Who is Gods creator?

reply to post by AthlonSavage


I think we are meant to appreciate imperfection, not abhor it. Imperfection allows for change, which allows for emotion and thought, which allows for experience, which is what makes life worthwhile. To be perfect is to lose all of these things. To be perfect is to exist for all of eternity precisely as you were born, and to be born precisely in the same condition you will die in. To be perfect is to experience a monotony of existence, in which every day is indistinguishable from the last.

Perfection is repetition, and repetition is hell.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by randyvs

I also agree with this part of your post.

afterinfinity
The part about the pointless question? Oh, I know it. I've seen it. The truth is quite literally as old as the ancient civilizations that discovered half of our greatest scientific developments before we ever thought of it. It's not a pointless question for me. It's The Secret, and it uses a basic psychological trick that goes much deeper than anyone imagined. Thoughts have a gravity of their own, a gravity that can change everything about you. Remember when I said "God" is gravity?

I could of sworn I said it first. No, maybe it was radiation my personal candidate for the unified fishy field theory wherein God swims like minnows microscopic in and out of ALL MATTER or potencial matter to create it. Gravity a serious word, just like Doubt--thoughtforms with creative power to thwart disable anyone of the most sensible mindthink. Who is Gods creator? WE ARE; by definition are its 'children/ itself;' and report back our experiences (its experiences) and in so doing expand ITS understanding of Itself. The human rules this gameboard (shark specie has done nothing to advance either itself or God for 350 million years, jab at evolutionists).

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

The other possibility. Humans created Biblical God in their image.

You know that actually makes sense..

The majority of our populace mirrors the archetype perfectly.

God bless em'

reply to post by DeliberatusImmemor

Originally posted by DeliberatusImmemor
reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

 

The other possibility. Humans created Biblical God in their image.

You know that actually makes sense..

The majority of our populace mirrors the archetype perfectly.

You mean...they actually worship themselves? I knew it!

If you look at the thread in my signature, you can actually see that I have made this argument before.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I'll have to take a look, sounds interesting.

You mean...they actually worship themselves? I knew it!

So they are confused and believe themselves to be worshiping an external "God", when they are actually embodying (worshiping) the judgmental qualities of their deity, or "self"?

Religion confuses me!

Looking forward to reading your thread.

reply to post by DeliberatusImmemor


The way I phrase it is that we essentially are glorifying what we perceive to be our greatest attributes while worshipping what we wish to become. We seem to have a strange fixation on perfection, which in itself reeks of the ignorance of ungrateful mortals. Any true god would understand the terrible price one must pay for omnipotence and omniscience, and would yearn to be a weak and ignorant individual, yearn for the chaos of imperfection. At least such a manifestation is able to feel. Joy and love are well-worth the pain and sacrifice that comes with being mortal. Any god would understand this, and would not ask anyone to worship perfection.

Perfection is as terrible a curse as can be bestowed, for in the end, anyone who is granted perfection will come to hate it. Lack of challenge is lack of triumph, and lack of triumph is lack of purpose. In the end, those who seek perfection will lose the one thing they desire most - a meaningful existence. Perfection exists to end, and imperfection exists to become.

That's the ultimate truth, in my opinion. All things change with motion, and there is only one logical outcome for either of these qualities.

Originally posted by AthlonSavage


So who is God?
And who is Gods Creator?

edit on 30-10-2012 by AthlonSavage because: (no reason given)

1 feels thru experience WE ALL* become closer to the CREATOR and if this is a true question you are asking AthlonSavage then ask within first and if you do not receive a clear enough message, in time 1 feels there will be an opportunity to better understand the CREATOR of us ALL as we Ascend into Higher Frequencies of Existence where the current awareness level understanding cannot fathom as opposed to Ascending into Lower Frequency realms placed potentially Further away from the SOURCE for reasons related to personal vibrations and actions as to FORCE you to be cleansed as you re acquire interest in the who CREATED YOU and as the reason for you being Created Drives you HOME...

NAMASTE*******

I didn't read the whole thread, so maybe someone else said this; but to answer the first question "who is God's creator?" Clearly, the reason we use the word "God" as a label is exactly because we know everything must come from something, yet we know this thing called Life, must at the very First come from Nothing. We know that Something cannot come from nothing, so We Call This Something "God". The "mysterious wonder that has no creator" is called "God" for the very reason that the word "God" implies Supreme, Supernal, Absolute, Diefic, Immutable, Uncaused Cause of all that is. We use the word "God" because it works to mean "That Which Was Not Created" meaning It always was, therefore "God" is the best word we know to mean the Supreme Isness, Which Always Was and Always Is. God Is, that means that everything that comes and goes is within the Presence of It's Totality. There is only One is because It Is The Absolute that has no beginning and so no end.

