Enoch, Elijah, Jesus and Psalm 91

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Yeah but, Jesus doesn't teach any of
that. According to the Torah and the
10 commandments, oppression
doesn't even make the list, but "you
shall not murder" is #6 so this is
another lie from Muhammad. Slavery is oppression, and God did allow slavery
and nothing is more oppressive than
someone that owns you like a piece of
property and you are not free. Jesus
teaches us that we may be killed for
his namesake (persecution), but we are not to resist if they do persecute us
for his namesake, and we are his
temples and those who destroy us, he
will destroy them.

Jesus pbuh said to buy a sword even by selling one's cloak. If that wasnt for self defense then what else it was for?
And as far as i know, he dint say that about slavery, it was paul. Maybe you could show me where he said it.
Ya he said love your enemies but does that mean i stand and let someone stick a sword through me?? Doesnt that just means that i shouldnt hate them or have malice towards them? Rather be good no matter how they treat me back.
Oppression is injustice and wrong, dint he threw out the money changers, wasnt that an act of violence.
And lastly, ya message of Jesus pbuh was mostly of peace and love pre ascension. but his work is not over and when he returns, he wouldnt be that peaceful, that doesnt means he wouldnt follow his own teaching, it just means circumstances define behaviour and he never taught to behave blindly. And when he returns who would be ready to join him? peace loving, other cheek giving christians, or ready to die for God, sword ready even by selling cloaks muslims as instructed by him?

reply to post by logical7

Jesus pbuh said to buy a sword even by selling one's cloak. If that wasn't for self defense then what else it was for?

It was to fulfill prophecy concerning Christ's end when he was going to be condemned as a criminal, if you read later on in the passage.

Luke 22:35-38


35 And He said to them, “When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?”

So they said, “Nothing.”

36 Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For the things concerning Me have an end.”

38 So they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.”

And He said to them, “It is enough.”

He had to be seen as a criminal, and he was accused by the jews of sedition which was the only way they could get Rome to crucify him because their trial by the Sanhedrin was held in the middle of the night and therefore illegal. He was not advocating anyone perpetrate violence even for his own sake.

Matthew 26:50-55

50 But Jesus said to him, “Friend, why have you come?”

Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and took Him. 51 And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.

52 But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. 53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels? 54 How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?”

55 In that hour Jesus said to the multitudes, “Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs to take Me? I sat daily with you, teaching in the temple, and you did not seize Me. 56 But all this was done that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.”

Ya he said love your enemies but does that mean i stand and let someone stick a sword through me?? Doesnt that just means that i shouldnt hate them or have malice towards them? Rather be good no matter how they treat me back.

Matthew 5:38-42

38

“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.

Apostle Steven didn't resist when the pharisees had him stoned to death, Paul was there watching it the day Steven died. Apostle Barnabas was taken and skinned alive and he didn't resist. Being a follower of Christ is about going above and beyond the call of duty, even loving not your own life even to the death. Violence is not our right to take upon another, that is for God to avenge (Deut.:32-35)

Oppression is injustice and wrong, dint he threw out the money changers, wasnt that an act of violence.

He kicked over their tables and whipped them, but he was performing the function of the High Priest, he was cleaning out the temple and getting rid of the iniquity being done in the temple before Passover sacrifice (his crucifiction). That last week when the people were making ready for Passover, he began to fulfill all the duties of the High Priest even though he was not a Levite, he is Melchizidek which is the Highest Order and highest priest of Heaven.

And lastly, ya message of Jesus pbuh was mostly of peace and love pre ascension. but his work is not over and when he returns, he wouldnt be that peaceful, that doesnt means he wouldnt follow his own teaching, it just means circumstances define behaviour and he never taught to behave blindly. And when he returns who would be ready to join him? peace loving, other cheek giving christians, or ready to die for God, sword ready even by selling cloaks muslims as instructed by him?

