Scientists offer quantum theory of soul's existence

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posted on Nov, 1 2012 @ 04:38 AM
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Originally posted by lucid eyes

Only liberals need "scientific proof" of what is obvious to the rest of us.

Please leave me out of your "us". As I said earlier, my beautiful has brain damage from a car accident so is her "soul" or consciousness damaged? And those individuals who have had one hemisphere removed, do they now only have half a "soul" of only half conscious? So imo, how can such clever people still be so emotionally primitive as to need to invent this undetectable, unprovable "soul" Again, my opinion, I reckon that people are using the complexities of quantum physics to make excuses for the lack of proof of this "soul"




posted on Nov, 1 2012 @ 08:21 AM
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Originally posted by Dark Ghost

Scientists offer quantum theory of soul's existence


www.news.com.au

A PAIR of world-renowned quantum scientists say they can prove the existence of the soul.
.



edit on 31/10/2012 by Dark Ghost because: formatting


They offered no proof. So, can they prove it or not? Are they holding back the proof until we cough up some money?




posted on Nov, 1 2012 @ 08:40 AM
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Originally posted by Just Chris

"experience of consciousness is the result of quantum gravity effects inside these microtubules" I thought microtubules were found in all cells of the human body. The sperm cell is pretty much a head with a nucleus, and a long microtubule tail. Plant cells also have microtubules. Does the quantum theory of conciousness apply to these cells as well or only cells found in the brain? How about the brain of a mouse? It's an interesting hypothesis but this news article doesn't give much. Peer review study please~"

Ryan is right in my opinion. The Quantum theory must therefore apply to all kinds of life from mice to plants.


Agreed; a peer review study, maybe if others can replicate it and achieve the same results; that would be interesting. If this person is correct (about microtubules being found in all cells of the human body) perhaps it suggests that the souls home is not in just in the mind, but rather, the entire body?



posted on Nov, 1 2012 @ 09:51 AM
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reply to post by MasonicFantom
 


Same here. Honestly it's only common sense, although I can't imagine why they restricted it to the human brain. That's just arrogance right there. Comes dangerously close to discrediting the whole thing.

Quantum gravity is the only place to look. Question is, will we understand and be able to interpret what we're looking at? And will we know if we're wrong?



posted on Nov, 1 2012 @ 10:13 AM
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Originally posted by ubeenhad
reply to post by Vandettas
 


An easy example is the computer screen your looking at.
www.ehow.com...

Quick hints. Look for the word polarized.
Now check out los almos's quantum institute has to say.
www.lanl.gov...



You're first link shows nothing except how a computer works. It has nothing to do with Quantum machanics.

We know how polarized light works, whats you're point?




And yes, thats all QM does is make predictions!


Not really.



posted on Nov, 1 2012 @ 10:17 AM
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reply to post by Dark Ghost
 


I have always believed this, great to see proof!
S & F



posted on Nov, 1 2012 @ 10:44 AM
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reply to post by Dark Ghost
 

I read this with a grain of salt, but...

Was reading about QM the other day. There's also QFT (quantum field theory). Basically, Quantum Entanglement either breaks the principle of locality or it breaks the principle of realism. Locality means that there're quasi-enclosed areas in the universe. It means that there's distance between things and that any affect on an object in the universe will originate in its local surroundings. Einstein said that if the principle of locality were proven false then it would be impossible for science to construct empirical theories to explain things that occur in nature. I think he said this not because it's "impossible" but because it's made extremely difficult to pinpoint exactly how something in the universe is behaving if it's interacting with ill-defined non-local things in the universe. Realism, on the other hand, is just another word for determinism or quasi-determinism. This should not be confused with superdeterminism. Realism just means that, for most things, we can deduce/calculate/estimate what we will measure before we measure them and be consistent about it. It means that we can say that information is pre-existing before we execute a measurement. This is common sense and the math tells us that things pre-exist. However, how can things pre-exist in a quantum Field? As far as I understand it, a quantum field is a probability, not a certainty. It's not something we can touch.

Thing is, no matter how I think about it, quantum entanglement seems to make it very difficult for us to understand the universe. On the one hand, it destroys realism. On the other, it destroys locality. We know that one or the other or both do not hold according to the latest research. Based on what I've read, it either makes it very difficult for us to create empirical theory or it makes it pointless. Without realism, things don't pre-exist and it's virtually impossible to predict the future. Without locality, physical phenomena or our measurements could be tied to non-local interaction that greatly complicates the task to understand it. It's hard to understand EVERYTHING, see?

