George Orwell Was A Traitor To The Human Race.

This is a very dynamic back and forth about a capable author who wrote some classic fiction. Wait, no it’s not. It’s a multi-page disagreement between (a select few) people who are not spending enough time looking at what (has and) is actually happening regarding this archetypal fight between the forces of good (capitalism) and bad (communism).

Does anyone know just how close the U.S. was to incorporating communistic policy and legislation just a few decades ago? So many of us walk around thinking that our leaders have been these steadfast keystones for the values of capitalism, when in reality it was a choice made for very shallow and misguided reasons. So many of us walk around bashing communism and socialism for the sake of it, due to mindlessly buying into the American propaganda machine, without really knowing why we vilify these “Reds”. Many of us don't even know the difference between socialism and communism.

I’m not touting the merits of any particular system. I am however, suggesting we all do our homework and extend our reading on the topic a bit further then a few fiction novels. Myself included.

I do fail to see how, because of an ideological difference of opinion, Orwell was a traitor to the human race. Pretty big acusation, no?

Whatever one may think of Orwell, he had a depth of understanding that many still struggle to comprehend today.
One can read his books as novels, history lessons, prophetic, multi-layered thesis, and more. He flushes out the depths of the modern dialectical, the dystopian nightmare, political correctness(newspeak), doublethink, the media, the changing and rearranging of the meanings of words and ideas, the rewriting of history in near real-time, and on and on. 1984 is a reference manual in story format for those who want to understand the world they live in, yesterday, and today.

I don't have to like or dislike George to understand the value in his writings.

I disagree that they were brainwashing propaganda. They are interpretive narrations. A look at possibilities. I for one enjoyed both of them and can see the echoes of many of the things described in our society today. Was that the fault of the people that read them? No, it was the fault of someone who had those types of plans and ideals.

It's all about how you read it and interpret it. 1984 is so close to being reality, it's pretty damn scary. Animal farm has many similarities as well.

They are food for introspective and philosophical thought, nothing else.

Your crazy man, Orwell is great. For him to have the foresight he had for 1984 is amazing. What a great writer and may i say prophet to some extent.

reply to post by GaiusMarius

Animal Farm is infantile. Communism is bad...

Communism isn't bad. Power-hungry tyrants controlling a communistic system is bad. It wasn't the system, it was the men in charge. Just like an axe isn't bad, it's the murderer swinging the axe that's bad.

Critical Thinking 101, people. Learn it, live it, love it. Not communism, I mean. Critical thinking. It's good stuff. Seriously, it's not like every time there's a car accident we say, "Bad car! You evil! Go home!" No, we look to the guy who was OPERATING it.

So why is communism bad, when it was some human that made all the decisions? Communism wouldn't even have existed if someone hadn't invented it. And just like a car or an axe, communism can be made to operate effectively. Hell, the homeless are living a communistic lifestyle and we don't see them complaining, do we? In fact, they actually complain about the false democracy! They LOVE the communistic lifestyle, because the people working in it actually care about their well-being!

I've seen communism first hand. We all have. We just don't recognize it because we think it's supposed to be evil, and we don't see evil. We see necessity in action.

OP, George Orwell was an effing genius. He displayed philosophy and politics of astoundingly deep ingenuity and artistry. As I myself am an artist, and since I can enjoy the subtle nuances and underlying tones and metaphor as another might enjoy a very fine and rare wine, I have nothing but respect for his work and the intellect exhibited through said works. A far better prophet than any I've ever read about in religious texts, certainly. If the man was still alive, I would shake his hand and sweep my hat off to him. Not only was he psychic (not really, but you get my point), he also explained exactly how the government would use our psychology against us. And WHY!!!

Why, as in why it's being done, leads to how leads to what leads to where...where are we going, where are they taking us. George pretty much drew the blueprints. He gave us the answers, so at least we aren't flying blind trying to piece it all together ourselves. He gave us something to work with. That book of his, '1984', is the "red pill". He is Morpheus (from the Matrix movies), in a way. And you wanna demonize him? Good luck with that. He gave me the red pill, and I'm thankful to him for that. Kudos to his soul, and may it rest in peace - even if he did write the instructions for modern-day democracy.

