Enoch, Elijah, Jesus and Psalm 91

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Like I always do?? Lol, calm down there guy. I already answered that, I said to look at what He said during the last supper in the book of Matthew.

I know about the last supper.

Even if Jesus was convinced he was going to be captured and executed, he made a last minute plea to God for the "cup to pass" before he was captured. Nobody was even around when he made that prayer to as all his companions were asleep. So who knew exactly what happened at that point?


He called on God and God saved him. As the psalm says.


14 “Because he loves me,” says the Lord, “I will rescue him;
I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.
15 He will call on me, and I will answer him;
I will be with him in trouble,
I will deliver him and honor him.


Did Jesus not love God? Did Jesus not acknowledge Gods name? Did Jesus not call on God?

Then why are you so convinced God didn't save Jesus

edit on 3-11-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

Multiple witnesses saw Him executed. And hostile source attestation which is extremely compelling evidence. His death is the most documented and scrutinized death in human history.

Originally posted by EfficientP
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

OP, You might want to check out this video. I leave it up to you if it's true or not.

South Korean pastor, Bo Ra Choi has been seeing visions of hell for the last several years. She has seen so many people in hell. She saw the Prophet Mhuhammad who was sufffering in torment in hell. Muhammad was screaming and shouting not to come to hell! The audio was recorded in the local church in South Korea during the worship service. She speaks in Korean of what she heard from Muhammad. She has also seen numerous people like former South Korean president, buddhist monks, etc. Heaven and hell is a real place! Jesus is the ' only way' to go to heaven: John 14:6 & Acts 4:12

i dint watch, but i can guess that she must have read Dante's divine comedy! And she is christian? What a surprise!!

when Jesus pbuh was asked to give a sign, he told he'l give the sign of Jonah pbuh.
If Jesus was like Jonah, remaining in the belly of a fish/earth.
Then was Jonah dead and raised back alive after 3 days? No.
So Jesus must also have to be alive to be like Jonah, otherwise he is not like Jonah as he claimed.
And about the time 3 days , 3 nights they dont add up, so that part is out of question to grab and say that he was just talking about time factor.
.
Also when a dead body is stabbed, it doesnt bleed. and the spear was poked in the side of chest, its just sensationalised as heart, to prove his death.
The chest may contain water as he was suffocating and it could lead to fluid in the pleural space(around lungs)
so the only thing blood and water prove is that he was alive.
.
Also he said he was thirsty and a sponge soaked in liquid was touched to his lips. During that time a medicated sponge like that was used to make people unconcious for small surgery etc (chloroform like action). It got activated when wet. and he soon after that became immobile(unconcious).
Even his leg was not broken and he remained on cross for just few hrs as they had to remove anyone crucified before evening. And crucifiction is a slow form of death and may take days.
Even pilate was surprised at the quick death, now he must have known much about crucifiction.
.
And obviously people who wanted to save him wouldnt scream that he is alive! but let the news of his death get recorded historically.
.
But later the apostles were persecuted when they claimed he is alive(not resurrected)
and why would romans care if some bunch of people claimed their master returned from the dead and then went to heaven. But they would take offense if they are told that they dint manage to kill him. Thats a slap to their functioning as a failed execution.

Originally posted by EfficientP
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

OP, You might want to check out this video. I leave it up to you if it's true or not.

South Korean pastor, Bo Ra Choi has been seeing visions of hell for the last several years. She has seen so many people in hell. She saw the Prophet Mhuhammad who was sufffering in torment in hell. Muhammad was screaming and shouting not to come to hell! The audio was recorded in the local church in South Korea during the worship service. She speaks in Korean of what she heard from Muhammad. She has also seen numerous people like former South Korean president, buddhist monks, etc. Heaven and hell is a real place! Jesus is the ' only way' to go to heaven: John 14:6 & Acts 4:12

Christ concious is the way not saying I belive in a human Idol called Jesus while doing selfish things. There are buddhist, muslism, hindus and others that have come from many smallminded human dogmatic views and trancended the prision of the mind and found clarity. You create where you are supposed to be by your actions. If you judge people that are ideal and harmoniosly peaceful to a burning hell then do you belive you will be allowed heaven because you think you are saying the right word/name?