I agree with the person who suggested that microtubules exist in plants/animals/etc and so this means that if humans have a soul then everything else has a soul too. This really should also put into question the whole idea that we even have a soul. Maybe it's just reabsorbed int othe quantum field just as our body is reabsorbed into the earth. This doesn't means our memories are preserved.

I also think that since everything is ultimately a result of these quantum fields that we're a long ways from understanding it. I have to wonder what quantum really means. All around us in our classical universe we see a form of determinism. We intuitively understand causality. We know that if we throw a ball up into the air that it will come back down. Yet, all of these discrete deterministic things come from something that doesn't want to be neatly defined. Perhaps it's just the limits of our ability to observe it, and not the true nature of it. Maybe one day we define it more clearly. I tink when something is on the edge of our ability to observe it, we need to be cautious about certainty.
edit on 1-11-2012 by jonnywhite because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 1 2012 @ 11:02 AM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
I can hear atheists all over the world screaming NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

Why would an atheist be upset about proof of life after death? It's not like atheists wish to be totally extinguished at the time of death. It's not like atheists don't wish to live on beyond the physical body.
All it is really is logical thinking, not wishing against something that if real would be truly awesome.
For what purpose would the Universe bestow upon us an everlasting soul?
It has no reason to.

On another note, this is just a theory and it is proof of nothing, until then I will be skeptical.



posted on Nov, 1 2012 @ 11:04 AM
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L
L
here we go again:

"consciousness is in the brain,
the brain is a computer,
the soul is within the body, and
all is matter in motion"


sigh


there is no matter, and no atoms, only waves and motion all around,
the brain is not a computer; it is a receiver/response-tool keyed to whatever your senses/perceptions display, consciousness does not reside in the brain,
the body is within the soul, and everything has a soul
Video: Animism 101 or the Magical Nature of the Soul OF Things.avi

www.dropbox.com...


From the standpoint of the popular rational materialism which dominates the nihilist phase., it may appear absurd that the philosophy of magic will arise first to complement and then surpass that of science and materialism However the most advanced scientific theories are already beginning to exhibit magical features in their new descriptions of reality. Both in particle physics and cosmogenesis a fundamental acausality, indeterminacy, and observer dependence is now ascribed to reality. These are, property speaking, magical theories, not material ones. It also appears that in biology. psychology and medicine, theories of strict causality must give ground to some form of emergent vitalism for organisms which are evidently more than the sum of their parts. This co-emergent vital principle or morphic field is equivalent to the intrinsic power or mana of magical theory.
The prevailing orthodoxy of the coming Chaoist age will represent something of a truce between magic and science; although the magical aspects may take on heavy scientific camouflage at first to make them more acceptable. Transcendental theories will virtually disappear and magical phenomena will no longer be acknowledged as proof of anything spiritual. The word “God “ will be both objectively and subjectively meaningless except to a few cliques and cranks; although towards the end of the Pandemonaeon new forms of magical transcendentalism will arise, but it would be premature to speculate on their precise manifestation. The model does not predict the nature of the characteristic post-industrial technology of the impending aeon. The decline of materialistic theories throughout the aeon does not in itself imply the loss of advanced technology. As technology becomes progressively more complex and less comprehensible there is a tendency to conceive of it and use it as though it were a magical phenomenon. Devices incorporating quantum mechanical or direct psi-interactive components may well make any distinction between magical and material systems meaningless in any case. So the impending Pandemonaeon may be characterized by an extremely complex yet rationally incomprehensible high technology. Alternatively the model will equally well accommodate a post-catastrophe technology sufficient to support a new hunter-gatherer tribalized society
resembling the first shamanic aeon when the relative strengths of the paradigms were similar. At the time of writing it is too early to speculate on the character of the second phase of the Pandemonaeon, which has been left nameless. It remains to be seen whether humanity will spend this phase out amongst the stars or squabbling over tinned food in the smoking ruins. Yet any credible form of stellar travel will have to be based on principles more akin to those currently under investigation in magic than in science. Some form of machine-enhanced teleportation might suffice, reaction-thrust vehicles plainly will not.
***
Dangerous times lie ahead. Millennial apocalyptic beliefs present in monotheism may still yet
trigger disaster during the death spasms of transcendentalism. A fierce rearguard action may be expected from materialist philosophies as they slide further into a nihilism whose adherents will, for a while, demand ever more of what is not working . ever more luxury and sensationalism in an ecology unable to support it.
The birth of the Pandemonaeon as a generally accepted paradigm could be a long and bloody business. If things go badly it could be preceded by a catastrophe which precipitates us into a new stone age rather than an interstellar age. Although there will be important niches for magicians in either situation, I would prefer my descendants to perform their sorceries among the stars rather than huddled in the ruins.

