that to kill that Fetus would be something to avoid. The debate you have is that you believe POTENTIAL HUMAN LIFE has the same value as AN ACTUAL HUMAN BEING.

I disagree with this. Why is it you are against Morning After or Plan B? And if you are...are you against Fertility Clinics? Split Infinity


It is not about what I believe. You can keep repeating it but that does not make it true.
I will go over it ONE more time and try to add a little detail so that you may better understand.

*When a HUMAN sperm meets a HUMAN egg a NEW HUMAN LIFE is created.

*This new life has it's OWN UNIQUE DNA (not that of the mother or father).

*This new life is unquestionably human and is a member of the species HOMO SAPIENS.

These are FACTS, not BELIEFS.

It is YOUR BELIEF, Split, that it is a POTENTIAL human life not an actual human life.
Your beliefs have NO place in this debate, neither do mine on the morning after pill, Plan B or fertility clinics.
Quad



posted on Nov, 19 2012 @ 10:53 AM
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reply to post by Quadrivium
 




*When a HUMAN sperm meets a HUMAN egg a NEW HUMAN LIFE is created.


False!

Life isn't created. It cycles.

The egg was always alive. When it met the living sperm, the sperm shared genetic information and a chemical reaction occurred. The egg is transformed by the mechanisms of chemical reactions, not some mystical angel of life.

Your logic suggests that life just appears like magic. If that were true then I'd agree that all life is sacred, but it's not and it isn't.
edit on 19-11-2012 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 19 2012 @ 11:52 AM
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Originally posted by windword
reply to post by Quadrivium
 




*When a HUMAN sperm meets a HUMAN egg a NEW HUMAN LIFE is created.



False!

Life isn't created. It cycles.

The egg was always alive. When it met the living sperm, the sperm shared genetic information and a chemical reaction occurred. The egg is transformed by the mechanisms of chemical reactions, not some mystical angel of life.
Your logic suggests that life just appears like magic. If that were true then I'd agree that all life is sacred, but it's not and it isn't.
edit on 19-11-2012 by windword because: (no reason given)

Windword,
"Created" ......In case you are unaware:

cre·ate (kr-t)
tr.v. cre·at·ed, cre·at·ing, cre·ates
1. To cause to exist; bring into being. See Synonyms at found1.
2. To give rise to; produce: That remark created a stir.
3. To invest with an office or title; appoint.
4. To produce through artistic or imaginative effort: create a poem; create a role.
adj. Archaic
Created.

www.thefreedictionary.com...
I see nothing in the definition about a mystical angel of life or magic.
Would it make you happier if I said...............................
*When a HUMAN sperm meets a HUMAN egg a NEW HUMAN LIFE is FORMED.
As for the rest of your post, IT IS YOUR BELIEF not FACT.



posted on Nov, 19 2012 @ 12:10 PM
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reply to post by Quadrivium
 





The egg was always alive. When it met the living sperm, the sperm shared genetic information and a chemical reaction occurred. The egg is transformed by the mechanisms of chemical reactions, not some mystical angel of life.


^ FACT!


cre·ate (kr-t)
tr.v. cre·at·ed, cre·at·ing, cre·ates
1. To cause to exist; bring into being. See Synonyms at found1.

The egg and sperm meeting did not cause a new existence. It caused a chemical reaction transforming the egg's being.

2. To give rise to; produce: That remark created a stir.

It did give rise to a chemical reaction.

3. To invest with an office or title; appoint.

It's your opinion that supports the title of a fertilized egg's "new life." The egg was already alive.

4. To produce through artistic or imaginative effort: create a poem; create a role.
adj. Archaic

And that's where the magic begins. It's only your imagination that suggests that fertilization creates "new life."

Thanks for proving my point!
We don't create life.



posted on Nov, 19 2012 @ 12:34 PM
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reply to post by windword
 

I am not sure what "point" of yours you think I proved?................

Anyway, don't take my word for it. It actually sounds better coming from some of the world’s most prominent scientists and physicians.


A United States Senate Judiciary Subcommittee invited experts to testify on the question of when life begins. All of the quotes from the following experts come directly from the official government record of their testimony.1

Dr. Alfred M. Bongiovanni, professor of pediatrics and obstetrics at the University of Pennsylvania, stated:

“I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at the time of conception.... I submit that human life is present throughout this entire sequence from conception to adulthood and that any interruption at any point throughout this time constitutes a termination of human life....

I am no more prepared to say that these early stages [of development in the womb] represent an incomplete human being than I would be to say that the child prior to the dramatic effects of puberty...is not a human being. This is human life at every stage.”

Dr. Jerome LeJeune, professor of genetics at the University of Descartes in Paris, was the discoverer of the chromosome pattern of Down syndrome. Dr. LeJeune testified to the Judiciary Subcommittee, “after fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being.” He stated that this “is no longer a matter of taste or opinion,” and “not a metaphysical contention, it is plain experimental evidence.” He added, “Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception.”

Professor Hymie Gordon, Mayo Clinic: “By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception.”

Professor Micheline Matthews-Roth, Harvard University Medical School: “It is incorrect to say that biological data cannot be decisive.... It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception.... Our laws, one function of which is to help preserve the lives of our people, should be based on accurate scientific data.”