When he returns he comes back as Yahveh, and probation for salvation is over because he has left the Mercy Seat. First coming as Savior, and Second coming as Conqueror. He will exact judgement at Armageddon just as he did at Sodom and Gomorrah, none of us are going to lift a finger. There won't be very many christians here by that time, those who miss the Rapture will die at the hands of the Son of Perdition or be imprisoned.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

He will exact judgement at Armageddon just as he did at Sodom and Gomorrah, none of us are going to lift a finger. There won't be very many christians here by that time, those who miss the Rapture will die at the hands of the Son of Perdition or be imprisoned.

14 They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
-Revelations 17:14


This indicates that Jesus will have his "called, faithful and chosen" followers with him when he fights the beast and his army. Christians do not have the concept of taking up arms to fight back those who oppress them. However, the Muslims who also believe in Jesus' 2nd coming have such a concept..... and it will be the muslims who will be fighting alongside Jesus.

If Jesus returns, who would he be more pleased with?
A society where people utter "peace be upon him" after every mention of Jesus' name? Or a society where people mock God and His prophets and Jesus, in the name of "free speech"?

The sad truth is that Christianity was steamrolled by secular ideas a long time ago. Christianity allowed these secular forces to take over its societies. Which is why in North America and Europe, Christians have to live in a society that sees as "normal" what the bible calls sin. Who do you blame for this mess?

While Christianity failed to uphold the bible, Islam remains a cultural / religious force that stands as a counter weight to secular values that are taking over the world.... and it will remain so until Jesus returns to win the final battle.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

This indicates that Jesus will have his "called, faithful and chosen" followers with him when he fights the beast and his army. Christians do not have the concept of taking up arms to fight back those who oppress them. However, the Muslims who also believe in Jesus' 2nd coming have such a concept..... and it will be the muslims who will be fighting alongside Jesus.

The Bride lift a finger. It's not our place to punish the wicked, that's his (the King) job and it's a function he has performed on several occasions, and when he casts the wicked into Gehenna it'll be the angels doing that for him.

Muslim won't be fighting alongside Jesus, because you will be destroyed. Islam denies the Son of God and if you do not have the Son, you do not have the Father either.

1 John 2:22-23

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

No one from the nations is with Jesus when he returns to do battle with the forces of the A/C, the Bride has been removed from harms way, and those who come to Christ during the great tribulation will be martyred or held captive, and so he fights them on his own with no help. No one is there to lift a finger to help him but he destrys his enemies alone.

Isaiah 63:1-6

[Isaiah speaking]
1 Who is this who comes from Edom,
With dyed garments from Bozrah,
This One who is glorious in His apparel,
Traveling in the greatness of His strength?—

[Christ speaking]
“I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save.”

[Isaiah speaking]
2 Why is Your apparel red,
And Your garments like one who treads in the winepress?

[Christ speaking]
3 “I have trodden the winepress alone,
And from the peoples no one was with Me.
For I have trodden them in My anger,
And trampled them in My fury;
Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments,
And I have stained all My robes.
4 For the day of vengeance is in My heart,
And the year of My redeemed has come.
5 I looked, but there was no one to help,
And I wondered
That there was no one to uphold;
Therefore My own arm brought salvation for Me;
And My own fury, it sustained Me.
6 I have trodden down the peoples in My anger,
Made them drunk in My fury,
And brought down their strength to the earth.”

7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the Lord
And the praises of the Lord,
According to all that the Lord has bestowed on us,
And the great goodness toward the house of Israel,
Which He has bestowed on them according to His mercies,
According to the multitude of His lovingkindnesses.
8 For He said, “Surely they are My people,
Children who will not lie.”
So He became their Savior.
9 In all their affliction He was afflicted,
And the Angel of His Presence saved them;
In His love and in His pity He redeemed them;
And He bore them and carried them
All the days of old.
10 But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit;
So He turned Himself against them as an enemy,
And He fought against them.