Do you really think god would throw away wise souls sent by it here based on a technicality like saying I am not Christian? Those that are truly blessed in their soul will not be thrown away by god because god knows them to well and cannot and will not lose the beloved ones that does it's will.

Christianety does not in name equal higher ideals and love. We have seen that in the fruit created by that religion used by bullies killing people who know god to well for the priests.

reply to post by logical7


Jesus did bleed when he was pierced with the sword it is clearly written in the bible .Islamic lies can't undo the works of God .

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Psalms 120 tells of a war like people who lie that is from the seed of Ishmael . This psalm tells of the disgust for those people .
Isaiah 21 verse 16 says the glory of Kedar shall end in one year .
Those aren't very flattering verses referencing KEDAR

reply to post by SimonPeter

Psalms 120 tells of a war like people who lie that is from the seed of Ishmael .

The Psalms also speak of Jesus being saved from crucifixion.
Whats your point?
That you pick and choose Psalms as and when it fits your brainwashing beliefs?

Isaiah 21 verse 16 says the glory of Kedar shall end in one year .
Those aren't very flattering verses referencing KEDAR

But Isaiah 42 teaches good things about Kedar.
So whats your point? The bible is full of contradictions? Yep..... knew that all along.

Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by logical7

 

Jesus did bleed when he was pierced with the sword it is clearly written in the bible .Islamic lies can't undo the works of God .

thats what i said!! Although i read it was a spear but anyway not as issue. but dead bodies dont bleed. Adding 1 and 2, Jesus pbuh may not be dead when taken down, just wounded and unconcious.

reply to post by logical7

I don't know where you got your information from . When you pierce the heart you have opened up a reservoir of blood and it will run out along with the water around the heart . .

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Show me Psalms that says Jesus did not die during the crucifixion . It sounds like your Islam has lost it's footing .
With the terrible reputation of Mohammad as your prophet , I can understand that .

Mohammad had a real nice history. He killed and buried 600 Jews in the city of Mecca . He started the war against Christians and Jews . He was responsible for the murders of Arabs who opposed him , he robbed caravans and prophesied it to be ok to rape his captives even if they are married . He was a selfserving thug who commanded a bunch of thugs and forced Islam on others .
Nice , trustworthy Guy . The kind of fellow God would put in charge of his business

Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by logical7

 

I don't know where you got your information from . When you pierce the heart you have opened up a reservoir of blood and it will run out along with the water around the heart . .

He was dead, when he fell while carrying the cross and it fell on him it bruised his heart. His ordeal on the cross caused the bruise to rupture. When the Romans pierced his heart, the blood that had leaked into his pericardium mixed with the water that naturally surrounds the heart. When the Roman stabbed him, the water flowed out with the blood. He was dead as a doornail when they stabbed him, they already knew this, the stab was to make sure he really was dead. The entire reason they didn't break his legs like they did the thieves was because they knew he was already dead.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

The Islamic account of Jesus directly opposes the crucifixion story and has been a point of contention between Christians and Muslims. But what if the bible actually supports Islams claim that Jesus was indeed lifted up and was saved from crucifixion?

While I sympathize with what you are attempting, I don't think you can quite succeed. The Christian concept of the death and resurrection became front and center for all of Christianity. The story of Jesus getting killed and resurrected have become the gospel for most Christians.

"And We sent in their footsteps Jesus, son of Mary, authenticating what was present with him of the Torah. And We gave him the Gospel, in it was a guidance and a light, and authenticating what was present with him of the Torah, and a guidance and a lesson for the righteous."Qur'an V: 46

compare with:

Mark chapter 1: 1 The beginning of the Good News of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
. . .
14 Now after John was taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the Good News of the Kingdom of God, 15 and saying, "“The time is fulfilled, and the Kingdom of God is at hand! Repent, and believe in the Good News.”"

