Mig-25 vs SR-71

I have thirty years of aviation in my "rear view", Air Force, Navy, a bunch of civilian Dod contractor and a lot of civilian experience, and even now, Air National Guard. Out of all the birds I've worked on or around, the Blackbird still thrills me. I find it amazing that it was designed and built in the late fifties. I have always had the gut feeling that it was a "gift" to us. I had the pleasure to see it fly in the mid-seventies. You could build that airframe today and pack a "glass cockpit" in it and it would still give our enemies fits.

You could build that airframe today and pack a "glass cockpit" in it and it would still give our enemies fits.

Right on.

Originally posted by mxboy15u
Turned out you were all inflatable tanks and unshielded reactors.

- All?

And we were able to spend that money and come out with some usable technology.

- Hmmm, given your trade gap I'd say much of that tech ended up being of little practical use to you (what do you make that anyone wants?

Your military stuff is now so high tech you can't sell it beyond maybe 5 friendly nations and we don't go in for that bloating out our military for the sake of it anyway).
Your budget deficit shows you too have been sucked into a spiral of military spending which as well as bankrupting the old USSR is possibly going to come back and do similar to you guys.

Where is the Russian SR-71?

- Why should there be one?
The Russian threat was always more myth than fact (see 'Bomber gap' & 'Missile gap')...... until the late 1970's when the paranoia of the previous 2 nearly 3 decades actually did spark off the kind of 'build up' and real tension that almost brought us extinction.

Where is the Russian (working) space shuttle?

- Cancelled.....just like the US one should have been as it utterly failed in it's design mission to produce quickly turned around, cheap, safe and affordable space flight.

Whose space shuttle did that look like anyways... Could have at least painted it a different color. All it does is piggyback around anyways.

- Aerodynamics dictate.
If you're going to call for that kind of spec expect that kind of look.

Originally posted by American Mad Man
I remember Cook saying that the competitor of the Blackbird was revealed to be a Mach 6 125,000+ft spy plane and it lost! I'm not an USAF insider or anything, but if that plane LOST to the blackbird, then the SR-71 must have been able to come at least close to those figures.

- ......or the whole story could be exaggerated guff for young schoolboys and their excitable imaginations.

If the SR71 could have reached such speeds and heights the most likely outcome would have been that they would have been announced (or, as with the SR71 specs we know now, close to them would have been announced).
Prestige would have been the reason why along with the enormous economic strains it would have placed on the USSR to try to counter such a threat and the additional stategy demands countering it would have placed on them.

Hell, it may not beat them and may have won the comp because of longer range or payload, but any idiot can figure out that what the SR-71 is capable of will not be known untill those capabillities can be matched by weapons and airframes of other nations.

- AMM, come on, stop it.
This is just you guessing and working off a story that you have no clue as to whether it was real or not.

The speed and height race stopped when it did because - then - no matter how quickly or high an aircraft went a radar could always spot it and a missile - or salvo of missiles - could always hit it.....especially when they all got around to the idea of the anti-air mini-nuclear warhead.

Otherwise they'd still be making the damed things.....in large quantity.



[edit on 19-11-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by SiberianTiger
I've read in a book that an SR-71 vanished in flight during the coldwar and till this day it has NEVER been seen again has anyone read/heard about this before I'll try and

Yes, one of the Habu flights off of Okinawa was returning back to the states. The plane and its flight crew were never found. Don't have the exact date or crew name for you.

the russian spy plane is so secret, the americans don't even know it exists, u fool,s u people, and america in genral obviously didn't know a tiny rats ass on what was going on in the USSR and what has recently been going on in,Russia, several projects have just restarted

oh, and by the way, now that russia has the Adder, boy oh boy, watch out america, it is the best missile in the world, it can go Mach 4, sry, not 4.5 and rip u guys a new one, lol, i luv saying that, but wat do u guys care, u're obviously so caught up in this american propaganda bull# that its impossible to sway u're pathetic views on russian equipment

jus wait, last point, well second last, u know all this new techology crap thats coming out of america, well, i hope that u don't accredit these discoveries to american scientists, lol, u know that after the dissolution of the USSR, 500, 000 scientists emigrated from russia, and most of them came to the US, the US didn't even know they had over 40, 000 scientists, and during the 1990's, america bought so many different technology's from russia,
hahaha, hu's laughing now, so, don't be so proud, for all u know, half the F-22 could have been created by russian scientists

in my previous post, when i said tiny rats, i meant to continue, and say tiny rats ass, lol

k, Sminkey Pinkey, i just have two deals to settle wit u

firstwhenn u said that Russia is bankrupt, u obviously have absolutely no geopolitical knowledge of the world buddy, russia has one of the top 30 fastest growing economies in the world, go to cia.gov...