The Sourceless Source="God". We can call this Living Presence that includes 'everything' we call Life ( and more) by any name that works for us, but "God" seems a good word for It. Most of us know that the word "God" means Something Beyond the intellect and thought that is Transcendent of time and space, but includes time and space.

"God" is UnCaused that is precisely why we refer to It as "God". God is the First Principle and we all know that a principle (like arithmetic) has no source it is just a fact, as arithmetic, we know it exists whether we know our 'numbers' or not. The Divine Principle is the Ultimate Principle and It Exists even if we do not know It. God just Is and has no causer behind It-- It goes by a lot of names, but the word "God" seems to be a very applicable word, in whatever language It is spoken.

Since "God" the "Uncaused Whatever" that IS the Cause of "everything that has a cause" we call that "incomprehensible thing" "God". Since There IS Something that Causes 'things" That Has No Cause and Has no source of Its Self then it is Absloute and Total and All. That fact makes It Divine and Holy and Sacred. God the Uncaused One is All Powerful and All Intelligence, obviously. Thus, to say it again, the very reason we call God "God" is that It exists and has no creator.

reply to post by Sweetmystery

I didn't read the whole thread, so maybe someone else said this; but to answer the first question "who is God's creator?" Clearly, the reason we use the word "God" as a label is exactly because we know everything must come from something, yet we know this thing called Life, must at the very First come from Nothing. We know that Something cannot come from nothing, so We Call This Something "God". The "mysterious wonder that has no creator" is called "God" for the very reason that the word "God" implies Supreme, Supernal, Absolute, Diefic, Immutable, Uncaused Cause of all that is. We use the word "God" because it works to mean "That Which Was Not Created" meaning It always was, therefore "God" is the best word we know to mean the Supreme Isness, Which Always Was and Always Is. God Is, that means that everything that comes and goes is within the Presence of It's Totality. There is only One is because It Is The Absolute that has no beginning and so no end.

You mean energy? Energy is "God"? Because matter can neither be created nor destroyed, and matter is composed of energy bound by gravitational force.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Well, I don't know if I would call it energy, I think not. But, I don't know much about energy.

I am thinking that whatever this Uncreated Isness is (that created every thing) it would be more like a Principle rather than a 'thing'. Like the principle of music, you know it exists, but it has no 'mass' there is no music (yet it does exist when you 'make the principle evident as music 'heard' by way of instruments, notes, chords and sounds' . Arithmetic is the same; a principle exists but we do not see it directly, we only know it exists because it "manifests" as numbers and equations we can use and write and see.

God, unlike energy, is undetectable--It cannot found. I think we can find and use energy, but we cannot find and use the Ineffable Isness called "God".

God is a word for 'seomthing' without form and It would be 'above' matter or beyond tangibility.

Since we do not have a word for whatever that is, we call it Ineffable. It is Something that is not a 'thing' It is more like "information" or something more like a verb as in an Isness, or Being in a purest state.

Like an unlimited light, a light faster than measurable light. A light that is imperceptible and has no measure, yet It exists because we see the effects of It as this world of matter. We can measure this world, as It's effects, but we cannot measure IT.

Something invisible but Infinite Power, or Infinite Power of Intelligence. Is that energy? I don't know. I think energy is measurable. God is unknowable because It transcends everything measurable.

My point was, and maybe it's a difficult point to get to, but there is no word for "God" because it is 'before' all things and is the manifesting Principle 'being all things'. It is the Divine Life Principle. It has to be Changeless and Absolute or It is not "God". It's not thoughts since thoughts are measurable things (they come and go they are not Changeless and Absolute and Infinite).

So, we call it "God" as the attempt to name The Ineffable Isness That is Unnameable and Unknowable by Its very nature It must be Untouchable and Absolute. We 'see' It is Real by It's evidence left behind, as in the effects of Its Invisible Presence, this world is Its 'fruits" the clue it leaves us that It is Real (the clue it leaves is this world of matter-time-things-experiencing).

Originally posted by AthlonSavage
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

If God created Humans in a mortal body which ages doesnt that indicate the envitable entrophy of the body and mind with age. Does this point away from perfection?
Could it be possible God created Humans as perfect against his image in the form of a first born. Then as we age and progress we become less and less perfect?