The gospel that Jesus preached himself was not about any death and resurrection. As you have observed later on in this thread, well actually prior to this post, Early believers in the teachings of Jesus got so caught up trying to prove that he was alive, though not present to be seen, that they overreached in their proving him out of the Old Testament. Once they thought they had actually proved him, they then thought that their "proof" was the gospel.

It would take a very liberal Christian indeed to come to the conclusion that the "death and resurrection" are peripheral to the gospel rather than central. It is easier for an atheist or agnostic to enter the kingdom of God than it would be for a Bible idolizing Christian.

I'll quote something that I posted on another thread earlier today, hopefully the mods don't catch me cross-posting.

Jesus made mention of himself, alluding also to the snake on a stick: John 3:14–15, "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life".

The "lifting up", should include the idea that once seen, he himself, was lifted all the way away, to become "the hidden man." We don't see him, yet some of his teachings remain. God achieved what reformers failed to do. Yet people have still managed to make an idol of Jesus, and his words, and words about him (New Testament worship).
...
The actual concrete version of the hidden man is actually the face of the people we do see, especially those in need. It is very difficult to think that we would accidently worship those in need. Little chance for idolatry there. Jesus set it up that way.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by SimonPeter

Show me Psalms that says Jesus did not die during the crucifixion . It sounds like your Islam has lost it's footing .

I can only re-direct you back to the OP. That was the whole purpose of this thread.

reply to post by pthena

While I sympathize with what you are attempting, I don't think you can quite succeed.

Succeed with regard to what? Convince? Convert? Here on ATS?
Nope.

The gospel that Jesus preached himself was not about any death and resurrection.

Exactly. Jesus' message had nothing to do with Christian doctrine about sin / sin sacrifice / belief in sin sacrifice for salvation. But Christians have made it that way by cut + pasting verses to make it seem like that was the entire point of Jesus existence on earth.

I'll quote something that I posted on another thread earlier today, hopefully the mods don't catch me cross-posting.
Jesus made mention of himself, alluding also to the snake on a stick: John 3:14–15, "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life".

The "lifting up", should include the idea that once seen, he himself, was lifted all the way away, to become "the hidden man." We don't see him, yet some of his teachings remain. God achieved what reformers failed to do.

Exactly.
The snake on a stick had people looking at the snake and being cured, i.e - saved from death by venom.
When Jesus referred to the son of man being "lifted up"....he said nothing about any torture instrument with him nailed on to it. Christians misinterpret what Jesus said to mean the 'lifting up' of the cross with Jesus nailed to it..... i.e - the dead Jesus that they believe died for their sins.

reply to post by pthena

Yet people have still managed to make an idol of Jesus, and his words, and words about him (New Testament worship).

I disagree.
Jesus' actual words have not been idolized by Christians.

What has been idolized are the various doctrines about Jesus' sin sacrifice. Whats even strange are the methods used to give Jesus sin sacrifice OT validity.

What they do is draw parallels between Jesus execution and Old Testament accounts of animal sacrifices...... (such as the sin offering, the paschal lamb and the ram in the thicket etc).... and in doing so, have reduced the messiah to a mere sacrificial animal.

This method of connecting the Roman style execution to Old Testament animal sacrifice has no biblical validity, but rather it is conjecture on the part of Christian theologians. Their method seems to be... something got sacrificed in the OT and Jesus got killed in the NT, so therefore it points to the same thing.
OR
there is blood being shed there and there is blood being shed over here, so therefore its the same thing.
Its this kind of thinking that has spread this bizarre bloodsoaked sacrifice theology around Jesus.

What Christians have missed out is the fact that Jesus was someone who came with a deep message unlike any other prophet, or religious figure. To love the enemy... not to be attached to the world... to turn the other cheek... to give your shirt to someone who is suing you for your coat... etc.

