Hurricane Sandy: Problems at Five Nuke Plants

And noooo I'm not talking 'doomsday' - just keep in mind - If you believe MSM is going to relay the TRUTH of this matter? Think again. Or go check out some of the Fukishima threads.

Praying for God's mercy on the USA

peace

MSM may not have relayed what Fuku did, but TEPCO relayed it just fine in the timeline they had up themselves for a good long time. Might still be there for all I know... I avoid it as much as possible with this topic. Ever wonder if you can learn TOO much about something? (...you can. )

In this case..Fuku was radically different and nothing in the U.S. in this event compares in any way. Fuku lost all on-site generating power. Not disabled or inoperative. They were gone. Water loss. Vanished or utterly destroyed. It's an irony I'll never get over...the one thing a Nuclear Power plant cannot live without is power it's not generating itself.

When the generators went within seconds on the time line....that sealed their fate. Not because solutions wouldn't normally have been available. They would have....if that whole area of Japan hadn't gone out into the Pacific at the same time. Short of the Ronald Reagan going to 110% power to get there and then beaching itself to throw lines down and power the place itself, there literally wasn't power to be had in the very very short window of time they had.

Next was what was predictable, as I leaned in time. No power...no coolant flow. No coolant flow...heat builds exponentially. heat building, means pressure and pressure in a containment has another name in most circumstances. Explosive Device. In this case....even THAT didn't kill 'em because they had that solved too. Industrious little guys, I'll give 'em that and they don't know HOW to give up. They vented the systems before they blew from over pressure and popped the containment like a big party favor. Unfortunately.....that wasn't nitrogen or helium they vented and we all saw what happened when the containment just changed to being the entire building structure. Pop went the units one after the other.....and ended all options they ever had.

Just my observations and and personal interpretation of TEPCO's timeline and detailed accounting of the first few days by the minute as well as analysis later. Some may recall the almost STUPIDLY desperate ideas they were floating to get any power to that place...because any power at high enough levels would have saved it.

^^^^ In the U.S., for a Hurricane, we don't generally have the whole land wiped clean as if by the hand of God like the Tsunami did. There are always options for power....even if the Department of Defense has to drive 18 wheel generators (basically what they are) and park them like they're turning the nuke plant into a giant truck stop.

I think a lot of news agencies had articles about nuclear plants typed out even before Sandy arrived, because they know it will create sensation.

What I would have done to sell...

I'm telling you guys...WW3 has started a long time ago. No more Nuclear bombs, no more Biological...it's all being done with HAARP type weapons. This latest hurricane was in retaliation for the Fukishima event.

Originally posted by silo13
And noooo I'm not talking 'doomsday' - just keep in mind - If you believe MSM is going to relay the TRUTH of this matter? Think again. Or go check out some of the Fukishima threads.

Praying for God's mercy on the USA

peace

The MSM isn't really reporting on it around these parts, this is just from the power company people here helping us restore the electricity and other services, they all say the same thing that Northeast Utilities has been saying.. The pants were shut down to prevent debris form clogging the intake pipes, there is no danger from the plants going critical..

A lot of these power people are not from our area and have no loyalty to the companies here, they are guests that are assessing the situation and just being friendly with the people here that are really in a bad way.

Goes to my old thought not EVERYTHING is a conspiracy, and not everything is a sinister coverup. I really wish the treads on "US Fukishima in Progress" and "Hurricane was made by HAARP as retaliation" would stop and we actually try to rebuild the Eastern Seaboard of the USA, and focus on the people hurt, displaced or otherwise struggling right now. God knows had we had that last year instead of the massive media blackout on what really happened here, we may have had our lights back on in a faster timeframe than 2 weeks.

It's not hard you know.. all it takes is saying "This is not a conspiracy, people are really hurting, what can I do to help or give well wishes" to get past all the crap and the pseudo-science.

What something everyone that keeps pushing this HAARP nonsense about this storm fails to realize is..

1) June 1 to Nov 1 is HURRICANE SEASON in the Atlantic Basin, however Tropical Cyclones have formed before June 1 and after Nov 1. It's NOT that unusual.

2) the Northeast United States beginning in mid October is at risk EVERY SINGLE YEAR for a phenomenon known as a Nor Easter. These powerful COLD WATER cyclones hit every year, normally with snow and rain, and Hurricane force wind, and we are very very used to them. It's not ominous that one was beginning to form, not out of the ordinary and certainly not some man made force. They happen, plain and simple.

So taking that into account. Hurricane Season, with a Tropical Cyclone that BEGAN IN THE TROPICS!!! Like every single other Tropical Cyclone, and REMAINED a Tropical Cyclone right up until landfall (and was ONLY a Category One storm) and a Nor'easter that was about to hit New England giving the storm the energy it needed to continue on, just created a perfect set of events to be put into motion. It was only ONE YEAR AGO the Northeast was in darkness for two weeks after a Nor'easter (Alfred) hit the area, and we were STILL RECOVERING.