Symbolic of entropy all things affected; not only the body (an eventual) corpse but also the demise of civilizations; stasis should not be a word used other than as purely 'theoretical' in concept. Entropy and attrition work together to cause natural decay/destruction of all and is a process used in order to bring about change neg/pos, for some reason it is necessary to achieve perfection; as ridiculous as it sounds. The Human idea as an expression of Gods ultimate creation within the boundries of our environment? yes, we see the other manefestations (millions) of lessor but just a brilliant (considering their limited roles) all around us. I think the Bee has to be in the top five. The irony with aging is as we become less perfect as a biological/organic vehicle we gain wisdom and yet at the same time become even more enigmatic regarding our purpose. This growing older process makes no sense as in results in death; a prospect that seems to cancel the whole experiment (fear factor that seems to boomerang everything). Bodily death=Spirit/soul eternity, it is too much for the unenlightenned to comprehend (how does one explain to the child it has a limited lifespan; the child would naturally say "WHY NOT?"). Irony must be at work here on some level.

Originally posted by Sweetmystery
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

Well, I don't know if I would call it energy, I think not. But, I don't know much about energy.

I am thinking that whatever this Uncreated Isness is (that created every thing) it would be more like a Principle rather than a 'thing'. Like the principle of music, you know it exists, but it has no 'mass' there is no music (yet it does exist when you 'make the principle evident as music 'heard' by way of instruments, notes, chords and sounds' . Arithmetic is the same; a principle exists but we do not see it directly, we only know it exists because it "manifests" as numbers and equations we can use and write and see.

Three elements are the principle of all that exists-the universal trinity. But to the material element must be added the universal fluid which plays the part of intermediary between spirit and matter, the nature of the latter being too gross for spirit to be able to act directly upon it.

Although, from another point of view, this fluid may be classed as forming part of the material element, it is, nevertheless, distinguished from that element by certain special properties of its own. If it could be classed simply and absolutely as matter, there would be no reason why spirit also should not be classed as matter. It is intermediary between spirit and matter.

It is fluid, just as matter is matter, and is susceptible of being made, through its innumerable combinations with matter, under the directing action of spirit, to produce the infinite variety of things of which you know as yet but a very small portion. This universal, primitive, or elementary fluid, being the agent employed by spirit in acting upon matter is the principle without which matter would remain forever in a state of division, and would never acquire the properties given to it by the state of ponderability.
-Allan Kardec

reply to post by Shadow Herder


reply to post by Sweetmystery

God = Idea

Holy Spirit = Action

Son = Vessel for the action

All things are composed of ideas, movement, and manifestation. You have the idea, the energy with which to express the idea, and the material through which to express the idea. So many people think they know so much about the Holy Trinity from the Bible, which is the same as saying, "I draw pictures, so I know everything there is to know about art." There are layers upon layers of metaphorical understanding to the idea of the holy trinity. The trinity is holy because everything is composed of some rendition of the three things I mentioned above. Even the universe itself is composed of three primary elemental factors.

This falls in line with an idea I have repeatedly offered to the denizens of ATS - the universe is motion. Motion, manifestation, mastery. Motion, the spirit, brings energy to the equation by which to transform the proverbial lead into gold, or turn that which is dark into that which is light. Ignorance into understanding, handicap into capability...that's not to say it transforms it into something more useful, it simply provides the energy for the process by which we grasp the purpose. Manifestation gives corporeal form as a hierarchal system by which to experience and learn from the laws of existence, each level preparing the individual manifestation for the next level of existence. Mastery is the knowledge and experience, the understanding, by which to comprehend motion and harness manifestation to its full potential. If you master the degree of understanding designated for your sector, you move on. If you do not, then you get held back. There's no problem with this...what better way to spend all of eternity, than mastering the understanding of that which you are, that from which you came, and that to which you will go? It is an infinite cycle of learning, forgetting, and relearning. The game that has infinite possibilities is always more enticing than the game that plays the same storyline, same characters, and same talents over and over again.

This, to my understanding, is the fundamental nature of the holy trinity...and by extension, the universe itself. Unfortunately, many religious factions are far too engrossed in the 'here and now' to grasp the subtleties of that in which they place so much significance. They read black where others read white.

People keep repeating that something can not come from nothing, but still refuse to explain the cause of god. Either god came from nothing, or he has a cause. Which is it? You can't just argue that god is timeless or just always was. That's a cop out of extreme proportions. If you can designate a guess on the unknown as transcending space and time, you first need evidence that this is possible. At this point there's no proof that there is an "outside of space and time". If you can consider god as eternal and timeless, then why couldn't the universe be timeless as well? I never understand that illogical argument. I know religion as a whole has been weakening with its influence over society over the last decade+ but people are still desperate to cling to this fantasy all powerful all knowing god. It makes no sense at all. Again, somebody needs to explain to me why god is eternal and the universe cannot be. It is merely twisting facts to fit your preconceived notions.

reply to post by Barcs


Something doesn't have to have a definition for us to supply one. Due to our limited perspective, we see just enough to determine existence but not enough to determine the true nature, which allows us to supply a subjective label that enables us to communicate and record ideas effectively according to our subjective existential observation.