The difference between the muslims and christians regarding Jesus is this....

Muslims rejoice in the fact that God saved Jesus from those who were trying to kill him (as Psalm 91 says)

Christians rejoice in their belief that Jesus was tortured and nailed to a cross... because thats where their theology is rooted.

Jesus was as dead as Mohammad is to day but God raised him up on the third day . What ever happened to Mohammad ? He turned to dust . The Muslims have nothing to be happy about for there is nothing in Psalms chapter 91 referencing anything remotely like Islam . These Koran cats can't try to bluff us with a little research to prove them wrong . God help them if they actually believe their own statements . I understand it is right with Islam to lie , threaten with death or what ever to convert people to Islam . Sad! reply to post by lonewolf19792000

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

I disagree.
Jesus' actual words have not been idolized by Christians.

What has been idolized are the various doctrines about Jesus' sin sacrifice. Whats even strange are the methods used to give Jesus sin sacrifice OT validity.

To rephrase: The current generation of Christians did not decide what its canon of scripture is. They inherited it from an already established Roman Empire and Christian Council approved set of writings. That list of four canonical gospels is the source that Christians use to read the words of Jesus. That canon is idolized. The approved gospels include constructed or reconstructed accounts of what happened to Jesus. The accounts don't agree.

As for Roman world interaction from the earliest times, Christians latched onto the Old Testament as their claim to continuity with an older recognized religion: that of Judean practice and cult worship at the Jerusalem temple, possibly the most magnificent temple in the world while it existed. That caused pressure to explain Jesus to the world as if he were the capstone to the Old Testament, the fulfillment of the temple cult.

Unfortunately for Christianity, the only Christ concept available was the Zionist Messianic model. Anointed king on a throne in Zion, king David's city. So taking off from all the David praising Psalms, eg. 2, 110, and the 2nd half of Zechariah, "riding on an ass" "the one who was pierced", "the struck down shepherd", "two thirds destruction of the Jerusalem inhabitants" but eventual recognition of the King who would sit on a throne in Jerusalem and rule the whole world from Jerusalem, and all the people of the world would be required to worship a temple based deity as one and only god of the world, or else.

So a two comings were needed to fill this constructed requirement. I'm afraid Canonical 66 book Christianity has no way of avoiding being Zionist, either literal (dispensationalist) or figurative (Zion in heaven with Messiah on a throne in heaven).

Fundamentalist Christians do not allow that Jesus had the authority to relax Old Testament laws in favor of better laws, laws less racist and brutal, more humane and universal. They hold to all the racism and brutality. They hold to a view of a god who delighted in killing his own son ( for the sake of the blessed self identified believers ).

Can you provide the quote from Koran that says that God can forgive anyone He wants to, and isn't compelled by any requirement for blood sacrifice?

reply to post by pthena


Your research is lacking . The Old Testament was translated from the original Greek and Hebrew text . No matter who confiscated and kept them . In that Old Testament is the whole New Testament about the Lord Jesus coming as a sacrificial Lamb to bring grace and Mercy and forgiveness for sin . Also prophecy concerning the latter days was in the Old Testament that is told of in the book of Revelations .
The New Testament was not written in the timeline where the Romans destroyed the Temple in 69 AD . The Jewish Sanhedrin most assuredly would not have written it . And there has been many manuscripts in countries such as Egypt, Palistine, Turkey, Greece and Italy . They are dated as far back as 125 BC . These hand transcribed papyri manuscripts are 99.5 % in agreement .The Gospel of Jesus was spread in these somewhat remote places and not likely to have come from one itteration such as youy suppose .Again the Romans were not the Christians friends for sure and were not the sole sourse for Christianity . The Gospels were written down and copied by many and the Catholics may have collected it also . There are a couple of stark warnings about their church that the Catholics would have left out if they actually compromised the New Testament .