Need Help Finding Heaven - Seriously

Originally posted by schuyler
I agree that it might be a built-in quality that makes this impossible. That's where I have to come clean myself and say I have faith that it is explainable.

Nothing wrong with that.

You said that "cosmologists have to infer the existence of dark matter to account for their observations." The key point is that they have "observations" they feel must be accounted for. Their observations are very careful, and the pieces appear to be falling together like a jig saw puzzle waiting to be solved. The math is working.

I can't really say that I know just how well the math is working or not but the idea is 80 years old and it still not fully accepted. Some new idea may come along and bump it out of the way, proving that it was never anything more than a fudge factor.

We have observations of the 'other side,' too, but because they are personal and anecdotal, despite their remarkable similarity, they aren't accepted as valid. These observations are unacceptable first because they are personal and anecdotal, and second, because they fall outside the beliefs of reductionist scientists who believe such a place cannot exist. So they never get to the stage of trying to account for these observations.

I think the real limiting factor to proving the existence of the other side is equipment which can measure whatever the other side has to measure. Without it there will never be anything but anecdotal evidence.

Originally posted by schuyler

I put this statement into the dogmatic religious category. No proof whatsoever coupled with an intolerant inflexible attitude. That's kind of religion in a nutshell and precisely why science wants nothing to do with religion. And it's exactly the opposite of what I feel needs to happen if we are to make any progress forward on understanding Reality.

Alright then try the opposite: Cultivate negative thoughts and deeds and see what happens.

reply to post by LordPlanetArchitect


I'm very sorry for your situation, and I implore you to call a suicide prevention hotline, such as 1-800-273-8255 and just talk to someone. Sometimes it just takes a few moments of unloading your soul on someone who will listen sympathetically and offer support and help.

Please, make the call.

Originally posted by daskakik

I think the real limiting factor to proving the existence of the other side is equipment which can measure whatever the other side has to measure. Without it there will never be anything but anecdotal evidence.

Excellent point. Thank you.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by schuyler

I put this statement into the dogmatic religious category. No proof whatsoever coupled with an intolerant inflexible attitude. That's kind of religion in a nutshell and precisely why science wants nothing to do with religion. And it's exactly the opposite of what I feel needs to happen if we are to make any progress forward on understanding Reality.

Alright then try the opposite: Cultivate negative thoughts and deeds and see what happens.

The problem here is that it is not the point of the thread. We're not discussing individual behavior here. This is not a search for the kumbaya point where we can all become Lightworkers. There is plenty of room on ATS for you to discuss what you have expressed.

We are attempting to discuss how "the other side" can be incorporated into the scientific paradigm. Religion has, correctly, I think, figured out there is something there, but it has dressed it up in dogma and belief structures that science simply cannot accept. I maintain that if such a place or places are really there and a part of a greater Reality, then we ought to be able to find it scientifically. I reject the notion that we cannot or should not.

I was hoping to get some hints for which direction to pursue here. As we can all see, it's not easy.

reply to post by schuyler

Sounds like what you're looking for is occultism or esotericism. Have you ever looked into theosophy, anthoposophy, that sort of stuff?

reply to post by schuyler


The 'other side' cannot be measured because nothing cannot be measured.
This side there appears to be something but the 'other side' of something is nothing.
The 'other side' is without form, it is formless so how would you go about measuring formlessness?

This side is noisey. The 'other side' is peaceful.
Between the noise, behind the noise is silence.
It isn't really the 'other side', it is more like underneath.

reply to post by schuyler


dude....when you said you want "nuts and bolts"....the mechanics of it.....you did err
now go and actually read a good part of the bible...it knocks....your move. it'll be like supernatural magic!!

Originally posted by NewlyAwakened
reply to post by schuyler

 

Sounds like what you're looking for is occultism or esotericism. Have you ever looked into theosophy, anthoposophy, that sort of stuff?

Looks promising. Thanks for the tip!

Originally posted by GBP/JPY
reply to post by schuyler

 

dude....when you said you want "nuts and bolts"....the mechanics of it.....you did err

now go and actually read a good part of the bible...it knocks....your move.

it'll be like supernatural magic!!

I'm sorry, dude, but that's complete nonsense and unresponsive to boot. I do not accept your point of view and I did not "err" and really cannot accept you as an authority on the issue. If you want to talk Bible, by all means do so on the appropriate thread. I maintain that if it's part of Reality, it CAN be measured, understood, and most important of all, accepted into the scientific paradigm. I don't know how at this point, but this thread is exploring that possibility. It is NOT exploring religious dogma and beliefs.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by schuyler

 

The 'other side' cannot be measured because nothing cannot be measured.
This side there appears to be something but the 'other side' of something is nothing.

That statement is completely nonsensical to me. It has no meaning at all. I believe that "the other side" CAN be measured, if it's there.

