Why Ron Paul (and "Paulism") Can not win: FEMA

First off, don't get me as some breathless hater of all things Paulite. I think many of his ideas are spot on.
But, his stances are just as destructive as they are intriguing...like a mixed bag of nuts, some are delicious, some are near poisonous.

Real world examples destroys his view
Source

Citing the Galveston hurricane in 1900 that obliterated much of the Texas coast, the libertarian-leaning congressman said Americans were able to rebuild their cities and put up a seawall without the federal government's help.

Fantastic Paul, very relevant. The people living with no electricity, no real indoor plumbing, basically living in wood and stone tents are totally equal to todays environment of a digital/info age.
No..its not relevant (sarcasm in case you were unaware). in the year 1900, pre and post hurricane would be not much different..no power lines to sort out, just pick up a few sticks and cut down some trees and your good to go. Times evolve.

This seems to be Paul's biggest disconnect. You cannot compare ways of life from 110 years ago to now and suggest that all things are equal...we progress, society evolves.

Imagine if Paul did win in 08 and there was no FEMA..what would be going on in NYC now in a Paul world?

"I live on the Gulf Coast. We put up with hurricanes all the time," the GOP presidential candidate told CNN after a New Hampshire campaign event Friday. "There's no magic about FEMA. More and more people are starting to recognize that."

Yes, we see why

The agency received wide criticism in 2005 for failing to respond in a timely, organized manner to the vast destruction wrought by Hurricane Katrina.

I think its a managment issue
Hard to have something work properly when the person managing it wants to destroy it..

Anyhow, whats your thoughts on this subject? Is it this (and other areas like this) where Paul's idealism is simply unrealistic in a 21st century setting (or even a mid/late 20th century)? Should it truely be a situation where entire states are allowed to fail and have epic humanitarian disasters without intervention?

Should the union be...unified?

We dont need no stinkin FEMA.

In the Galveston Hurricane as today, our workers are capable of rebuilding damn near anything. Also, the army corp of engineers is usually called in for emergency national construction projects, and local affairs and building are administrated localy. Whether in Texas or NYC.

Originally posted by dashen
We dont need no stinkin FEMA.

In the Galveston Hurricane as today, our workers are capable of rebuilding damn near anything. Also, the army corp of engineers is usually called in for emergency national construction projects, and local affairs and building are administrated localy. Whether in Texas or NYC.

edit on 31-10-2012 by dashen because: (no reason given)

So you think its the militarys responsibility to become disaster relief?

Whats the difference anyhow, you suggest the federal emergency managment should be replaced with...a federal organization (acoe).

so..same thing, but with less training on other stuff needed for disasters.

Anyhow, go tell people in Florida, New Orleans, and currently New York how they don't need FEMA.

reply to post by SaturnFX


What does FEMA do when there are no disasters? The army and national guard working with the red cross, I had thought were responsible for most emergency relief efforts in the past century. An extra extra extra Federal Alphabet monster is not as necessary as training and utilizing available resources.

Pesky libertarianism ... riddled with faith in humanity

He already lost the nomination. Why isolate this one issue and quote mine Paul? Seems redundant. The abominable creature is alive and well. Unlikely that any other independent thinker will challenge FEMA ... Obamney certainly won't.

It really comes down to how the framers of our Constitution defined the role of Gov't. Is FEMA within the purvey of our nat'l gov't? I think that's a question worth asking.

Why does it exist at all?

It isnt my neighbors responsibility to rebuild my house should it collapse.

So why is it another states responsibility to rebuild some other city should it collapse?

People act like the government is your mommy and daddy there to help you out when # happens or lend you a few bucks when you need it.

That'd be fine if mommy and daddy werent robbing every house on the block to lend you that cash.

In this case mommy and daddy are Bonnie and Clyde.

Get rid of all the crutches and safety nets. Mankind will never step up otherwise and we'll all wallow in this luke warm state of disaffection.

For all the "forward" talk government proponents have been doing lately they seem awfully fond of societal retardation.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Hi Saturn

I don't usually enter into this forum as I'm not in your country. I just hope that those families with kids whom are effected by Sandy are looked after - politics needs to take a back seat whilst everyone concentrates on making sure the children and those less fortunate and whom were effected are OK.

