Measurements retroactively force photons to be both wave and particle, page 1

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Topic started on 1-11-2012 @ 05:37 PM by Aloysius the Gaul

Measurements retroactively force photons to be both wave and particle

arstechnica.com

Researchers have now found a way to put a photon in a quantum superposition where it is both a wave and a particle at the same time. Worse still, one setup allows them to determine the photon's nature as a wave or particle after it has gone through an apparatus where it must act as one or the other.

Got that? Didn't think so, so let's go through it in more detail.

(visit the link for the full news article)

reply posted on 1-11-2012 @ 05:37 PM by Aloysius the Gaul

My brain hurts!!

Just when you thought that the potential for quantum physics to explain the soul was bad enough, along comes this.

so as far as I can tell there's a little bit of something like time travel involved -

Through a careful manipulation of its polarization, researchers were able to set the first photon (the one that went through the apparatus) into a superposition of wave and particle states, meaning it was an indeterminate mixture of the two. By changing how they handled the second photon, they could also control the probabilities of this superposition, making it more wave or particle-like on demand. As with the other experiment, they did this all after the first photon had been through the device and been measured by the two detectors.

arstechnica.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

edit on 1-11-2012 by Aloysius the Gaul because: spelling

reply posted on 1-11-2012 @ 05:53 PM by zilebeliveunknown

Not so fast... photons are smarter than our physics.

One objection to this is that there could be some mechanism by which a photon could detect the sort of device it's about to enter and behave accordingly.

Wait..What!? Photons have consciousness!? Orrrrr we don't have that level of consciousness!?
I'm stopping right there

edit on 1-11-2012 by zilebeliveunknown because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 1-11-2012 @ 06:03 PM by VoidHawk

Originally posted by zilebeliveunknown
Wait..What!? Photons have consciousness!?

Stop cruelty to photons!
Photons should have rights too!

It seems the more we learn about this stuff the more we realise we know very little.

reply posted on 1-11-2012 @ 06:08 PM by Hijinx

Ahhhh Quantum Theory, always stand ground claiming the understand and are the key to the universe, but shatter their " Rules " all the time. This experiment, according to physics(before these types of experiment.) Should have been impossible, how ever now it's not the case because it happens.....

You've heard of the double slit experiment right?

reply posted on 1-11-2012 @ 06:12 PM by PhoenixOD

I dont think this has anything to do with time travel.

YouTube Link

reply posted on 1-11-2012 @ 06:15 PM by adjensen

Here's another article on the experiments, from New Scientist. I found it fairly easy to follow, because I like Schrödinger's Cat, lol.

Entangle Schrödinger's cat to up its quantum weirdness.

reply posted on 1-11-2012 @ 07:12 PM by Cuervo

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

I have come to the conclusion that the amount of media attention superposition experiments get is directly related to the level of discomfort it gives to established particle physicists and religious clergy.

reply posted on 1-11-2012 @ 08:23 PM by bowtomonkey

Actually, just makes intuitive sense and when I watch docco's about the leading physicists battling with the double slit strangeness it seems somewhat obvious and unexciting. It is a wave. There is no such thing as a particle. What I don't understand is how consciousness is able to enact change purely by drawing energy to something through concentration. It can't, but our genetic being seems to, or our ego thinks it can and behind all this supposed movement is a big 'what for', which I'm just not getting.

reply posted on 1-11-2012 @ 08:44 PM by Cauliflower

The thing about Bells theorem is that its a back door that probably makes some people a lot of money! Think of it this way, suppose there is a superposition of information and Bob only knows some of the elements that make up the superposition. Alice adds just a few extra esoteric elements to the superposition shared with you. Now the superposition collapses correctly for you and Alice but not for Bob.

reply posted on 1-11-2012 @ 08:56 PM by adjensen

reply to post by Cuervo

Hey, I'm extremely religious, and the only issue that I have with Quantum Mechanics is non-physicists who use it to explain how magic is possible. Well, that and anyone who says that we understand QM, lol -- we've barely begun to understand it.

reply posted on 1-11-2012 @ 09:00 PM by Semicollegiate

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

As with the other experiment, they did this all after the first photon had been through the device and been measured by the two detectors.

Could be time travel.

Also though, a wave is connected to its medium and so is connected to everything, all of the time. With this in mind, it could be that all of the photons in the experiment were connected and, changing one part of the stream of electrons caused another part to compensate. The photon already through the detector was still connected in some way to the subsequent photon.

One of the fundamental laws of physics is Comservation of Energy. This law means that the total amount of energy, matter and on the sub-atomic level, quality, stays the same. Energy is never created or destroyed, it can only stay the same or change in some way.