So, ATS...have YOU taken the red pill? Have you read '1984'? Because in my humble opinion, George is not a traitor - never has been. Waking us up from the stupor, showing us what was going to happen, is the most patriotic thing he could have done. He warned the people.

Traitor? Pfft. He's a ****ing hero in my book. He's the Bradley Manning of his generation.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Case-in-point here folks. Someone has done their homework. Star for you.

Argue all you want the author's intention for any work all that matters is what the reader does with it

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by GaiusMarius

 

Wow. Actual debate

You want debate? 1984 was a dire warning against totalitarianism. Stalin's Soviet Union was not socialist, not communist, but totalitarian. Party officials decided what constituted science. (Cf: Lysenko) Orwell believed that totalitarianism is evil; it crushes the human spirit and falsifies truth. Stalin's totalitarian state was evil. Agree? Disagree? Why or why not?

I think the thrust of Orwell is not that he believed totalitarianism to be evil. His thrust is to fool the masses into believing that revolutions are destined to fail no matter what.

Orwell does not what his reader to believe rebellion can achieve anything. He seeks protect captalism.

edit- and in my opinion I think it is hard to define what Stalin had going. He did believe in stageism. Have you heard the term 'stalinist two stage revolution'? You cant change a society overnight. Alot that is written about Stalin is propaganda.

reply to post by GaiusMarius


Sooooooo..........whats the point of this post?
Why exactly do you hate Orwell so much?
Animal farm is a very good satire of Stalin's Russia, are you angry that Mr. Orwell dared to criticize the glorious leader Stalin, who as we all know is just a poor victim who never hurt a fly?

reply to post by GaiusMarius

I think the thrust of Orwell is not that he believed totalitarianism to be evil. His thrust is to fool the masses into believing that revolutions are destined to fail no matter what.

Where did you get that from his writings? I think you may be projecting here. Personally, I believe that the same compassion and humanism that led him to embrace socialism made him recoil from totalitarianism, whether of the right or left.

Orwell does not what his reader to believe rebellion can achieve anything. He seeks protect captalism

Can you provide a quotation from Orwell himself that supports this contention?

edit- and in my opinion I think it is hard to define what Stalin had going. He did believe in stageism. Have you heard the term 'stalinist two stage revolution'? You cant change a society overnight. Alot that is written about Stalin is propaganda.

Too bad he didn't seem interested in getting to stage two before he died in power. As for what Stalin was like, I had family members who died in his purges. I don't need propaganda.

Orwell's message was clear to me. If we let government take over everything, the world will sink to an ebb of intolerable decadence. Winston was a victim, not a paradigm. Orwell gave us examples of what life would be like under an over powered and totally evil regime. We know that a fight to the death is better than succumbing to such a monstrosity. I believe universe is already acting to dissipate the evil that would completely enslave us all but in the meantime, there are incredible lessens that all of us must learn from our downward slide today.

Gaius Marious I love animal farm, and note you haven’t made intellectual criticisms against it. If there’s something specific you criticise then let us know –something useful might be learnt.

If you are a communist then you are worse than a Nazi. Karl Marx is responsible for far more death than Adolf Hitler. And if Animal Farm isn’t a logically correct fable, what do you make of China (which is basically capitalist with a communist oppression system) and North Korea today (which is basically a monarchy, with a both economically & politically communist system).

reply to post by JAK

This is all very interesting. I don't know much about G.O., but I have been learning more about him recently.

I'm am curious as to why the OP was banned? Am I allowed to ask that? I don't see any of his posts deleted?

And With That...

Originally posted by MidnightSunshine
I'm am curious as to why the OP was banned? Am I allowed to ask that? I don't see any of his posts deleted?

While we don't generally discuss details related to account terminations, I will offer that this wasn't the first time, and leave it at that.

Because the OP is no longer available to respond or defend the topic thesis, I am closing this thread, with apologies to all of the other participants. As always, if anyone disagrees with my doing so, please don't hesitate to send me a private message and I'll be happy to talk about it.

Thanks to everyone who contributed thoughtful, intelligent posts to this thread. Again, I'm sorry it didn't work out.