Around here, the media has no reason to lie about the severity of the situation, and they really haven't been pulling punches. People asked about the Nuke Plants early on on Monday morning, the power companies decided at that point to shunt them to standby mode, BEFORE the storm hit. and not one of them was adversely affected.

Get off of it, and stop trying to turn a natural event into something it's not.. Help the region rebuild, trying to come up with reasons why this was some man made disaster or that nuke plants are going to go critical are not helping in the least..

reply to post by SassyCass

I'm landing late to link some posts I made the night this happened.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

If you read these you know a little more about the "dangers" involved. Which have as yet to materialize.

Shutting down a nuclear power plant is not an emergency. The "control rods" are lowered into place and that stops the "controlled chain reaction". So, like turning off your oven, there is still heat inside and that has to cool off slowly. To do this, they run a lot of water through the core continuously and that carries away the heat. Electrical pumps move the water. The power for those pumps comes from off site.

If that power is interrupted, then they have diesel generator back up pumps that take over. If they run out of fuel or if the they become flooded in a storm surge or river rise from rainfall, then they too stop. That is when you can begin to sweat. If the coolant flow stops for any reason, the water in the core begins to heat up. Unlike your oven, the core of fuel rods generates its own heat. The water boils, the level drops and the fuel rods eventually become exposed and melt.

The fire and melting produces hydrogen which builds up and may explode... the molten core sinks to the bottom and may burn thru the containment and then you have gas and steam escaping into the atmosphere. The explosions aren't too good for the works either. Spent fuel pools hold all the fuel that has been used in the reactor plus the fresh fuel that is going in. That pool is not protected in a vessel like where the core is but needs to be cooled by pumps and back up pumps and even firehouses if need be to keep it from beginning to heat.

Have I lost you yet? I am trying to simplify the process whereby a dangerous situation could arise and its not easy. These plants are the most complicated bits of machinery man makes. All they do is boil water to make steam to turn turbines that make electricity so you can read this.

My understanding is that the plants that were shut down were shut down in order to prevent an emergency from occurring, not because of one. That is standard procedure. The one plant at oyster creek is operating on back up diesel until off site power is restored. They say they have two weeks of fuel on site. I have not been keeping up, so I don't really know if they have restored power to the grid in that area yet. They will I am sure, but keep one finger crossed behind your back...

Originally posted by fltcui
reply to post by SassyCass

 

No, the circulating water pumps are used to pump water through the main condenser tubes to maintain a vacuum in there for the Main Turbine to operate properly. The main turbine turns the generator that generates the electricity.

But she is right. After shutdown, the pumps circulate water to transfer heat away from the core. Those pumps get their power off site from the grid. If thats off, they resort to backup. You're talking about during normal operation.

Originally posted by Nuke2013

 

Shutting down a nuclear plant is routine, the only major draw back it to "get rid" of the accumulated power throught the electrical vines. Usualy that "extra" power is sent to anoother facility or send to Quebec Hydro at a loss, yes they pay to get rid of it.

I thought electrical power generation stops when the plant "shuts down"? Where does the "extra accumulated power come" from?

reply to post by Hijinx

The pumps could serve a few purposes at the plant, and if it was salt water from the storm surge they could be toast if any of the circuitry got drenched.
Nuclear plants do have back up systems to deal with loss of pumps. The issue that was the nail in the coffin for fukushima, was a combination of technology and operator error. The control room assumed a valve was open when it was i fact closed, due to a default when the system shuts down. This combined with loss of instrumentation, inevitably lead to the meltdown. Not saying if these things did not occur, it wouldn't have happened but there is a small chance it could have been avoided.

I don't understand why nuclear plants on the coast aren't designed with flooding, hurricanes, tsunamis and other natural disasters in mind. Just seems silly to put something so potentially deadly, precariously balanced on doom.

That is just misinformed on so many levels I don't even know where to begin...
My advice to you is keep your day job.

reply to post by Zaphod58

Agreed, except for that ice part... whomever said that was just a little bit misniformed. Have you heard any further about backup cooling at Oyster Creek? Me neither.

Edit:

www.chicagotribune.com...

Okay...

www.newjerseynewsroom.com...

The formal “alert’’ status at the Oyster Creek nuclear power plant in Lacey Township was terminated at 3:52 a.m. today after the water levels at the plant’s intake system decreased to normal levels, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission has confirmed this morning.

Offsite power also has been restored to the nuclear power facility, which had lost electrical service due to Hurricane Sandy and was using backup generators to power water pumps that cool the fuel stored in the nuclear reactor.

I think they meant fuel pools...

If we can believe that then the low level alert is over. Dodgeda radioactive bullet there. Hurricanes are the only other force of nature that can deliver a one two punch of power out and flooding. The result of that could have produced a Fukushima like event. But the MSM is saying not to worry now.