Regarding the FEMA camps......well the devil is most likely in the details and I'm sure their true purpose will become apparent in the not too distant future.

Ron Paul has some good ideas and I do appreciate what he has to say. Personally I think he's a straight shooter in comparison to Obama and R-Money...........which brings me to the reason I have responded.

OFF TOPIC - try this on for size - its crisper and is sized to suit Avatars (170 x 240 pixels)
(I prefer your old one better though )

Originally posted by Sublimecraft
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Hi Saturn

I don't usually enter into this forum as I'm not in your country. I just hope that those families with kids whom are effected by Sandy are looked after - politics needs to take a back seat whilst everyone concentrates on making sure the children and those less fortunate and whom were effected are OK.

Hard to say put politics aside when part of the political discourse is..should there be an emergency response system. it sort of directly effects such times, and only thought about when it happens. When its approprate to discuss such things, is usually when nobody is considering a disaster, in which times people forget the need for such things.

Regarding the FEMA camps......well the devil is most likely in the details and I'm sure their true purpose will become apparent in the not too distant future.

They aren't camps..its stations, some roving bands of workers, etc..the fema camp thing is temporary shelters in truely disasterous areas, but its not like fema sets up cities...hard to understand when being overseas overall. mostly their jobs are to drop trailers off to people whom lost their home so they have somewhere to go to fight with insurance companies with, make sure people get food/water/etc.

Ron Paul has some good ideas and I do appreciate what he has to say. Personally I think he's a straight shooter in comparison to Obama and R-Money...........which brings me to the reason I have responded.

He is a straight shooter. I have no doubt in the mans integrety..but just because you truely believe in a bad idea, doesn't make it a good idea. This is one of the areas where his ideas are bad..not all..hell, as I said, I agree with many of his stances.. Its just, his negatives really outshine some of his positives.

OFF TOPIC - try this on for size - its crisper and is sized to suit Avatars (170 x 240 pixels)
(I prefer your old one better though

)

edit on 31-10-2012 by Sublimecraft because: spelling / grammar

Ya, just tossed this up for a few days out of amusement..Legion will come back in a few days.

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
Why does it exist at all?

It isnt my neighbors responsibility to rebuild my house should it collapse.

So why is it another states responsibility to rebuild some other city should it collapse?

People act like the government is your mommy and daddy there to help you out when # happens or lend you a few bucks when you need it.

Government is our servant.
We supply them with money collectively, and in turn, they organize our tax dollars for support in areas that are simply too big for us to deal with individually.
This is the whole concept of government..to achieve order that a group of individuals cannot achieve.

So, no..its not your responsibility to rebuild your house...nor is it FEMAs..thats not what they do.
It is the insurance company to sort this out though..and it could take months before the insurance company even starts looking at your claim...

You know what would happen to a city if after a disaster, no help came for months?

There is a reason why things are created..its not like one day a politician thought "how can we spend more tax dollars on nothing we need..hmm..."

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Government is our servant.
We supply them with money collectively, and in turn, they organize our tax dollars for support in areas that are simply too big for us to deal with individually.
This is the whole concept of government..to achieve order that a group of individuals cannot achieve.

A servant I cant fire.
I dont supply anything. They just take.
Can we not achieve that order? Did I try and fail at some point?

You know what would happen to a city if after a disaster, no help came for months?

Do you? I imagine you have a bunch of guesses and ideas but do you know? Does anyone? Has there ever been a city in a disaster free from outside corruptors left to resolve itself?

There is a reason why things are created..its not like one day a politician thought "how can we spend more tax dollars on nothing we need..hmm..."

Whatever the reason is it can be reduced to money and control. Good intentions paving certain roads and all.

If any of this was righteous or just it would be based in voluntarism and not authoritarianism.

That right there is a red flag that somethign is wrong.

I have a huge problem when our gov't spends more on the Defense Dept. than anything else
FEMA is a disaster because the gov't can't run anything efficiently.

But I am all for helping those that need help!
Especially seeing as that's why we give the gov't our money.
Of course they never use the majority of it for what we need...just what they need.
I digress...
It's the rising cost of everything that should have people scared silly.
Inflation is going to bring this country to its knees if we don't do something about it.
That makes the cost of fixing everything astronomical.
When in reality, it's all the same materials.