11 Then he remembered the days of old,
Moses and his people, saying:
“Where is He who brought them up out of the sea
With the shepherd of His flock?
Where is He who put His Holy Spirit within them,
12 Who led them by the right hand of Moses,
With His glorious arm,
Dividing the water before them
To make for Himself an everlasting name,
13 Who led them through the deep,
As a horse in the wilderness,
That they might not stumble?”

14 As a beast goes down into the valley,
And the Spirit of the Lord causes him to rest,
So You lead Your people,
To make Yourself a glorious name.

A Prayer of Penitence
15 Look down from heaven,
And see from Your habitation, holy and glorious.
Where are Your zeal and Your strength,
The yearning of Your heart and Your mercies toward me?
Are they restrained?
16 Doubtless You are our Father,
Though Abraham was ignorant of us,
And Israel does not acknowledge us.
You, O Lord, are our Father;
Our Redeemer from Everlasting is Your name.
17 O Lord, why have You made us stray from Your ways,
And hardened our heart from Your fear?
Return for Your servants’ sake,
The tribes of Your inheritance.
18 Your holy people have possessed it but a little while;
Our adversaries have trodden down Your sanctuary.
19 We have become like those of old, over whom You never ruled,
Those who were never called by Your name.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

1 John 2:22-23

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

"Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ?"0

Well, then the muslims are covered, since they don't deny Jesus is the Messiah.

Muslim won't be fighting alongside Jesus, because you will be destroyed. Islam denies the Son of God and if you do not have the Son, you do not have the Father either.

As for the "son" bit.... muslims don't see Jesus as a "son" of God, maybe as a title but not as a literal "begotten" son of God.

Either way, David and Adam were also called "sons of God" in the bible. So the same applies to Jesus as well.

No one from the nations is with Jesus when he returns to do battle with the forces of the A/C,

14 They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
-Revelations 17:14

Revelations 17:14 shows us that the "called and chosen" are with Jesus when he fights the forces of the anti-christ.

Also, the beast "was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them."

Where do you suppose these saints located? In secular North America / Europe / Australia? Do you think the AC is going to fan his armies out to these regions to find out who the real christians are before conquering them?

Christianity has already been conquered by the secular forces of the world.
Today, only Islam stands opposed as a cultural entity to the godless secularism and it will be Islam that will be targeted by the forces of beast... because Islamic societies resists the invisible forces that corrupted Christianity in the western world.

Understand that revelations is set mostly in and around the middle east... which mostly has a muslim population. It is they who will be attacked by the beasts armies. It would be from among these muslims who the "called and chosen of Jesus" would be comprised.

God knows best.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

With Enoch and Elijah, the bible establishes the concept of a man being lifted up to heaven.
However, the Koran states that a third man, Jesus was also lifted up to heaven.

The Bible also says that Jesus was lifted up to heaven.

So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”
(Acts 1:6-11 ESV)

If you read the context of this statement you will find it took place 40 days after his crucifixion and resurrection.

The underlined part talks about him calling on God.. and God answering him by rescuing and protecting him Now, we all know that Jesus did call on God for "the cup to pass from him" moments before his arrest.

He asked that the cup would pass from only if it was God's will. He also ended his prayer by asking that God's will, not his, be done. When he as arrested he refused to allow angels to rescue him because to do so would be to God against his fathers will.

Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?”
(Matthew 26:53-54 ESV)

The only thing there is about sacrifices in the OT is about animal sacrifice.... there is nothing about human sacrifice... which Christians claim Jesus was.

These sacrifices didn't actually take away sins. They were prophecies of what Jesus would do.

The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
(John 1:29 ESV)

And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
(Hebrews 10:11-14 ESV)

I'm quite familiar with how Christians cherry pick scriptures that can be applied to Jesus.

Muslims do the same thing. They accept the truth of those parts of the Bible that are compatible with their beliefs but reject those that contradict those beliefs.

Forget Pilate and Herod... when did Jesus ever mention anything about his execution being a "sin sacrifice"?

Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
(Luke 24:44-47 ESV)