and it will show u how quckly the russian economy is rebounding

and russian space shuttles, first of all, Soyz rockets have the same task and purpose as a Space Shuttle, so u are have very limited knowledge in common space, and russia aslso had the Buran space shuttle, which is soo much better than the american space shuttles, it could carry a much larger payload(research about it) and, was and still is the only space shuttle to be able to land automatically, so please, do some research before u state stupid things

regrettably, Buran was cancelled i think in 1988 because of a lack of funding, Buran was also the reason why the An-225 MRiya was created, the world's largest plane

Originally posted by Dima
the russian spy plane is so secret, the americans don't even know it exists, u fool,s u people, and america in genral obviously didn't know a tiny rats ass on what was going on in the USSR and what has recently been going on in,Russia, several projects have just restarted

And you know about something ? Are you working in some secret russian research project?

oh, and by the way, now that russia has the Adder, boy oh boy, watch out america, it is the best missile in the world, it can go Mach 4, sry, not 4.5 and rip u guys a new one, lol, i luv saying that, but wat do u guys care, u're obviously so caught up in this american propaganda bull# that its impossible to sway u're pathetic views on russian equipment

Sorry to dissapoint you, but most modern misilles (including Amraam) are able to reach Mach 4.5.

oh thats such a lie
lol, i'm pissing my pants laughing at that, the AMRAAM can't go anywhere near Mach 4.5 hahahahahahaha

and yea, my dad's uncle is still in Moldova, it was a part of the Soviet Union, one of the smaller countries, i was born there, the russian still operate research facilities, in other countries, and um, no one knows about Saratov base,...........................................exactly, noe u really know how secret russian projects are kept, really, try not to have such negative views,

i myself appreciate the SR-71, for its speed and alttitude, and it looks pretty sick too, but it cannot go to the claimed speed of over Mach 4, thats just ludicrous, guys u have to think reasonably, the corrugations inside the plane would start tearing, and the metal that its made out of could only stand up to the amoun of heat generated at Mach 3.6-3.7

yea, my dad's uncle wrked on the project, it was called something like the M-X5, it was supposed to enter its testing phase right around 2001-2002, started in 1980, it was a MiG plane, and had nothing to deal with the 1.42/44, that was the first thing i asked him when i met him three months ago, moldova is soo beautiful, sure there are criminals runnin around the streets, but it was ALOT OF FUN, seriously, when i came bak to canada, once i was at the airport, i was already sad

Originally posted by Dima
firstwhenn u said that Russia is bankrupt, u obviously have absolutely no geopolitical knowledge of the world buddy, russia has one of the top 30 fastest growing economies in the world, go to cia.gov...

and it will show u how quckly the russian economy is rebounding

- Dima you will obviously surprised to know that a lot of what you said I have no disagreement with.

I have no doubt Russia will 'rebound'. The sustained rise in the price of oil alone means she has a better funding position than before.

But let's not kid ourselves, it is a 'rebounding' from a very low base......and all economies in that kind of position can turn in some impressive growth figures.

and russian space shuttles, first of all, Soyz rockets have the same task and purpose as a Space Shuttle, so u are have very limited knowledge in common space

- Actually I'd say a disposable roocket like Soyuz has very little in common with a reusable shuttle type vehicle.
But that's just my opinion.

russia aslso had the Buran space shuttle, which is soo much better than the american space shuttles, it could carry a much larger payload(research about it) and, was and still is the only space shuttle to be able to land automatically, so please, do some research before u state stupid things

- Yeah, actually I did know Buran had a heavier lifting capability and that it could fly (as it did the one and only time it flew) fully automatically.

