London MEGA Mosque o_O

Originally posted by TheMaverick
reply to post by InhaleExhale

 

I gladly take you on, in a discussion about sharīʿah, which translates as law because you clearly didn't know, as you put.

Sharia law?

What would you like to dispute with me, the religious political socially oppressive sharīʿah interpretation preached by the radicals who want to build this mosque, or a moderate interpretation of sharīʿah ?

Has ATS gone completely senile,

First of all, I was asking the OP questions, if you re read them please tell me how I could be any more clear in asking a question.

Second I wish to dispute nothing with you as I was asking Sinny the OP for their opinion by asking those question I did

Thirdly please dont assume to know what I know or dont know as it seems you cant read, I quoted what I want to reply to which was the OP saying

Sharia Law worries me.

So I asked if other laws worry them as well, you know the democratic type of laws that change at the will of those with the most influence over society.

It really is funny how you take half verses and you interpret them the way you want. Now, the thing about fighting till they pay taxes is not a teaching . it is an order from god to the Muslims during a period of time. where they were fighting. and the nonbelievers, refused to pay taxes, and didn't want to leave. Don't you pay taxes? what happens if you don't pay taxes? what happened back in their time when people didn't pay taxes to the rulers.? Exactly. Quran doesn't just contain "TEACHINGS". whenever you see something you think its a teaching. it contains history and science . Why don't you look for the verses interpretation from the MAIN SOURCE, Muslims themselves.not look up people in forums who are attacking Muslims and using the same verses with the same argument. not knowing anything.
. Most of the time the verse is related to the verses around it, could be a history story , or something scientific, or a guide, You take a portion of it and interpret it the way you want.

[2:190]You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.

[2:192]If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

[8:61] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the? Hearer, the Omniscient.

[4:90] ... if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them.

Nowhere in the Quran can be found support for indiscriminate slaughter, the killing of non-combatants, or murder of innocent persons in 'payback' for another people's alleged crimes.

The Islamic teachings on this subject can be summed up in the following verses (Quran 60:7-8):

"It may be that God will grant love (and friendship) between you and those whom ye (now) hold as enemies. For God has power (over all things), and God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

God does not forbid you, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loves those who are just."

Religions establish Morals values and dignity. which we are lacking a lot of in today's society.
So you like how the people that don't believe in religions live ?.. Drunk , no limits in life , no fear of doing bad things , the truth is that without religion people would kill each other more , ignorant age proves that , that's why we need something to guide us , to live the right way , peacefully and don't do bad things we regret it or destroy our lifes or even others. People say those who are religious are just afraid of DEATH. That is wrong. Those who run away from religion are the ones with fear. Fear of believing that they will be judged, because they know it's not going to work out for them
, fear of living with moral that will make society much better, and peaceful place.

What really must die is the hate , if we all accepted each other believes we wont have any kind of fight , each to his own believe , then god or nature judge us for what we choose.

About the topic, I don't see anything wrong with building any kind of religious place. I don't know about the laws in UK. but if you are free to practice any religion then nobody has the right to argue against building a religious place. I see Islamophobia everywhere. If you fear societies like in Afghanistan and these countries. You lack knowledge. Do NOT mix RELIGION with CULTURE.

reply to post by TheMaverick


You have a zone that militant factions control? No guns,cameras everywhere, I fear for the commonwealth even more now.

This thread is another baffling example of normally anti-religion "progressives", defending religion when it's Islam. Can anyone please explain this inconsistency to me?

Originally posted by PvtHudson
This thread is another baffling example of normally anti-religion "progressives", defending religion when it's Islam. Can anyone please explain this inconsistency to me?

They'll chop your head off if you piss them off?

Originally posted by 0SolidSnake0
. Most of the time the verse is related to the verses around it, could be a history story , or something scientific, or a guide, You take a portion of it and interpret it the way you want.

[2:190]You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.

[2:192]If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

[8:61] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the? Hearer, the Omniscient.

[4:90] ... if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them.

Nowhere in the Quran can be found support for indiscriminate slaughter, the killing of non-combatants, or murder of innocent persons in 'payback' for another people's alleged crimes.

You seemed to miss out 2:191, let me get that for you:

And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

Source

And then from 8:61 if you continue reading to 8:65

O Prophet, urge the believers to battle. If there are among you twenty [who are] steadfast, they will overcome two hundred. And if there are among you one hundred [who are] steadfast, they will overcome a thousand of those who have disbelieved because they are a people who do not understand.

Source

So if being urged to battle and being ordered to kill people where you take them over is not support for this slaughter you speak of, then, what are these passages saying?

reply to post by cavtrooper7

You have a zone that militant factions control?

Err, no we don't - don't know what gave you that idea?
There are a couple of area's where extremists have expressed their wish to impose Sharia, and they have been told in no uncertain terms that it isn't going to happen - ever.

Surely at your age you have learnt that wanting something and getting something are two completely different things?

No guns,

Thankfully.

cameras everywhere,

Yeah, there's too many of them but the vast majority are used as surveillance on private and business properties.

I fear for the commonwealth even more now.