I don't really want to get into a religious fight on this thread. I want to explore more of a merging of the two points of view with the idea that science is capable of explaining all of Reality. That's the goal. I can understand that some people cannot accept that and that they have their own versions of Reality. But for purposes of this thread, I don't really care.

Here is a thread that you might want to take a look at.
Scientists offer quantum theory of soul's existence

There is a story.....I did not write it.

"One day a man dies and finds himself on a road that leads in a certain direction. He follows that path and at some point encounters a dog. One that he remembers from his childhood, that had died (the dog greeting him and acknowledging he was that same dog).

The man and the dog then continue along the path.

After a time they encounter an incredible city that has walls surrounding it, made of pearls. There is also a gate that is made of diamond and in from of this gate, sat a person behind a desk. The man and his dog approach the person. The Man asks the person for some water to which he responds that all he need do is enter the gates and he can have all the water he wants. The man that asks if it would be ok for is dog to enter, as he is thirsty as well. The person responds that animals are not allowed within the gates, to which the man is taken to protect his dog and so he left the person and continued along the path.

The man and his dog continue along the path and after a while they find themselves looking at a farm. There are no walls and a simple house, with a well and spiket that allowed for the pumping a water. By this point both the man and the dog were very thirsty, the only issue was that in from of the house was a a person, sitting in a chair, seemed to be asleep. The man and the dog approached the person, apologized to the person for waking him up and asked if they could have some water.


The person upon awakening said that of course he could have some. The man then asked if it would be ok for his dog to also have some water.? The person responded that of course the dog could come in.


The man approached the well with the dog and the person who was dressed as a farmer. There was one cup near the pump. The man pumped water into the cup and first gave the water to his dog.

The afterwards he drank from the same cup to address his thirst. He then turned to the person and asked him if he new about the city surrounded by a wall.

The person responded by saying that, that place was hell and that he had made it to heaven. "

Any thoughts?

Originally posted by schuyler

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by schuyler

 

The 'other side' cannot be measured because nothing cannot be measured.
This side there appears to be something but the 'other side' of something is nothing.

That statement is completely nonsensical to me. It has no meaning at all. I believe that "the other side" CAN be measured, if it's there.

edit on 10/31/2012 by schuyler because: (no reason given)

There is no 'there'. There is only 'this' what is here.
The belief in 'somewhere/somewhen else' is what keeps you from realizing heaven. Searching and seeking is what causes the pain.
The only thing worth seeking is the cessation of seeking. What's worth seeking is surrender.
youtu.be...

reply to post by schuyler


Heaven is the absence of you.
Suffering is caused by the belief in a separate self. It is this believed in separate self that fights and resists and this is Hell.
The separate self 'wants' and 'does not want' whatever is arising. What is arising is arising but the human condition is desire and fear.
Humans don't want what they have and want what they don't have - this is insanity and it feels like Hell.
Accept and surrender to what is and the kingdom will be revealed.

The believed in separate self is what needs to realize that it cannot be separated from the whole.
When the two become one the kingdom will be revealed.

reply to post by schuyler


This is a rather new theory brought forth by expert physicists. Maybe this will help. I found it to be a very reasonable and pleasant way to think about the "afterlife".
Hope it helps you too!

www.dailymail.co.uk...

Can you tell me where the physical reality is?

Think about relativity. There is no absolut refernce. There is no place. Can such a system even be real then?

As I see it our reality is a very limiting specializing of the reality you call heaven or the other side.

To learn the laws of the ther side I guess you have to go to the other side and study them there since on this side you probabily can't find the root of all that exist.

I read all the books (they are all very good) you posted and I love physics. I believe in no religion but I have an own view on the true nature of life and the existence based on the personal experiences that I had.

I was an active lucid dreamer. And this is what I recomment you. Try to get there and start exploring that world. From there it isn't far to OBE and to "heaven". If you feel an overhelming joy and love then you are there.

You know those that end posts with: light and love
This were shallow words to me, empty and meaninless till to those personal experiences.
Now I know the awesome meaning. Although I am sure that 99% that close posts with this words post it shallow and dont have that deep experience that gives them a meaning.

Nothing is as valuable as the personal experience you had. You dont have to prove the "after life" to the world. You only have to experience it by yourself to know its authenticity. No one can do that for you but you.

And yes funny like you I also thought about how to make a bridge to the "other world" with a communication device. I gave that up.

One hint maybe. Most dreams on lower aware lucid dreams are just that: created dream worlds. A play ground if you want so. But you should be aware that this dreams can deliver you answers to questions you have.
You have to be clear about what you want to know and you can find yourself in a dream designed for exploring an answer on this question. I learnt a lot through this.

enjoy your journey

(and yes i know it's hard to become lucid in dreams. But its worth it. It changes how you experience dreams forever also if you let you fall back to normal non lucid dreams later)

reply to post by daskakik


Haha, just noticed you had beat me to it!

