just to add to u're post american mad man, u guys wouldn't have been the first to breach the sound barrier, if the Su-something, forgot sry, someone mentioned it on a post somewhere else, well, anyways, if it wasn't cancelled, Stalin cancelled the project, and it was ready a full year before the F-100 was ready, or w/e jet broke the sound barrier

You misunderstand Dima. The X-1 was the first aircraft to break the sound barrier and its only rival was the M.52 which was cancelled in 1946 when almost ready. The Su-17 which I mentioned earlier would have been russia's first supersonic aircraft when it flew in 1949 and unlike the other two projects it was also to be a service fighter, this is where the Russians had the lead over everyone but Stalin threw it away.

Originally posted by longbow


I supose you are still talking about planes, so let's see... I said during cold war USSR was always 5-10 years behind, just few examples (dates of entry into the service for compareable planes ) :

USA USSR
F-4 - 1962 Mig - 23 -1971 (9 years behind)
Mig - 25 - after 1971????
f-15 - 1972 Su-27 - 1984 (12 years! behind)
f-16 - 1979 Mig-29 - 1983-84 (only 5 years behind)

For me it looks like US have always been ahead and the russians were only catching up. The most interesting thing are the 3rd gen planes. The USA introduced it's 3rd gen plane (f-15) almost together with 2nd gen russian (Mig-26,25).

Absurd....the mig23 was an much better fighter than the F4 (the flogger only entered in service when the medium range missile technology grew enought, in all those 9 years the russians were very happy with their fishbeds), the first version of the f15 was the F15A that plane just suck (even the mig23 was better in dogfight), the f15C (truly an respected oponet) entered in service in the 80s, the F16 didnt have BVR (the Mig29 did), and the Su27 is an muuuuuuch better plane than the F15C, the Mig 25 have unique qualities (and it have an agility comparable with the F15a-f14), the russians always had waiting the american step, then they design their response....

Anyway that is not the main topic, soooo Mad American, Dima, Longbow, etc... we could retorn to the original thread??????

Originally posted by grunt
Anyway that is not the main topic, soooo Mad American, Dima, Longbow, etc... we could retorn to the original thread??????

Agreed - I'll eave it by saying this: The USA, IMHO, is the most advanced country in the world as far as aircraft goes, and have been - obviously speaking in "overall" terms - for a long time. That does not mean that every aircraft we have designed is better, or that every achievement we have made superior.

Any way, back to the SR-71 debate, I think it is safe to say that, while not invulnerable, it would take a lot of factors that are unlikely to occur for one to get shot down by another aircraft based solely on the SR-71s speed.

Originally posted by grunt
Absurd....the mig23 was an much better fighter than the F4 (the flogger only entered in service when the medium range missile technology grew enought, in all those 9 years the russians were very happy with their fishbeds), the first version of the f15 was the F15A that plane just suck (even the mig23 was better in dogfight), the f15C (truly an respected oponet) entered in service in the 80s, the F16 didnt have BVR (the Mig29 did), and the Su27 is an muuuuuuch better plane than the F15C, the Mig 25 have unique qualities (and it have an agility comparable with the F15a-f14),

Mig-23 was better in dogfight than f-15? Mig 25 has agility comparable to F-15? You can tell such things about Sukhoi or Mig-29, but Syrians would say another thing (Bekaa valley).
Show me some links claiming that Mig-23*mig-25 is better in AA combat than F-15. And please tell me whats the maneuvrability difference betveen F-15A and F-15C.

the russians always had waiting the american step, then they design their response....

Yes and that's why I said "they were always 5-10 years behind".

[edit on 24-11-2004 by longbow]

no, it wouldn't be that hard to take out an SR-71 now because many russian missiles can go past Mach 4

i wonder how russia's gunna respond to America reaching Mach 10, i know that the aircraft(X-43 i believe) is meant for use in space, but couldn't u tweak it a little bit and make it into a reconnaissance vehicle, i thik russia would be worried about that, they would probably restart the Project 701(similar to the MiG 1.42/1.44) and use different engines, probably scramjet as well

The problem with shooting down a vehicle such as the SR-71 with missiles is that by the time you have a lock it is already gone. I believe the US should bring back the version of the SR-71 that was armed with air to air missiles.

AJAX and Tu 2000 will never be coming out.

Originally posted by longbow


Mig-23 was better in dogfight than f-15? Mig 25 has agility comparable to F-15? You can tell such things about Sukhoi or Mig-29, but Syrians would say another thing (Bekaa valley).
Show me some links claiming that Mig-23*mig-25 is better in AA combat than F-15. And please tell me whats the maneuvrability difference betveen F-15A and F-15C.


Yes and that's why I said "they were always 5-10 years behind".