Because these operations are intended to serve our existence and our existence alone, they are nothing more than a crutch by which to assist our existence up to the point when such crutches are no longer needed. At that point, definitions fall away and true nature is observed fully and equally amongst all parties. Suffice it to say that we are invalids struggling to evolve according to the whims of the world in which we live, despite knowing only a tiny fraction of what the world is really about.

Thankyou for your circular reasoning athlonsavage

In reality, God is an ultimate concept, and absolute concepts in their very nature transcend the limits of logical system based reasoning. This is grade 1 philosophy.

When you say I believe in God, you're not making a quantitative statement. You're basically saying I believe beyond this conditioned state of being lies an intrinsically unfathomable force called by us God. This force by nature is not subject to critical analysis. Theology starts from this assumption, a faith and belief, in short, a feeling (just as atheism chooses its own epistemological starting points to support its faith in God's non existence) of Gods presence in the world.

reply to post by dontreally


That was a beautiful and well-reasoned explanation of your thoughts in the matter.

Originally posted by Barcs
People keep repeating that something can not come from nothing, but still refuse to explain the cause of god. Either god came from nothing, or he has a cause. Which is it?

There is a point at the highest degree of consciousness where "everything" and "nothing" are almost synonymous. M-theory calls this the 10th dimension (or the 11th depending on who you ask). Buddhists call this the void. No matter what you call it, it's not an easy concept for the human mind to understand.

"Nothing" is not a concept that can actually exist in this universe, only through excluding things from the set of things we wish to define can we say there's nothing at any location. You walk into an "empty" room, devoid of furniture, people, etc. and you say "theres nothing in this room", but when you took inventory you excluded the air, since there's certainly air in the room and air is certainly "something". Suppose you remove the air from the room and seal it, creating a perfect vacuum (which only exists theoretically) and say that there is nothing...but there is still the fact that the space in the room exists; there is still "universal background information" which defines that room as a space.

In the void, everything exists. Every imaginable universe with every possible beginning and every possible ending, cointaining every possible action and result. This realm contains the potential for the creation of literally everything you could possibly imagine, and yet it is formless. There is no seperation between possibilities in the void, they are all blended together in a singularity. It is impossible to define any single thing, like say an apple, while still remaining in the void, you'd have to descend down the dimensions to our universe, our specific instance of this universe, find the point along a 4-dimensional time line where an apple tree had evolved, then you could say "that is an apple". Everything is nothing...try not to overheat your brain thinking about this.

You can't just argue that god is timeless or just always was. That's a cop out of extreme proportions.

...

If you can consider god as eternal and timeless, then why couldn't the universe be timeless as well?

It's not really a cop-out. God is not constrained to the 4th dimension as we are, "he" is way above it. From his perspective, our universe always has and always will exist, and so does he. From our perspective, the universe had a beginning, or at least it appears to have a beginning, because we're right in the middle of a time-line looking back.

If you can designate a guess on the unknown as transcending space and time, you first need evidence that this is possible. At this point there's no proof that there is an "outside of space and time".

We'll never be able to gather evidence within time and space of something outside of time and space. Well maybe I shouldn't say never but it seems pretty damn unlikely given the nature of the question. It's like asking a blind man to prove the existence of color. I doubt we'll ever be able to create something in this dimension that can transcend dimensions and send back information, simply because anything created in this dimension must obey the laws of this dimension.

However we can certainly theorize using what we know of this dimension to extrapolate the others, and this has already been done. I recommend looking up "Imagining the 10th dimension", a series of videos on youtube, which are really good at explaining these ideas from a simplified theoretical science point of view.

Personally I made the intuitive leap that God is the consciousness behind the 10th dimension, mainly because I think if all this information exists, there must be a mind to store and percieve that information.

Originally posted by Shadow Herder

"If the latter were the case, God would not be God, for He would be effect and not cause; He cannot be both cause and effect."

Yet the bible says "I am the Alpha AND the Omega". Wouldn't this say that the cause-and-effect argument may have a single exception in the acceptance of God?

reply to post by therealdemoboy

Yet the bible says "I am the Alpha AND the Omega". Wouldn't this say that the cause-and-effect argument may have a single exception in the acceptance of God?

If you can show us how that is physically possible - how the metaphorical ball might push itself - then we could consider it.