The proof of that will be that the power to millions of people begins to come back on in the next 24-48 hours. They will restart the plants in succession over the next couple of days. Where there is storm damage to power lines will be a different story.

We're screwed, if Sandy keeps it up, then we are going to be facing a nuclear disaster.

Better get my gear ready.

Originally posted by FreedomCommander
We're screwed, if Sandy keeps it up, then we are going to be facing a nuclear disaster.

Better get my gear ready.

How are we facing a Nuclear disaster? The power companies did exactly what they should have done, there was never a danger of a meltdown from Sandy, we have on site at all these reactors backup power to run the cooling systems and all shutdowns were precautionary PRIOR to the storm hitting to prevent a disaster..

Please keep up the doom hype on this.. I mean really...

reply to post by vkey08


Sorry, I'm still cautious on the whole nuclear thing, since I don't trust what the news says.

It was similar to Fukagate.

Originally posted by FreedomCommander
reply to post by vkey08

 

Sorry, I'm still cautious on the whole nuclear thing, since I don't trust what the news says.

It was similar to Fukagate.

I'm not talking about the news, I'm talking about people that have come in from other parts of the country to help us get back on our feet after this storm (and we have another coming next week it seems) these people have no reason to lie, have no loyalties to the local authorities and could really care less about us under most conditions..

This is nothing like Fuki... We all knew what was going on, everyone in the areas were notified, in a timely fashion, evacuation orders were given, the power companies did their best to keep floodwaters from hurting Nuclear, and traditional power plants, a few substations got hurt by floods but they are working fast to restore those..

This is not the same situation..

Originally posted by vkey08

Originally posted by FreedomCommander
reply to post by vkey08

 

Sorry, I'm still cautious on the whole nuclear thing, since I don't trust what the news says.

It was similar to Fukagate.

I'm not talking about the news, I'm talking about people that have come in from other parts of the country to help us get back on our feet after this storm (and we have another coming next week it seems) these people have no reason to lie, have no loyalties to the local authorities and could really care less about us under most conditions..

This is nothing like Fuki... We all knew what was going on, everyone in the areas were notified, in a timely fashion, evacuation orders were given, the power companies did their best to keep floodwaters from hurting Nuclear, and traditional power plants, a few substations got hurt by floods but they are working fast to restore those..

This is not the same situation..

Let's hope it won't happen, else we are in trouble.

If what you say another storm will hit, then it better be smaller than this one, else every resource we have will be all for naught.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

When the generators went within seconds on the time line....that sealed their fate. Not because solutions wouldn't normally have been available. They would have....if that whole area of Japan hadn't gone out into the Pacific at the same time. Short of the Ronald Reagan going to 110% power to get there and then beaching itself to throw lines down and power the place itself, there literally wasn't power to be had in the very very short window of time they had.

Down the road (11km, 7miles) at Fukushima II they got the ame earthquake, a 14m Tsunami (twice as high as designed for) that flooded the generators spaces and made pretty much as much of a mess as was made at the destroyed plant......

but it was not a disaster - no radiation leaked, and although 1 person was killed ther was no danger, no public awareness, no horrorstories.

simply because the plants were designed a ddecade after those at Fuku 1 - the allowed hydrogen to vent, had better cooling systems, and more of the systems within the central containment area where they are less vulnerable.

And any plants designed today would be 30 years more advanced than that!!

reply to post by intrptr


The water started dropping faster than they expected I think. It wasn't long before I was reading articles that the cooling pumps were going to be turned back on, because the water levels had dropped low enough that the danger of damage to the pumps was ending.

I knew there wasn't any danger from a Cat 1 hurricane, just from watching Browns Ferry near where I used to live after a massive number of tornadoes, that were so much more damaging than any hurricane went through. Within three days they were off the backup power, and had a new incoming power line strung and operating. They had initial power restored by Sunday, with it going off on Wed evening prior.

Originally posted by intrptr

Originally posted by Nuke2013

 

Shutting down a nuclear plant is routine, the only major draw back it to "get rid" of the accumulated power throught the electrical vines. Usualy that "extra" power is sent to anoother facility or send to Quebec Hydro at a loss, yes they pay to get rid of it.

I thought electrical power generation stops when the plant "shuts down"? Where does the "extra accumulated power come" from?

He's not putting it in correct terms.

When a nuclear reactor is shutdown, it still generates heat, which is referred to as decay heat. You still need ways to remove that heat; if you don't, you'll have problems. The typical plant has several ways to deal with that, but they have to get their power from somewhere to do it - other power plants. A utility can take electricity from another of their plants, or they can purchase it from a competitor.

Edit: That decay heat generated is not used or sent elsewhere. It's not used for steam generation is a turbine to make electricity. It's just transferred out to whatever your "ultimate heat sink" is: a river, the ocean, a cooling tower, etc. It's just heat.