Heaven is in YOU !
it also can be Hell

so try to balance your karma doing good deeds
and avoid doing to much sins for your own sake
im not perfect either .. i still smoke

people dont realise that everytime they hurt someone
they are hurting themself in the long run

Originally posted by TWhatever
You know those that end posts with: light and love
This were shallow words to me, empty and meaninless till to those personal experiences.

I have lucid dreams and OBEs and I believe that those posts, while meaningful in their own way, don't portray the truth about reality. I plain and simple truth without warm fuzzy catch phrases or profound meanings.

Thanks, daskakik and Amarri for the reference to that thread! And thanks to TWhatever for a very interesting post. And thanks very much, Kashai, for a great story!

Many posters here continue to write of personal experiences and issue statements such as “Heaven is in YOU!” or “Heaven is the absence of you.” (Ouch!) or my favorite: “The belief in 'somewhere/somewhen else' is what keeps you from realizing heaven. Searching and seeking is what causes the pain.” There’s also a persistent idea that one ought not to pursue this line of thinking.

I appreciate your sentiments. This is a difficult subject to express in words, and putting words to feelings is difficult in the best of times. I also understand that some people believe it can’t be done. I believe it can, and that’s the topic of this thread. Obviously some people are either not understanding, or they are refusing to pursue this avenue. Let me try to explain the issue with a mundane example.

I’m driving along wanting to know where Walnut Shade, Tennessee is. I know it exists because my grandfather told me so. I don’t have a GPS or even a good map, so I stop at a gas station and ask.

“Where is Walnut Shade?”

The attendant looks at me in shock and says,

“Walnut Shade is in your heart.” A mechanic wheels out from beneath a car and says,

“Just go down to the seashore and gaze up at the night sky and you will come to know Walnut Shade!’ The owner comes out of his little shack and says,

“You really shouldn’t be looking for Walnut Shade. Just stop and enjoy your life.”

Talking to people like this and hearing their answers reminds me of the time, long ago, when I let a Hare Krishna devotee into my little apartment to talk because I wanted to understand what they were all about. The guy was just like you and me, except his head was shaved and he wore saffron robes. I began to ask him what his sect believed. His replies were like,

“Pigs eat stool, but life comes from the elephant’s nostrils.” I kept asking him questions and kept getting the same answers: “Pigs eat stool.” He was on a money hunt, of course, so I gave him a quarter for a glossy brochure about elephants and he left. I surmised that he was completely hypnotized. His view of Reality was so completely contrary to mine that we could not have a lucid conversation.

That’s what a lot of replies here sound like. When you say something like: “There is no 'there'. There is only 'this' what is here.” It may seem profound to you and embody what you have come to think as Truth, but to me it sounds completely nonsensical. The words do not parse into a meaning. They are actually worse than “Pigs eat stool,” which at least I can understand. The context is a bit weird, but it still has meaning.

Now a lot of the posts go on about love and light, peace and happiness. I’m all for it, but don’t you think these things are intrinsically good in their own right? Why does the issue revolve around being coerced to “do good” because of negative consequences if you do not? It seems to me that this is manipulative, like putting an electric fence around your yard so the dog gets zapped if he gets too near the perimeter. I admit that tis is one of my worries about the whole issue. It may be a totalitarian regime up there.

Now I’m not sure whether to just leave it here and admit that this thread hasn’t gotten us very far, or to pursue it. But I do have some basics:

1. The whole issue has something to do with vibration and frequency. The “other side” is of a higher vibration than our reality and its stuff is made of finer material.

2. The Other Side is basically inhabiting the same physical space we are, but because of this differing vibration, we can’t see each other and interaction is difficult. In other words, there's a Mount Rainier up there, too. And when we do stupid things, like light off hydrogen bombs, it affects them. They don't like it, and they'll take steps to stop it from happening.

3. I’ve heard it said that The Other Side is “as close as your TV set,” which tends to bolster the first two points.

If we could learn how to freely communicate between these two realms, it would have profound implications for our world. In order to do that we must have a theoretical foundation, and that’s what I’m interested in pursuing.

Originally posted by schuyler
If we could learn how to freely communicate between these two realms, it would have profound implications for our world. In order to do that we must have a theoretical foundation, and that’s what I’m interested in pursuing.

I have come to similar conclusions to yours as to its location/consistency, have given the communication aspect some thought and have come to the conclusion that it is likely "blocked" on the other side -- we're not meant to know what is beyond this reality, I believe that's for our own good, and we'll understand why once we cross over. When there are instances of communication, they are either mistakes, or a result of a deep connection that overrules that "blocking" in a way that doesn't violate the reason we're not supposed to communicate.