So, FEMA is a terrible idea, brought to you by you friendly CONgress.
Do I support it? Hell no! People need to take care of themselves.
Elderly aside, maybe instead of buying all this new technology they could buy a generator.
Or maybe instead of that new iPhone they could stock their pantry with food.
Priorities need to be re-aligned with this country immediately.

This gov't is not looking out for our best interest.
They can't solve a budget deficit to save their lives and I'm going to wait for their help?


I don't think so.

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Government is our servant.
We supply them with money collectively, and in turn, they organize our tax dollars for support in areas that are simply too big for us to deal with individually.
This is the whole concept of government..to achieve order that a group of individuals cannot achieve.

A servant I cant fire.
I dont supply anything. They just take.
Can we not achieve that order? Did I try and fail at some point?

Elections are where you have the opportunity to fire people
And no...we cannot without rule, it has been tried since the dawning of mankind..and whenever there is true freedom, shortly after that, there is self imposed dictators.
There is a reason we have government...even wolves have pack masters.

You know what would happen to a city if after a disaster, no help came for months?

Do you? I imagine you have a bunch of guesses and ideas but do you know? Does anyone? Has there ever been a city in a disaster free from outside corruptors left to resolve itself?

Katrina was a slow response time, we seen what happened from lax movements.
This isn't something that was never tested.
Microlevel it. If you have a fire, what happens if big brother fire department doesn't come help out?

There is a reason why things are created..its not like one day a politician thought "how can we spend more tax dollars on nothing we need..hmm..."

Whatever the reason is it can be reduced to money and control. Good intentions paving certain roads and all.

If any of this was righteous or just it would be based in voluntarism and not authoritarianism.

That right there is a red flag that somethign is wrong.

The thing is, people generally aren't rightous in enough quantities to make a difference, else we would never need things like food stamps, social security, etc etc etc...all of which were responses from actual issues going on that needed some solution.

Your red flag is called human disposition...we will pretend to shed a tear, and then go on about life verses take a bus down to the affected areas with crates of water, food, blankets, and a hammer to help rebuild. Some will help, but most won't.

Your viewpoint is exactly the same as communism in the way that it sounds good philosophically, but it doesn't work in reality. tried and tested.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
First off, don't get me as some breathless hater of all things Paulite. I think many of his ideas are spot on.
But, his stances are just as destructive as they are intriguing...like a mixed bag of nuts, some are delicious, some are near poisonous.

Real world examples destroys his view
Source

Citing the Galveston hurricane in 1900 that obliterated much of the Texas coast, the libertarian-leaning congressman said Americans were able to rebuild their cities and put up a seawall without the federal government's help.

Fantastic Paul, very relevant. The people living with no electricity, no real indoor plumbing, basically living in wood and stone tents are totally equal to todays environment of a digital/info age.
No..its not relevant (sarcasm in case you were unaware). in the year 1900, pre and post hurricane would be not much different..no power lines to sort out, just pick up a few sticks and cut down some trees and your good to go. Times evolve.

This seems to be Paul's biggest disconnect. You cannot compare ways of life from 110 years ago to now and suggest that all things are equal...we progress, society evolves.

Imagine if Paul did win in 08 and there was no FEMA..what would be going on in NYC now in a Paul world?

"I live on the Gulf Coast. We put up with hurricanes all the time," the GOP presidential candidate told CNN after a New Hampshire campaign event Friday. "There's no magic about FEMA. More and more people are starting to recognize that."

Yes, we see why

The agency received wide criticism in 2005 for failing to respond in a timely, organized manner to the vast destruction wrought by Hurricane Katrina.

I think its a managment issue
Hard to have something work properly when the person managing it wants to destroy it..

Anyhow, whats your thoughts on this subject? Is it this (and other areas like this) where Paul's idealism is simply unrealistic in a 21st century setting (or even a mid/late 20th century)? Should it truely be a situation where entire states are allowed to fail and have epic humanitarian disasters without intervention?

Should the union be...unified?

edit on 31-10-2012 by SaturnFX because: sourced

I am never voting for a Republican or a democrat.