Why?

People in glass houses my friend.

Originally posted by 0SolidSnake0
It really is funny how you take half verses and you interpret them the way you want.

What really must die is the hate , if we all accepted each other believes we wont have any kind of fight , each to his own believe , then god or nature judge us for what we choose.

I see Islamophobia everywhere.

The old Islamophobia card?

Strange that there is no Chritianaphobia, Hinduphobia, Sikhophobia or Buddhistphobia?

Could the difference be Islam itself?

Historians estimate that about 270 million people have been killed by Jihad since Islam came onto this earth.

• 120 million Africans

• 60 million Christians

• 80 million Hindus

• 10 million Buddhists

Link

270 million dead from Islam's violent expansion and you try to play the Islamophobia card?

reply to post by ollncasino


Haha...hilarious...you do realise that those figures include the Transatlantic Slave Trade? Can the Arabs be blamed for the fact that they sold people, according to customs that transcend religious beliefs, to people with no regard for human life that wasn't white and Christian?

I think that you will find that Christians, in the name of Christianity killed just as many, if not more.

Look at it this way, Christianity started in roughly the first century CE, Islam about five hundred years later...so, in short, culturally, they are about 500 years behind Christian 'culture'...now, look at what Christianity was up to 500 years ago. All things considered, especially taking into account the fact that the Inquisition wasn't repealed until about 1840, Islam isn't doing so bad, culturally, in catching up.

What goes around, comes around

The old Islamophobia card?
Thats is the term everyone uses. I didn't create it. Just like now they use the term " homophobia" . apperently everything can have a phobia.

Could the difference be Islam itself? thats why the real owners of this country and the shadow governments and mainstream media Keep feeding you bull# about islam and spreading lies about it all over the place.

These numbers are nothing. (the slave thing is ridiculous) whenever you see a muslim in a war you slap the word "jihad" in it. These deaths (if they were true, most likely not) are results of war, all kind of wars . no "jihad" crap.
"JIHAD" mean the suffer for god. it could be any kind of suffering. like refusing to sin while everybody around you is sinning. the war aspect of "jihad" is defend your religion when it is being attacked . Specially back then, when nations used to attack them just for being "muslims" and spreading the message of believing in one god , which went against the benefits of the rulers of these other nations.

Of course you will get your info from some anti-islam website. that tells you lies and lies and lies of what islam is about instead of getting it from the MAIN SOURCE.
Muslims ran the slave trade ? Here we go again. Slavery is forbidden in islam whether the salve is white or black or devil worshiper. SLAVERY IS FORBIDDEN. PERIOD . Any slave trader cannot be muslim even if thats why he like to call himself. Same goes for a lot of others .I don't know if some slave owner was supposed to be "muslim", and if that's the case then he obviously isn't. If someone has an arabic name, that doesn't mean he is muslim. If someone was born muslims, or calls himself muslim that doesn't mean he is muslim . If you don't follow what islam teach you then you are not a muslim .. . The hindu and muslims conflict has been going on for ages, in countries. Nothing "jihad" B.s . like the mainstream media like to brainwash your heads with. Have you even bothered to look at how many muslims died because of the hindus-muslims, and buddhiest-muslims conflict. dhimmis is applied to all non-muslims, even if they were nonbelievers. dhimmis does not mean "islam servant " or second class citizen or any of this crap they tell you. dhimmis had their rights fully protected in their communities, but as citizens in the Islamic state, had certain restrictions.They were excused or excluded from specific duties assigned to Muslims, and otherwise equal under the laws of property, contract and obligation.

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by 0SolidSnake0
It really is funny how you take half verses and you interpret them the way you want.

What really must die is the hate , if we all accepted each other believes we wont have any kind of fight , each to his own believe , then god or nature judge us for what we choose.

I see Islamophobia everywhere.

The old Islamophobia card?

Strange that there is no Chritianaphobia, Hinduphobia, Sikhophobia or Buddhistphobia?

Could the difference be Islam itself?

edit on 1-11-2012 by ollncasino because: (no reason given)

Who started the first world war ? Muslims ??
Who started the second world war ? Muslims ??
Who killed about 20 millions of Aborigines in Australia ? Muslims ??
Who sent the nuclear bombs of Hiroshima and Nagasaki ? Muslims ??
Who killed more than 100 millions of Indians in North America ? Muslims ??
Who killed more than 50 millions of Indians in south America ? Muslims ??
Who took about 180 millions of African people as slaves and 88% of them died and was thrown in Atlantic ocean ? Muslims ??
No , They weren't Muslims!!! First of all, You have to define terrorism properly... If a non-Muslim do something bad..it is crime. But if a so called "Muslim" commit same..he is terrorist..
So first remove this double standard then come to the point !!

I don't see anything wrong with verses you stated. Again QURAN is NOT Just society TEACHING its History. Again you gave me a verse and ignored the others. A PORTION of the full story.
the full story in 4 verses :
2:190-194 Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And kill them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for persecution and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, kill them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith. But if they cease, God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. The prohibited month, for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited, there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. But fear (the punishment of) God, and know that God is with those who restrain themselves.

