Need Help Finding Heaven - Seriously

reply to post by schuyler


Try the beach my friend, at sunrise or sunset. Best I've ever found.

That not withstanding, three rights, then make a left.

Just curious, why look now? It's what you make it.

reply to post by schuyler

For purposes of this thread, the question is, WHERE is the other side? Scientifically we’re obviously digging in the wrong place. So how can we resolve this issue scientifically? I’m not interested in Bible quotes or atheistic rants, but in plausible scenarios that incorporate present-day scientific progress, not ignore it.

If it was possible to trap human consiouness in a computer the we could chat to it on the computer and find out what happens fter the body dies. Mabey one day this will be possible. For now the issue cant be solved scientifically so we use faith. Faith in....afterlife, recincarntion?

What is the difference between recincarntion and possession?

Thank you all for some very interesting and sober replies. I tend to believe that the next big advance for our species is a merging understanding between science and religion, i.e.: Religion needs to dump some pretty silly beliefs and science has to quit throwing out the baby with the bathwater. That's where my "faith" resides. I just think we're still digging in the wrong place.

Now if we could discover the right place to dig, so to speak, and formulate an interface, the result could be awesome. Because right now, at least from a superficial level, things aren't working too well. I know some feel this is intentional, that "Earth is a school, etc." but if that's true, I think it's time to graduate, to move to the next level.

I'd like to develop the theory in a little more depth, and I thank you for your help.

The best advice I can give you is, stop now. Stop looking for answers that you can not find in this life time. Enjoy your life, love the people around and recieve love from them. Help those you can, you can not save the whole world, but you can make your small corner of the world a little bit better.

Dont waste time falling into this maze of questions leading to more questions, it wont do you any good.

Im as far away from an answer as I was when I started asking these questions.

Dont lose time you could have spent enjoying your life and those you love.

You will not find the afterlife untill you die, trust me.

You know I couldn't possibly have put it better myself.

i've wondered and wondered,looked for answers in science,philosophy,religion,spirituality,the occult and literature,everywhere.

Yet same as you I've only come up with one actual answer that makes any kind of sense to me and that is simple ~

All you're/I'm doing by tying our head in knots seeking heaven is focusing on the afterlife at the expense of this life !!!

Now I'm not saying there's no afterlife,I'm not saying there is.All I'm saying is I haven't found it either inside or outside or a path to finding it so I'm left with all questions I've always had and more besides.

The matter of an afterlife will take care of itself,if it's real I'll find out when I die,if it's not then there's nothing to worry about.Either way I intend to make the most of this life,what I've got left of it anyway.lol.

It's still worth speculating about just don't let it get in the way of the one life you definitely know exists.

Originally posted by schuyler
Thank you all for some very interesting and sober replies. I tend to believe that the next big advance for our species is a merging understanding between science and religion, i.e.: Religion needs to dump some pretty silly beliefs and science has to quit throwing out the baby with the bathwater. That's where my "faith" resides. I just think we're still digging in the wrong place.

That is why I recommended Monroe's book. Very science centered person who just found himself studying OBE's because he was experiencing them and wanted answers, only to find a lack of scientific information.

reply to post by daskakik


Thanks. I'm familiar with Monroe and the Monroe Institute. I even have some of his hemi-synch tapes. "Journeys out of the Body" is a real classic!

Stop now and enjoy your life!

Thanks. I've been studying this sort of thing seriously for 40 years. there's no way I'm going to stop. I'm just not a beach walking kind of guy. It's kind of boring. This is a lot more exciting. What if someone had told Einstein to just stop? (No, there's no comparison to me, personally.) Figuring this out is potentially the most important thing to ever happen with Mankind.

Why now?

This is the most enjoyable thing I can think of to do with my life at this point.

What's the difference between reincarnation and possession?

I'll give this a shot. Reincarnation is the "legal" incarnation of a soul into a body. Possession is the "illegal" possession of a body that already has a soul. I'm sure it can get more complext than that, but the basic issue is intent and consent.

Originally posted by schuyler
Thanks. I'm familiar with Monroe and the Monroe Institute. I even have some of his hemi-synch tapes. "Journeys out of the Body" is a real classic!

So no personal OBEs?

there's no way I'm going to stop.

I was wondering what makes these posters think you can't enjoy life and still search for answers.

reply to post by schuyler


First of all, it must be falsifiable, which could only happen if someone without a body paradoxically came back from the 'other side' who possessed documented evidence showing there is no 'other side'. The theory cannot be disproven in any way. According to Karl Popper, anything that is unfalsifiable cannot properly serve as a scientific model or hypothesis.

Only when it can be observed or tested will it be welcomed in science. Until then, we have to rely on the testimonials of the still-living.

The best description of heaven I have ever read is by C.S.Lewis...
...in his book The Great Divorce.

Originally posted by troubleshooter
The best description of heaven I have ever read is by C.S.Lewis...
...in his book The Great Divorce.

That wasn't Heaven... that was Purgatory

And I agree, a fantastic description.

We live in a world that we perceive through three dimensions. The world is not three dimensions.

Originally posted by daskakik
I suggest you read Robert Monroe's Journeys Out of the Body. One of the things I like about this book is the no nonsense approach. He has 2 other books but the third book seems "watered down" and it is claimed that the publisher would not put it out without some serious editing.

have to book mark this, very interesting read for sure

Geez Louise , you could try trippy trips, meditation, solitude, praying and so on. Just have to find your own way. But my short cut would be this: LOVE LOVE and LOVE again. Sure way.

Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne
reply to post by schuyler

 

First of all, it must be falsifiable, which could only happen if someone without a body paradoxically came back from the 'other side' who possessed documented evidence showing there is no 'other side'. The theory cannot be disproven in any way. According to Karl Popper, anything that is unfalsifiable cannot properly serve as a scientific model or hypothesis.

I agree. Any theory has to follow the scientific method. But I'm looking for the fundamental structure behind all this. It has to be independent of people and mathematically supportable. (I do realize there is the issue of mind creating reality and that whole complex issue--and something that is supported by Quantum Merchanics, btw.) If this is true, then the structure of Reality has to support it. As Greene has so simply and eloquently stated, "I see no evidence." My response is that there is no evidence of Atlantis in Colorado. Try digging in Santorini.

If we can figure out the theoretical basis, then we ought to be able to construct communications devices that allow two-way contact that are reliable and testable, so as not to rely on the notoriously unrelaible mediums, many of whom are outright charlatans, or bogus ITC devices that rely on questionable methods that are in use today.

Originally posted by rustyjames
We live in a world that we perceive through three dimensions. The world is not three dimensions.

I agree with the idea in theory, but the key there is to prove it. A simple declaration isn't any kind of proof. We may be like Flatlanders working in two dimensions where the third is something that looks strange and is difficult to understand. M-Theory calls for 11 dimensions and is mathematically supportable and a theory that is taken seriously by physics. But those dimensions are really tiny and it doesn't look like they will help us in this endeavor. Even when physicists discuss the possibility of other dimensions or branes, it looks like more of the same.

Originally posted by daskakik

Originally posted by schuyler
Thanks. I'm familiar with Monroe and the Monroe Institute. I even have some of his hemi-synch tapes. "Journeys out of the Body" is a real classic!

So no personal OBEs?

None. That would be an anecdotal, personal experience, which is good enough proof for a person, but not enough to formulate a theory. I know a guy who "died" of his wounds in Vietnam, had an OBE, and it changed his view of death. My own mother was a bit psycic and reported some very strange events in her life. I take all these accounts at face value. They amount to "evidence" of a sort, but they don't answer the fundamental question.

reply to post by schuyler


Heaven and hell is a state of mind.

Originally posted by schuyler
None. That would be an anecdotal, personal experience, which is good enough proof for a person, but not enough to formulate a theory. I know a guy who "died" of his wounds in Vietnam, had an OBE, and it changed his view of death. My own mother was a bit psycic and reported some very strange events in her life. I take all these accounts at face value. They amount to "evidence" of a sort, but they don't answer the fundamental question.

I have to come clean and say I focused more on the title and thought you were looking for personal confirmation.

Scientific proof? Depending on the true nature of reality it may be impossible to prove scientifically, even if true. I mean astrologists and cosmologists have to infer the existence of dark matter to account for their observations. So they are left guessing even in regards to the material universe. I don't think googlemaps will be giving you alternate routes and estimated times any time soon.

Originally posted by daskakik
Scientific proof? Depending on the true nature of reality it may be impossible to prove scientifically, even if true. I mean astrologists and cosmologists have to infer the existence of dark matter to account for their observations. So they are left guessing even in regards to the material universe. I don't think googlemaps will be giving you alternate routes and estimated times any time soon.

I agree that it might be a built-in quality that makes this impossible. That's where I have to come clean myself and say I have faith that it is explainable. If this were 1900 and we were having this conversation, people would be saying that Newton & Co. had things pretty well wrapped up. If I had broached the subjects of Schrodinger's Cat, Quantum Mechanics, String Theory, or Branes I pretty well would have lost all credibility--and any academic position I had.

You know how well that worked out. And today I see we're back at the same place. The physicists are saying that they're pretty smart guys and just about have this thing figured out. From Planck's Constant to Brane Theory they've explained the small and the large, and it looks like that elusive General Systems Theory is within reach.

You said that "cosmologists have to infer the existence of dark matter to account for their observations." The key point is that they have "observations" they feel must be accounted for. Their observations are very careful, and the pieces appear to be falling together like a jig saw puzzle waiting to be solved. The math is working.

We have observations of the 'other side,' too, but because they are personal and anecdotal, despite their remarkable similarity, they aren't accepted as valid. These observations are unacceptable first because they are personal and anecdotal, and second, because they fall outside the beliefs of reductionist scientists who believe such a place cannot exist. So they never get to the stage of trying to account for these observations.

Googlemaps is essentially a pre-Renaissance era tool. Ironically, the Vatican has the 15th century equivalent in its museum, a complete and detailed map of Italy, with every town and streanm carefully drawn in. Googlemaps is not intrinsically any different.

Your general state when you die (loving, appreciative, having lived a life of virtue, the circles of people you belong to,) determines where you magnetically gravitate to in the afterlife. Its as simple as that. Heed it.

No, there is nothing more to say on the subject. All added information is superflous.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Your general state when you die (loving, appreciative, having lived a life of virtue, the circles of people you belong to,) determines where you magnetically gravitate to in the afterlife. Its as simple as that. Heed it.

No, there is nothing more to say on the subject. All added information is superflous.

I put this statement into the dogmatic religious category. No proof whatsoever coupled with an intolerant inflexible attitude. That's kind of religion in a nutshell and precisely why science wants nothing to do with religion. And it's exactly the opposite of what I feel needs to happen if we are to make any progress forward on understanding Reality.

There is no longing in heaven so you will never find it unless you learn to mentally let go.