Nevertheless Buran is a very similar concept and craft to the American Space Shuttle.

This is because a lifting body designed to do similar job will, more often than not, end up looking quite similar.

If you think that is 'bashing' Russia feel free; I don't suppose I can convince you otherwise.
But I am telling you I have a very high regard for Russian tech and it has not been my intention to 'bash' Russia or it's many excellent acomplishments.

[edit on 19-11-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

i know u weren't intedning on bacshing rusian technology, because i read that statement, and u were contradicting american things as well(the british are okay, only tony blair is messed up)

and, were not starting from a low base as everyone thinks, russia has the 9 or 10th largest economy in the world, so were not that far back, and everyone else in front of russia, is growing at a slower pace except china, which is growing at bout 2% faster each year, and every now and then, India and Russia get really close growth rates

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

Originally posted by American Mad Man
I remember Cook saying that the competitor of the Blackbird was revealed to be a Mach 6 125,000+ft spy plane and it lost! I'm not an USAF insider or anything, but if that plane LOST to the blackbird, then the SR-71 must have been able to come at least close to those figures.

- ......or the whole story could be exaggerated guff for young schoolboys and their excitable imaginations.

If the SR71 could have reached such speeds and heights the most likely outcome would have been that they would have been announced (or, as with the SR71 specs we know now, close to them would have been announced).
Prestige would have been the reason why along with the enormous economic strains it would have placed on the USSR to try to counter such a threat and the additional stategy demands countering it would have placed on them.

Dude - the real specs for the SR-71 are still secret to this day. The SR-71 STILL holds every speed record and any time anything comes close they fly one and push the throttle a tad more, beat the other aircraft, and readjust the "max speed".

Prestige? Who cares about that when vital national secrets are concerned? Give me a break! You don't just announce the limits of an aircraft to make the enemy spend money to counter it - just like the F/A-22 is stated at a Mach 1.8 aircraft. Yeah right! The US isn't going to just give away it's aircrafts limits - they give you a low figure, and make the enemy try and figure out what it can do.

I mean, just take a look at a normal fighter - they are generally in the low/mid Mach 2 class. Now look at the Blackbird - clearly a LOT more aerodynamic, and CLEARLY has A LOT more thrust.

Hell, it may not beat them and may have won the comp because of longer range or payload, but any idiot can figure out that what the SR-71 is capable of will not be known untill those capabillities can be matched by weapons and airframes of other nations.

- AMM, come on, stop it.
This is just you guessing and working off a story that you have no clue as to whether it was real or not.

The speed and height race stopped when it did because - then - no matter how quickly or high an aircraft went a radar could always spot it and a missile - or salvo of missiles - could always hit it.....especially when they all got around to the idea of the anti-air mini-nuclear warhead.

Otherwise they'd still be making the damed things.....in large quantity.

This was reported by Nick Cook (aviation editor of Janes defense...Yes, your very own nations best selling military publication) in his book "The Hunt For Zero Point" in which he interviews the chief designer of the Blackbirds competitor aircraft. I think that guy knows better then you or I about what HIS aircraft could do. I am just going off of what HE says - not some BS "source" I have or some cockamamy nut jobs book. This guy is in more of a position to know then any other civillian.

Think about it - the US had the materials to allow a space ship to come back to Earth at Mach 25, so it's not like that was a problem. Thrust really isn't that much of a problem either. As the book said, the problem with the aircraft was mainly cost and range. Thats why the Blackbird beat it out. Most likely the Blackbird isn't a Mach 6 125K ft spyplane like the other one, but it must be some where in that range if it beat it out.

And like I pointed out, just compare the Blackbird to any normal fighter. Are you telling me that with all of that additional thrust and the MUCH more aerodynamic shape that all it can pull is an extra Mach .5? Yeah right.