Maybe if you stop looking threads and sites that spread lies, the hate against Muslims. and try to verify what they say, then you'll know the meaning This is an explanation: islamnewsroom.com...
It has explanations for many other verses usually used by people who lack knowledge and just want to spread hate.

Again i don't see support for indiscriminate slaughter, the killing of non-combatants, or murder of innocent persons in 'payback' for another people's alleged crimes.And im not saying that because im just defending "islam" Im saying it because It Doesn't EXIST.

reply to post by 0SolidSnake0


Perhaps you should tell the Muslims using white British kids as sex slaves that they can't call themselves Muslim.

reply to post by 0SolidSnake0


So, in trying to not take things out of context, after reading 9:1-18 (as it seems to me that after that the context changes) the following:

And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

9:5

I wonder, how does that not support slaughter?

Originally posted by glen200376
reply to post by 0SolidSnake0

 

Perhaps you should tell the Muslims using white British kids as sex slaves that they can't call themselves Muslim.

Ridiculous argument. A gang of men, who happen to be Muslim, grooming 'kids' to enter prostitution in no way negates the fact that the majority of sex traders are non-Muslim or the fact that the majority of Muslims would be appalled by those people's behaviour.

However, of course they are Muslims in name only. Just as the many 'Christians' who partake and profit in the sex trade are not true Christians. Someone is not a good Christian or a good Muslim because they attach that label to themselves, it is their actions that demonstrate the point. The proof, as in all things, is in the pudding.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout



23:5

And they who guard their private parts

23:6

Except from their wives or those their right hands possess, for indeed, they will not be blamed -

23:5-6

It does say that you can have sex with your wife and your slaves, though...

I see Islamophobia everywhere.

What really must die is the hate , if we all accepted each other believes we wont have any kind of fight , each to his own believe , then god or nature judge us for what we choose.

Perhaps you explain to us why since 9/11 Muslims in the USA have tried to

• Destroy the Brooklyn bridge

• Blow up an Ohio shopping mall

• Blow up the New York stock exchange

• Blow up the NY subway

• Blow up an Indian diplomat with a shoulder fired grenade launcher

• Blow up National Guard facilities and synagogues in the LA area

• Blow up the Wyoming natural gas refinery & the Transcontinental Pipeline

• Set off a dirty bomb in the USA

• Blow up the US Capitol and Word Bank Headquarters

• Blow up the Sears tower in Chicago

• Blow up NY city train tunnels

• Set off hand grenades in a shopping mall outside Chicago

• Conspiring to attack Fort Dix, New Jersey

• Set off a TAPT bomb in the NY subway

• Blow up a Dallas skyscraper

• Set off a car bomb outside the courthouse in downtown Springfield, Illinois

• Murder civilians in US shopping malls

• Blow up “aviation fuel tanks and pipelines at the John F. Kennedy International Airport”

• Shoot down planes with stinger missiles.

creepingsharia.wordpress.com...

If Islam is a religion of peace, why does it produce so many violent terrorists?

Originally posted by NoMatterNeverMind
reply to post by 0SolidSnake0

 

So, in trying to not take things out of context, after reading 9:1-18 (as it seems to me that after that the context changes) the following:

And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

9:5

I wonder, how does that not support slaughter?

The world has changed a lot in the past 1500 years since that was supposedly written, just as a lot has changed since the Old Testament was written, if you look hard enough at any text of influence you will find excerpts that are highly dubious in nature. The Arab tribes were a violent bunch, amongst themselves, Mohammed united them against a common enemy and made them a force to be reckoned with. Nothing that hadn't been done before, or since, by others, they were merely following the lead of those examples. Those beliefs are now being used in the same way as the Christians and the Jews used theirs before them. What is unusual about that? Just because it has taken a few centuries for the pay-back to reach us, doesn't make it any less karmic. Remember after 9/11 when George Bush publicly announced a 'crusade' against the middle-east? Do you not think that that may have upset a few apple carts and that his advisors were as dumb as he was when they let him say that #?

Originally posted by NoMatterNeverMind
reply to post by KilgoreTrout

 

23:5

And they who guard their private parts

23:6

Except from their wives or those their right hands possess, for indeed, they will not be blamed -

23:5-6

It does say that you can have sex with your wife and your slaves, though...

Hahaha...mate, it is written in English law that the Lord of the manor could have sex with any maiden prior to the consummation of her marriage...just as it was written into Roman law that a man had the right to kill his own children. Just because things are written in books does not make them law or enforceable. Things change. Laws change. Laws can and have been, repeatedly, overturned. Slavery is illegal...internationally now...in case you haven't noticed...so no worry there. Nor is everyone forced to marry before they have sexual intercourse.

Progress makes it's way through the #e eventually given the impetus of dissent.

Originally posted by 0SolidSnake0

Who started the first world war ? Muslims ??
Who started the second world war ? Muslims ??

Who had Muslim SS divisions in WWII?




Himmler thought they were great soldiers. Believing that they would go straight to heaven if killed in jihad meant they were fearless soldiers.