[edit on 24-11-2004 by longbow]

longbow, the f15A airframe was designed only for 7gs maneuvres ,with lower corner speed (similar of the mig23, but it have an 8gs limit), the f15C can achieve 9gs, both mig23-25 were better planes (better that the f15A), especialy above 5000-6000mts the problem with the american 4th generation planes was the high bypass turbofans, almost all shutdowns made by the f15 was BVR radar-sparrows interceptions, but when an mig21MF passed that mediun range defense into a dogfight the f15s pilots began to piss,i have explained the syrians question before, about the links, well are the same that said "the foxbat only have 5gs limit", but that limit is supersonic, one must have tech-criterie

About the topic, well, again the missile speed is the true speed the launching plataform increase the total speed (an phoenix also can reach M6)

Wanna bet, Russia already has ALL their 5 Generation Warplanes built/ready to rock and roll even T-95 tanks all they need now is a 10 million man Rus Army Draft and how Rus will do that is by just siting back till after the 2005 Inaguration of Bush and after that Bush will either atack Iran or have jews attack Iran then all of a sudden Russia will start showing these planes and get ready for WW3 all these reports about Rus/India Rus/China working to build Planes-Missles is to throw off Stupid American Gov so they (Rus) can "LOOK" like they are 10 years behind in their 21st century Upgrades before THE BIG BAG ON America (WWIII) YANKS SHOULDN'T HAVE NEVER MESSED WITH Serbia now Rus will make you PAY like never before when you least expect it, HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!

[edit on 25-11-2004 by SiberianTiger]

[edit on 25-11-2004 by SiberianTiger]

Well, just back from Destin. Saw an F-22 take off in a four ship of F-15's from Eglin. Good looking plane.

Pugachev's cobra............LMAO yeah ok. The F-16 ( GENERAL DYNAMICS not Lockheed ). CG is so off it can't fly without computers. Fun manuever to watch. The F-16 can do it all day long. The Fighting Falcon can SUSTAIN a 9 G turn. Cobra LOL..... Remember the Mig29 was the response to the F-16 . No usefull reason to use this manuever *cobra* other than to thrill the crowd. The SU-37 can do a flip. So what?? It would get shot down by a Cessna Birddog before it finishes. Watch Sean Tucker do his stuff. You will see what a plane can do. Every Air Force can point out its hero pilots. The best of the best. The Sierra Hotel jock of the day. I do believe that the era of the close dog fight has come close to an end. BVR. Shoot first ask later. Shoot em before they even know you are there. BUT, Fighter Pilots to this day INSIST on a gun. Missile or no missile. Its the mentality it takes to do that job. I have a lot of dead friends, especially from the early F-16. Call it the Great Santini syndrom. Who's the best pilot ya ever saw??? Yer lookin at him.




The Space Shuttle...........Huge mistake NOW. Time to get rid of it. Rutan proved it can be done cheaply. The wing made it possible. Works like a shuttle cock in badmitton. Pure Genious. On May 13 2004 Space Ship One flew at Mach Mach 2.5 to 64.3 km. And you don't think an SR-71 can do Mach 4????? OMG FORGIVE ME, I JUST ABOUT PEED MY PANTS FROM LAUGHING. It leaks like a sieve on the ground to allow for aerodynamic heating and expansion. Reaches about 1000 degrees. Takes off, gets a how do ya do refuel, then balls to the wall and the blue diamond thank ya for the drink and good bye.

Keep in mind that ALL spacecraft, Russian or U.S. are lifting bodies. From Mercury to Apollo and Soyuz. They can be manuevered by tilting.

The United States won the cold war with the B-2 bomber. End of story. It bankrupted the U.S.S.R. as they could no longer keep up the spending pace. It was litterally a dollar for ruble war. The Berlin Wall fell and it was over.

They WERE brilliant designers. Great a copying things. They manufactured their own B-29's from captured planes and designed an F-4 from a Revell model kit. We stole from them and they stole from us. They stole nuke design and we stole swing wing. Great trade huh???

[edit on 11/28/2004 by just_a_pilot]

uwow, i'm surprised, u guys didn't make the ussr collapse


u guys didn't do anything to russia, russia fell into an economic slow down in the mid 80's, because Gorbachev was elected president, he had all this glasnost and perestroika stuff shoved so far up his butt by americans that it evidently led to the colapse of the mighty ussr

u guys were scared of russia, read a few books buddy, u guys were so scared, that u started making russia eliminate missiles that weren't even supposed to be eliminated, like the Oka 23, under some treaty for russia and america to ban all long range cruise missiles or something like that, the Oka was a short range missile, yet, since america didn't have any counter to it, and were scared #less, they made russia stop production

the B-2 didn't make the ussr break up

*mod edit to remove personal attacks*

[edit on 29-11-2004 by Banshee]

Ouch, did you drink a little to much vodka tonight? Calm down comrade.

i'm only 15, not old enough to drink vodka

Originally posted by Dima
u really are an idiot, wow, i'm surprised, u guys didn't make the ussr collapse u imbisile...

Chill out man. No reason to start calling people names.

For your information, it was the US that beat Russia. We were spending over a trillion dollars a year on the military (1.3 was the peak, if i remember) during the Reagan (RIP) years. The fact is that Russia just could not keep up. It got to the point that they had to keep spending money they couldn't afford to keep up with the USA. It's basic modern history, you'd do yourself well to learn it.

[edit on 29-11-2004 by American Mad Man]

Originally posted by Dima
i'm only 15, not old enough to drink vodka

And that explains it

Listen kid, I understand that you are tied to Russia, and love her military. And believe me, anyone who has half a brain understands and respects just how powerfull she is. But you must understand, a lot of their technology was over hyped - as we found out many times when their men would defect.

As far as the SR-71 is concerned, I don't think you get just how fast Mach 3 is. To identify it, track it, target it, and hit it is not as simple as just saying that Russia has a missle that is faster then it.

Could Russia take one down? Under the right circumstances, yes. Is it likely to happen in real world situations? Definatly not. It just does not leave you with enough time to do so because of it's speed.