Normally changes in a photon would cause effects that are randomly (because we don't know that equation yet) distributed through out the surrounding space. Since this experiment had only one other photon in the area, that photon got all of the effect. In other words the pair of photons stayed the same in the sum total of their qualities, even though each photon was switched into a different state.

edit on 1-11-2012 by Semicollegiate because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 1-11-2012 @ 09:04 PM by Cuervo

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by Cuervo

Hey, I'm extremely religious, and the only issue that I have with Quantum Mechanics is non-physicists who use it to explain how magic is possible. Well, that and anyone who says that we understand QM, lol -- we've barely begun to understand it.

Keep in mind that religion is analogous to "magic" in the eyes of science so you may have more in common with those guys than you think.

reply posted on 1-11-2012 @ 09:16 PM by adjensen

Originally posted by Cuervo

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by Cuervo

Hey, I'm extremely religious, and the only issue that I have with Quantum Mechanics is non-physicists who use it to explain how magic is possible. Well, that and anyone who says that we understand QM, lol -- we've barely begun to understand it.

Keep in mind that religion is analogous to "magic" in the eyes of science so you may have more in common with those guys than you think.

Not at all -- I'm a methodological naturalist, but not a philosophical one, and ne'er the twain shall meet. I don't need quantum mechanics, or any science, for that matter, to explain the attributes and actions of God, and I don't need God to explain science, so I don't.

No, I'm referring to New Age noodle heads, like the producers of "What the (bleep) Do We Know?" and similar claptrap that uses misunderstandings of QM to claim that anything is possible and that their outlandish claims of supra-natural behaviour is easily validated by physics that they don't understand.

For some reason, my position of "theistic skepticism" seems to tick off a lot of people, lol.

reply posted on 1-11-2012 @ 09:21 PM by Hijinx

Originally posted by PhoenixOD
I dont think this has anything to do with time travel.

YouTube Link

Actually it's very similar, they are both superpositions, and just like the experiment in the OP both seem to provide different results when observed.

I see no time travel here.

reply posted on 1-11-2012 @ 09:25 PM by Hijinx

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by Cuervo

Hey, I'm extremely religious, and the only issue that I have with Quantum Mechanics is non-physicists who use it to explain how magic is possible. Well, that and anyone who says that we understand QM, lol -- we've barely begun to understand it.

My issue with physics is similar. You can't claim to know anything at all, when all you've been able to observe is in the near vicinity of earth. There is a whole universe no human will ever apply a correct equation and understanding to.

reply posted on 1-11-2012 @ 09:25 PM by Cuervo

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Cuervo

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by Cuervo

Hey, I'm extremely religious, and the only issue that I have with Quantum Mechanics is non-physicists who use it to explain how magic is possible. Well, that and anyone who says that we understand QM, lol -- we've barely begun to understand it.

Keep in mind that religion is analogous to "magic" in the eyes of science so you may have more in common with those guys than you think.

Not at all -- I'm a methodological naturalist, but not a philosophical one, and ne'er the twain shall meet. I don't need quantum mechanics, or any science, for that matter, to explain the attributes and actions of God, and I don't need God to explain science, so I don't.

No, I'm referring to New Age noodle heads, like the producers of "What the (bleep) Do We Know?" and similar claptrap that uses misunderstandings of QM to claim that anything is possible and that their outlandish claims of supra-natural behaviour is easily validated by physics that they don't understand.

For some reason, my position of "theistic skepticism" seems to tick off a lot of people, lol.

Somehow, I have managed to avoid seeing that movie. I still think I'm picking up what you are throwing down, though. Personally, I agree with your stance that we don't understand physics as a whole.

But I also believe that science and spirituality (religion, magic, whatever) will reach an apex that will justify one another. I'm attracted to the holomovement theory and that's just one example of how you can't box up faith and call it unscientific.

edit on 1-11-2012 by Cuervo because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 1-11-2012 @ 09:37 PM by adjensen

Originally posted by Cuervo
I'm attracted to the holomovement theory and that's just one example of how you can't box up faith and call it unscientific.

I've not run across that theory before, but it looks interesting. I've bookmarked a page on it for later study, thanks.

reply posted on 1-11-2012 @ 09:51 PM by OccamsRazor04

Originally posted by VoidHawk

Originally posted by zilebeliveunknown
Wait..What!? Photons have consciousness!?

Stop cruelty to photons!
Photons should have rights too!

It seems the more we learn about this stuff the more we realise we know very little.

That is true, except we are learning about it because we know very little. Not sure why you think we have thought this was all understood.

I question whether have the level of technology needed to truly do unbiased scientific testing of this nature.

reply posted on 1-11-2012 @ 11:31 PM by TheSparrowSings

How to view a photon - for dummies