Originally posted by Dima
the russian spy plane is so secret, the americans don't even know it exists, u fool,s u people, and america in genral obviously didn't know a tiny rats ass on what was going on in the USSR and what has recently been going on in,Russia, several projects have just restarted

oh, and by the way, now that russia has the Adder, boy oh boy, watch out america, it is the best missile in the world, it can go Mach 4, sry, not 4.5 and rip u guys a new one, lol, i luv saying that, but wat do u guys care, u're obviously so caught up in this american propaganda bull# that its impossible to sway u're pathetic views on russian equipment

jus wait, last point, well second last, u know all this new techology crap thats coming out of america, well, i hope that u don't accredit these discoveries to american scientists, lol, u know that after the dissolution of the USSR, 500, 000 scientists emigrated from russia, and most of them came to the US, the US didn't even know they had over 40, 000 scientists, and during the 1990's, america bought so many different technology's from russia,
hahaha, hu's laughing now, so, don't be so proud, for all u know, half the F-22 could have been created by russian scientists

HAHA - worst post ever. The F/A-22 was designed in the 1980's - so no Russian scientists there.

Russian spy plane? Sorry to inform you, but after the USSR broke up it would have leaked. And even if they did have one, they couldn't affoard to fly it now anyways.

500,00 scientists? Show me a link. Even if they didn, it's not like the US doesn''t have it's own scientists. Besides, scientists don't mean that much - the results do. And the US has more results then Russia.

In other words, I'M LAUGHING NOW!!!!!

Originally posted by American Mad Man
[Dude - the real specs for the SR-71 are still secret to this day.

- I'm not denying that AMM. I do think we are there or there abouts with what we have on it now though.

The SR-71 STILL holds every speed record and any time anything comes close they fly one and push the throttle a tad more, beat the other aircraft, and readjust the "max speed".

- Again I do not deny the SR71 holds records......although extending them now would be a tad difficult with none available for that kind of flying anymore?

Prestige? Who cares about that when vital national secrets are concerned? Give me a break!

- Sorry mate but 'prestige' was a great big deal when there were 2 systems of government competing in the world.....hell, regardless of all the other claims made for it the fact is we spent vast fortunes going to the moon first over mere 'prestige'.

You don't just announce the limits of an aircraft to make the enemy spend money to counter it - just like the F/A-22 is stated at a Mach 1.8 aircraft. Yeah right! The US isn't going to just give away it's aircrafts limits - they give you a low figure, and make the enemy try and figure out what it can do.

- I doubt it would happen now but then the situation is so changed.
But back in the 50's and 60's they did give fair ideas over specs. They just did matey, it's a fact.
Record flights especailly were a big deal with the latest Russian stuff contesting records with the latest US stuff.....and you were supposed to infer that F15's could all perform like a 'Streak Eagle' or the YE - 155 told you everything about Mig 25's etc.

I mean, just take a look at a normal fighter - they are generally in the low/mid Mach 2 class. Now look at the Blackbird - clearly a LOT more aerodynamic, and CLEARLY has A LOT more thrust.

- Yes that is true.
It is also true that the power requirement to go fly faster works on a logarithmical scale and not a straight-forward and linear one.
In other words to go 10% faster does not require 10% more power but maybe 100% (the square) more power.

Therefore seeing a Blackbird with 2 big J58's rated around the 32,500lb mark does not mean approx 45% more speed than an F4 phantom with J79's rated around the 18 000lb.

This was reported by Nick Cook (aviation editor of Janes defense...Yes, your very own nations best selling military publication) in his book "The Hunt For Zero Point" in which he interviews the chief designer of the Blackbirds competitor aircraft. I think that guy knows better then you or I about what HIS aircraft could do. I am just going off of what HE says - not some BS "source" I have or some cockamamy nut jobs book. This guy is in more of a position to know then any other civillian.

- Yes, that is true. It is also true that people can disinform or be misquoted or misprinted.

Think about it - the US had the materials to allow a space ship to come back to Earth at Mach 25, so it's not like that was a problem. Thrust really isn't that much of a problem either. As the book said, the problem with the aircraft was mainly cost and range. Thats why the Blackbird beat it out. Most likely the Blackbird isn't a Mach 6 125K ft spyplane like the other one, but it must be some where in that range if it beat it out.

- What's the bets the 'range' was one of range (due to fule consumption),practicality, cost and time to production?

Of course the outright speeds were possible, as you say orbit alone means you must have made 17000mph.....but consider just how much fuel is used achieving that!