excerpted from Peter Carroll's Liber Kaos chapter 2 Aeonics [The Psychohistorical Model of History]
edit on 1-11-2012 by DerepentLEstranger because: added edit and comment



posted on Nov, 1 2012 @ 12:03 PM
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Originally posted by NewAgeMan




From the thread

The God Theory



posted on Nov, 1 2012 @ 12:21 PM
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reply to post by Vandettas
 


If you know what polarization is then you know a quantum effect! Your so smart! My nephew sometimes knows what he is seeing is a firetruck, but he forgets what to call it sometimes. Maybe you got the same issue.

And the e-how link contains all the info you need to explain why your computer screen is full of quantum mechanics. If you want you could just google cathode ray as well, if you got an older TV. That will give you a nice explanation of how electrons were discovered.

Your confusing abstract quantum phenomenon like non-locailty and decoherence, with less abstract. Its all quantum mechanics, if its not classical mechanics, and its not relativistic. It must be quantum.
edit on 1-11-2012 by ubeenhad because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 1 2012 @ 02:14 PM
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reply to post by Dark Ghost
 


Oh no, Hameroff again??

This guy will be the end of quantum physics—and he's only an anesthesiologist.

Him and Penrose are the same fellows who brought about the whole idea of quantum woo

edit on 1-11-2012 by LesMisanthrope because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 1 2012 @ 02:29 PM
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reply to post by Dark Ghost
 


So dogs and cats have these as well?

These micro tubules that reside in our brain cells; not much once all the cells die.



posted on Nov, 1 2012 @ 03:32 PM
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Originally posted by Raelsatu

Not "people are afraid of dying, period", as if consciousness/life is that simple. This is a THEORY, and one based on a reasonably sound approach -- not religious dogma.


See, this is where you err. It is dogma.


“This - the evolution of man into superman - was always the purpose of the ancient Mysteries, and the real purpose of modern Masonry is not the social and charitable purposes to which so much attention is paid, but the expediting of the spiritual evolution of those who aspire to perfect their own nature and transform it into a more god-like quality. And this is a definite science, a royal art, which it is possible for each of us to put into practice; whilst to join the Craft for any other purpose than to study and pursue this science is to misunderstand its meaning.”

“Man who has sprung from earth and developed through the lower kingdoms of nature to his present rational state, has yet to complete his evolution by becoming a god-like being and unifying his consciousness with the Omniscient - to promote which is and always has been the sole aim and purpose of all Initiation.”
W.L Wilmhurst, "The Meaning of Masonry"



Hameroff in a recent interview:
Question: Let’s see if I’ve got the gist of your theory straight. Essentially, you’re saying that at least some basic degree of consciousness is woven into the fabric of spacetime itself, and it’s the coherent quantum activity among the microtubules in our brain that allows us to amplify or strengthen the basic universal consciousness that’s already there?
Hameroff: Yes. Or simply to gain access to it, connect to it, become one with it. ....When someone meditates or becomes enlightened, they’re moving more deeply into that quantum realm.....You move more deeply into the basic fabric of the universe and actually become more consciously a part of it....Spiritual practices allow you to dive deep and become immersed in the quantum Platonic world of spacetime geometry. You could call it God if you wanted to.