Dr. Watson A. Bowes, University of Colorado Medical School: “The beginning of a single human life is from a biological point of view a simple and straightforward matter—the beginning is conception. This straightforward biological fact should not be distorted to serve sociological, political, or economic goals.”

A prominent physician points out that at these Senate hearings, “Pro-abortionists, though invited to do so, failed to produce even a single expert witness who would specifically testify that life begins at any point other than conception or implantation. Only one witness said no one can tell when life begins.”2
www.epm.org...
This was from a congressional hearing in 2010. The article has much more in it if you would care to read it.

So as you can see, when the sperm meets the egg, it does in fact cause a new life to exist or brings a new life into being.

cre·ate (kr-t)
tr.v. cre·at·ed, cre·at·ing, cre·ates
1. To cause to exist; bring into being. See Synonyms at found1.
www.thefreedictionary.com...



posted on Nov, 19 2012 @ 01:11 PM
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reply to post by Quadrivium
 


All those quotes are just people's opinions. I can do the same:

Inconsistancy in the “life begins at conception” argument


The fact of the matter is that conception is no less of an arbitrary ‘line in the sand’ than any other point that one picks, such as the development of the brain, birth or development of self-awareness. But there is nothing wrong per se with something being arbitrary (after all, the time when people are old enough to vote is arbitrary), so we should now look at whether there is a good reason for not using conception as the start of a human being’s life.
............
So somewhere along that set of chemical reactions, which finally result in two cells with a unique human genetic combination (the zygote immediately after the fusion of sperm has two pronuclei – one from the sperm and one from the ovum), are we to say that a single human life has started? If so, at what point does that happen?


Life does not begin at conception - former AG


Mr Rogers said that a pregnancy with a capacity to be born exists at a different time to fertilisation.


Life doesn't start at conception, but after says Cardinal Martini in dialogue with bio-ethicist



And the answer is: “not immediatly with conception, but after” said Cardinal Martini, about when life starts, “with the consequences that derive from it,”


When does life begin?



When discussing the philosophical and/or ethical issues, surrounding the start of life the desire for science to provide a clear cut human/non human boundary is very understandable. We need to be able to define this because it is important in our laws and our understandings. However, even from the brief descriptions given above, it is clear that there is no simple answer that science can give. It may well be that reality doesn't have an answer for us, and that "when does life begin?" is, in fact, a meaningless question.



posted on Nov, 19 2012 @ 02:10 PM
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reply to post by windword
 

Windword,
Your "proof" does not have a scientist or physician in the lot. I read each one.

I am sure that you can find some though.

Abortion, after all, is a very lucrative business.
Quad



posted on Nov, 19 2012 @ 02:45 PM
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reply to post by Quadrivium
 


The question is answered, that life is a cycle, within the first 5 minutes, but you may benefit from watching the whole video.



When Does Life Begin? Medical Experts Debate Abortion Issue


In 2006, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists Committee on Ethics published their opinion on “Using Preimplantation Embryos for Research.” In it, they say, “If the preimplantation embryo is left or maintained outside the uterus, it cannot develop into a human being.” Did you catch that: “… into a human being”?

edit on 19-11-2012 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 19 2012 @ 07:16 PM
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reply to post by Quadrivium
 


How many simple questions have you seen them dodge over the last week Quad?
That's why more of us need to start speaking up.

Our truth slaughters their truth.

We just spent the last 3-1/2 pages arguing over whether or not a new life form is created upon conception. No matter how I pose the question, they absolutely refuse to acknowledge this one simple proven fact.

Its frustrating, but insightful as well. It shows me that they're scared of the truth. They run from it and put it off until they're stuttering so bad that they have no choice but to change the subject.
edit on 19-11-2012 by Bone75 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 07:00 AM
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Bone,
All they have showed me so far is that they are willfully ignorant.
I think it drives them crazy, they can not figure out that it has nothing to do with religion, being sentient, when the soul enters the body or belief in general.
I am a Christian and I have not used a faith based argument, I do not need to.
The only evidence they put forward are from those that have something to gain from humans being slaughtered.
Do they see that? Take the video windword posted for example. How much money can be made by doing research on humans during the early stages of development? How many investors do they have?
It is frustrating but all we have to do is keep stating the truth. There is no way around it.
peace,
Quad

PS-What happened to the skull bro?
Now I am stuck being a bone head all by myself



posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 12:05 PM
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Originally posted by Bone75
reply to post by Quadrivium
 


How many simple questions have you seen them dodge over the last week Quad?
That's why more of us need to start speaking up.


Wrong. You just reject anything that's not specific to your way of thinking.

I have nothing more to say to you or Quad on this specific subject - - because there is no point.



edit on 20-11-2012 by Annee because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 12:48 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Bone75
reply to post by Quadrivium
 


How many simple questions have you seen them dodge over the last week Quad?
That's why more of us need to start speaking up.


Wrong. You just reject anything that's not specific to your way of thinking.

I have nothing more to say to you or Quad on this specific subject - - because there is no point.


edit on 20-11-2012 by Annee because: (no reason given)

Stop lying, That is like the second or third time you have said you were leaving or had no more to say.
The only evidence y'all can pull up is from those who are making money off of abortions, as I said it is a very lucrative business. That does not make it right though.
Annee, if you want children to die for your own selfish reasons, you have that right.
However, do not expect everyone who sees it for what it is (MURDER) not to speak up about it.
Quad





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