And like I pointed out, just compare the Blackbird to any normal fighter. Are you telling me that with all of that additional thrust and the MUCH more aerodynamic shape that all it can pull is an extra Mach .5? Yeah right.

- Well believe it or not yes that is exactly my thougts on the matter.
I believe a top speed around the mach 3.5 - 3.8 range and an operating height of 100 - 120 000ft.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- What's the bets the 'range' was one of range (due to fule consumption),practicality, cost and time to production?

Of course the outright speeds were possible, as you say orbit alone means you must have made 17000mph.....but consider just how much fuel is used achieving that!

OK - I guess we agree more then Dissagree

Like I said, the SR-71 won out because it was cheaper both in purchase and operation (which were still very high) and in range without being refueled.

I think it is reasonable to believe that the SR-71 - at peak conditions - can probably push it's self to mid/high Mach 4 numbers, and have the ability to hit Mach 4 at will at any altitude it would likely fly at.

Obviously, things like altitude and payload make a difference, but I do not believe that the SR-71 is restricted to a mid Mach 3 speed. I say that based on what I have read, logic, and admitedly a bit of a hunch.

Thought adding a pic at this time might be cool. It is an incredible vehicle.

Originally posted by American Mad Man

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

Originally posted by American Mad Man
I remember Cook saying that the competitor of the Blackbird was revealed to be a Mach 6 125,000+ft spy plane and it lost! I'm not an USAF insider or anything, but if that plane LOST to the blackbird, then the SR-71 must have been able to come at least close to those figures.

- ......or the whole story could be exaggerated guff for young schoolboys and their excitable imaginations.

If the SR71 could have reached such speeds and heights the most likely outcome would have been that they would have been announced (or, as with the SR71 specs we know now, close to them would have been announced).
Prestige would have been the reason why along with the enormous economic strains it would have placed on the USSR to try to counter such a threat and the additional stategy demands countering it would have placed on them.

Dude - the real specs for the SR-71 are still secret to this day. The SR-71 STILL holds every speed record and any time anything comes close they fly one and push the throttle a tad more, beat the other aircraft, and readjust the "max speed".

Prestige? Who cares about that when vital national secrets are concerned? Give me a break! You don't just announce the limits of an aircraft to make the enemy spend money to counter it - just like the F/A-22 is stated at a Mach 1.8 aircraft. Yeah right! The US isn't going to just give away it's aircrafts limits - they give you a low figure, and make the enemy try and figure out what it can do.

I mean, just take a look at a normal fighter - they are generally in the low/mid Mach 2 class. Now look at the Blackbird - clearly a LOT more aerodynamic, and CLEARLY has A LOT more thrust.

Hell, it may not beat them and may have won the comp because of longer range or payload, but any idiot can figure out that what the SR-71 is capable of will not be known untill those capabillities can be matched by weapons and airframes of other nations.

- AMM, come on, stop it.
This is just you guessing and working off a story that you have no clue as to whether it was real or not.

The speed and height race stopped when it did because - then - no matter how quickly or high an aircraft went a radar could always spot it and a missile - or salvo of missiles - could always hit it.....especially when they all got around to the idea of the anti-air mini-nuclear warhead.

Otherwise they'd still be making the damed things.....in large quantity.

This was reported by Nick Cook (aviation editor of Janes defense...Yes, your very own nations best selling military publication) in his book "The Hunt For Zero Point" in which he interviews the chief designer of the Blackbirds competitor aircraft. I think that guy knows better then you or I about what HIS aircraft could do. I am just going off of what HE says - not some BS "source" I have or some cockamamy nut jobs book. This guy is in more of a position to know then any other civillian.

Think about it - the US had the materials to allow a space ship to come back to Earth at Mach 25, so it's not like that was a problem. Thrust really isn't that much of a problem either. As the book said, the problem with the aircraft was mainly cost and range. Thats why the Blackbird beat it out. Most likely the Blackbird isn't a Mach 6 125K ft spyplane like the other one, but it must be some where in that range if it beat it out.