They both are talking about the same thing, and this is how so many will fall for this. How is this consciousness going to come about? One guess. It is deadly dogma, disguised under slightly different terms in the New Age beliefs, Freemasonry, 'mystery religions', the 12th Imam (Mahdi), Buddhism etc. All of these dogmas envision science as their vehicle of accomplishing their utopia of global consciousness and bliss as little "gods". Trust Jesus - this doesn't end well for the majority who will never understand nor suspect what coordination is going on behind the scenes. All these men of reknown had to do was remove Our Heavenly Father from your mind and heart, and substitute science instead as the source of all truth. This is quasi science that sounds great to those who trust science and knowledge, but it is merely Adam and Eve in the garden all over again falling for the serpent's same lies. What was, will be again.



posted on Nov, 1 2012 @ 03:35 PM
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reply to post by WhoKnows100
 


Normally I would agree with you, but these guys are legit. Believe me, the don't call him SIR Roger Penrose for nothing

He has a better understanding of relativistic space/time geometery than probably Einstein.



posted on Nov, 1 2012 @ 04:47 PM
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Originally posted by DocHolidaze
reply to post by Just Chris
 


? no one can be spot on about something like that, its a plausible theory though.

it seems to me they just arranged words to make somthing sound complicated that really isnt. we all return to the elements that formed us, and in that, the energy of who we are, and the energy we create never cease to exist. thus never completing its journey.
edit on 31-10-2012 by DocHolidaze because: (no reason given)

I think your right. Ghosts or Entities, make a choice to stay at the next level after death. If one chooses to carry on, I think that as the "soul" travels through the various levels and/or multiverses, it will, finally, be reabsorbed into the Universe. But, when that happens, I think we loose our individuality, and who we were forever.



posted on Nov, 1 2012 @ 05:11 PM
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I think this is awesome... its great for discussion however I am not really buying the whole thing (article).

Here is what I imagine...

Its much more complicated. Our soul is not localized in the brain.. it can't be. I think of it as an energetic field, or so I imagine it to be. Our memories are not stored in the brain, more like they are stored in a field/realm and are accessible within this field of reality via the brain. If the brain is dead.... the field continues regardless. The physical realm transforms while the soul stays the same.

I also imagine the spirit is our personality that sticks with us throughout eternity.

It changes... everything changes "with time".

IF the soul/spirit lies outside of time....... then we have a realm of stability whereas nothing changes. It just IS.



posted on Nov, 1 2012 @ 06:11 PM
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reply to post by wrkn4livn
 


they is no way to know if im right, it just seem the truth to me after what ive experienced in this world, i want to say ur right about the entiteys staying back, but then again no one can be for sure. what if ghosts are just alternate dimensions playing it self out and in the endless possibilities of alternate dimensions say a couple or few of those dimensions play out were the subject lives in the same spot and has a similar life but maybe the timeline is slightly off, so dimensions that are alternate yet similar and/or identicle in acts, but different in time start to reveal themselves to one another because of a shared energy source or soul. i dont know im starting to think i smoke to much as i write this but do get what im saying?



posted on Nov, 1 2012 @ 06:31 PM
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Originally posted by DreamerOracle
S+F ... And a Star & Flag to the professors, Something I learned a while back. A State changing experience... Literally
Question is how does the process of returning work (reincarnation) is it random or are we bound by Gravitons.... or a quantum signature given off by the host in some way(Round Peg, Round Hole) and then there's residual memories. Throws up a lot of questions.

Cool post I look forward to reading more from these two.
edit on 31-10-2012 by DreamerOracle because: (no reason given)


Note to self: Never read a post like this before I sleep
.. Apparently its a form of fusion, after your energy or photons/electrons return to the universe by turning into virtual photons at which point it leaves the microtubules... then returning at some point to a new Host/Microtubules in a form of "Fusion" process keyword there. An idea ... Yes Virtual Photons are real...
well Virtual that is.
Virtual Particles
edit on 1-11-2012 by DreamerOracle because: (no reason given)


Not forgetting that Photons/Electrons are both Particles and Waves, pointed out to me just by a freind of mine. So although the Soul/consciousness is tide to the microtubules it can also be in an Infinte number of different places at the same time (Wave Form) Particles and Waves
edit on 1-11-2012 by DreamerOracle because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 2 2012 @ 07:06 AM
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The fact that "soul" is actually matter doesn't give life any less value IMHO. And the fact that brain could be understood as a biological computer doesn't either. Also, these ideas are anything but new; people like Timothy Leary promoted the idea in the 60's and 70's, but he is still widely overlook because of his status.

The "eight circuit model" is the future of psychology and the study of consciousness. And that's just one way of representing it. IMHO it's anything but complete.

Peace out.





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