And like I pointed out, just compare the Blackbird to any normal fighter. Are you telling me that with all of that additional thrust and the MUCH more aerodynamic shape that all it can pull is an extra Mach .5? Yeah right.

for the F/A-22, Mach 1.8 is probably not the max speed that it can go to, but it doesn't matter, the max speed will be around mach 2

do u know why, well, all this RAM and paint that you're using to make your planes stealthy, well, the downside of this is that all the attributes of a plane get worse, the maneuverability and the speed, because the RAM gets in the way

this is a common known fact, but I can't explain why, i don't understand how it makes the characteristics of the plane worse

Originally posted by American Mad Man

Originally posted by Dima
the russian spy plane is so secret, the americans don't even know it exists, u fool,s u people, and america in genral obviously didn't know a tiny rats ass on what was going on in the USSR and what has recently been going on in,Russia, several projects have just restarted

oh, and by the way, now that russia has the Adder, boy oh boy, watch out america, it is the best missile in the world, it can go Mach 4, sry, not 4.5 and rip u guys a new one, lol, i luv saying that, but wat do u guys care, u're obviously so caught up in this american propaganda bull# that its impossible to sway u're pathetic views on russian equipment

jus wait, last point, well second last, u know all this new techology crap thats coming out of america, well, i hope that u don't accredit these discoveries to american scientists, lol, u know that after the dissolution of the USSR, 500, 000 scientists emigrated from russia, and most of them came to the US, the US didn't even know they had over 40, 000 scientists, and during the 1990's, america bought so many different technology's from russia,
hahaha, hu's laughing now, so, don't be so proud, for all u know, half the F-22 could have been created by russian scientists

HAHA - worst post ever. The F/A-22 was designed in the 1980's - so no Russian scientists there.

Russian spy plane? Sorry to inform you, but after the USSR broke up it would have leaked. And even if they did have one, they couldn't affoard to fly it now anyways.

500,00 scientists? Show me a link. Even if they didn, it's not like the US doesn''t have it's own scientists. Besides, scientists don't mean that much - the results do. And the US has more results then Russia.

In other words, I'M LAUGHING NOW!!!!!

oh, well the link, i'll try to find it, i think it was on some......................like rianovosti.com or some russian news site, and yo, american scientists pale in comparison to russian scientists, even to this day, even when the education in russia is struggling, they are still producing better scientists, i'm not sure if u were aware, but on rianovosti.com, i think it was 2 months ago, there was a science competition for children aged 14-25 to make something totally revolutionary and amzing

well, in the top 10, there were 7 russian teams, they swept the top 3 gold silver and bronze, then they got 4, 5 and 9 and 10there were two american groups and a french group in the competition

so, u're scientists are useless, well not useless, thats mean, bu aren't as smart or innovative as the russians(u' guys r still pondering cold launch lol)

the F/A-22 wasn't started in 1980, it was started in the mid 80's, but nothing happened there, only the requiremements were set forth, they didn't start building it until i think it was 1988, but by that time, the ussr was already collapsing, so many russian scientists must have fled already, and the scientists could have given the american guys idea's on improvements, and here comes the F/A-22

Originally posted by Dima
for the F/A-22, Mach 1.8 is probably not the max speed that it can go to, but it doesn't matter, the max speed will be around mach 2

We'll see once it has gone the way of the Dino...

do u know why, well, all this RAM and paint that you're using to make your planes stealthy, well, the downside of this is that all the attributes of a plane get worse, the maneuverability and the speed, because the RAM gets in the way

this is a common known fact, but I can't explain why, i don't understand how it makes the characteristics of the plane worse

Actually, the Raptor is one of the most manueverable planes in the world, try again

The trade off with stealth is that there are heat restrictions on some materials, and the shape of the aircraft, when maximised for stealth, often limits the other characteristics of the plane.

Lucky for the US, Lock-mart is so good, they made a stealth fighter one of the most manueverable planes in the world

yea the key word is one of the most maneuverable planes in the world, yes it is, but the Su-47 or the Su-37, i don't know which one, are the most maneuverable in the world, try pulling a Pugachev's cobra on u'rre F/A-22, u're plane will snap in half,

and if u say something about how they do the tricks with 60% fuel in them, i have a good comebak