God and us.......

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Thank you for the thoughtful remarks! Can't say that I disagree with your analysis. It seems logical. I just don't know? I am not the only person on this rock who feels that way. There is certainly a natural order of things, and there is no denying that. Although, who, what, where, when, why, and how does it all happen? That is the million dollar question. As said earlier, there is a method to the madness. Unfortunately, our interpretation of that method is fraught with loose ends. Even in regards to science, religion, and spirituality. Perhaps, we may never know the answers, but it never hurts to think about it though.

reply to post by Jakes51


Of course it doesn't hurt. But something we must consider is that we're used to asking these questions about our human leaders. If something happens, we automatically think there's a reason. We think there's a purpose, an agenda, some scheme intended to take something from us for something else's benefit. These are questions we ask to decide whether we want to be mad or not, and if so, then how mad?

What is it just is? We may ask "why gravity", but we don't look for an agenda. We just want to know the laws behind it. But we don't look at "God" that way. There must be a human agenda, a human motive behind all these machinations.

If it's not human, why ask human questions? If it's not human, why assume there is a human answer? Why do we think that even if there is an answer, we'll be able to understand it? That's why all these answers we get, they are so utterly vague and pointless. They don't match the nature of what these answers describe. Something that is literally omniscient is unconscious, mentally stagnant. It's an automatic program that has every variable in place from the beginning until the end. It's an infinite sequence on autoplay. There's no NEED to be alive. This applies to omnipotence as well. Every single possibility out of an infinite number of possibilities has been considered in the blink of an eye, a trillion-segment course of action decided upon in an instant. Set all the parameters, save the file, execute. Take a coffee break and process the analysis when the sequence is complete.

That's what happens when something is omniscient and omnipotent. Our entire universe, from birth to death, fully programmed and scheduled, and gone in the blink of an eye. It's entirely conceivable that according to the Bible, this entire world went unnoticed except for some stray superbeings left over from previous experiments stopping by and screwing with the newbies for a while. Then they got bored because we were just too easy to screw with. We don't provide a challenge. You want war? Boom, done in a couple days. You want genocide? Boom, done in a few weeks. You want to be worshipped? Hell, that's a few minutes work. Nope, no challenges to be found here.

That's the reality of the Christian god. Realistically, you have two options:

One, the Bible is entirely accurate and this world is the .045 millisecond lifespan science experiment of a greater entity...

Two, the Bible is inaccurate and almost everything about it is patently false on the surface. There may be diamonds in the rough, but fundies are gonna have a bad day.

That's what we're looking at here. If you have any questions or objections, I'm more than willing to discuss it with you. If that's all, then let the discussion carry forward. I just wanted to make all the above clear to ATS.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I believe that there is enough supporting evidence to clarify evolution as fact.

Of course I have hope but I don't hope to go to a non existent heaven when I die. I hope to remain healthy, I hope to remain in employment, I hope my family are happy and healthy, I hope for the possible, not the ridiculous.

reply to post by MamaJ


If a person thinks something that is untrue then their thinking is flawed. Creationism is untrue, hence flawed.

If you take genesis word for word in the bible ie. earth created in a week then it simply didn't happen that way.

If you twist genesis to incorporate the big bang then you're disregarding elements of the bible, if you're gonna disregard some of it why not open your eyes and disregard the whole fairytale?

reply to post by GafferUK1981

I believe that there is enough supporting evidence to clarify evolution as fact.

Well, that's a very interesting answer. Coincidentally, Christians tell me the exact same thing about their god!

Of course I have hope but I don't hope to go to a non existent heaven when I die. I hope to remain healthy, I hope to remain in employment, I hope my family are happy and healthy, I hope for the possible, not the ridiculous.

What do you hope death will bring you? What are your hopes concerning an afterlife? Or do you just not dare to imagine?

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Death will not bring me anything, it will be the conclusion of my life, THE END.

I personally will not have an afterlife but my atoms will be reused, that's as close to an afterlife we have.

And by the way christians may claim to have evidence but can never provide any. I don't need to provide you any evidence of evolution, it will take you seconds searching yourself to find hard evidence. It's that easy.

reply to post by GafferUK1981

Death will not bring me anything, it will be the conclusion of my life, THE END.

I personally will not have an afterlife but my atoms will be reused, that's as close to an afterlife we have.

Are you speaking from personal experience, or is that the full extent of your imagination?

And by the way christians may claim to have evidence but can never provide any. I don't need to provide you any evidence of evolution, it will take you seconds searching yourself to find hard evidence. It's that easy.

I don't see you providing any evidence for the above claim, either.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Well I could imagine anything but it wouldn't make it true. That's all heaven is, it's the product of somebody's imagination that they have tried to pass on as a fact. I could imagine a night with Natalie Portman but it's not gonna happen, having said that there's still more chance than going to heaven as Natalie Portman exists. Scant consolation.

I am just being realistic, there is zero evidence of a god. No living thing on this earth could only exist by creation by a god. Research irreducible complexity.

Do you really want me to provide evidence of evolution? It's like asking me to prove that water is wet, it's just so obvious. Frankly I can't be bothered, it's so readily available.

reply to post by GafferUK1981

Well I could imagine anything but it wouldn't make it true. That's all heaven is, it's the product of somebody's imagination that they have tried to pass on as a fact. I could imagine a night with Natalie Portman but it's not gonna happen, having said that there's still more chance than going to heaven as Natalie Portman exists. Scant consolation.

Virtually everything you see around you is a result of someone daring to imagine something that didn't yet exist. Everything that we didn't create, we defined because we are curious enough to ask. Without imagination, where would we be today?

I am just being realistic, there is zero evidence of a god. No living thing on this earth could only exist by creation by a god. Research irreducible complexity.

Really? So everything just randomly fell into place despite odds of 1/10 to the 182nd power (I believe). Is that what you think happened? Just random chance?

Do you really want me to provide evidence of evolution? It's like asking me to prove that water is wet, it's just so obvious. Frankly I can't be bothered, it's so readily available.

I'm not asking you to prove evolution is possible, I am asking you to prove it's a fact. That everything we see today is a result of evolution. I want you to prove that it's not just a theory, but a concrete law.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Well evolution is the only theory with supporting evidence and the evidence provided is good for me.

Yes mans imagination is responsible for many inventions, including the invention of many gods, it still doesn't make them actually exist.

Your quoted odds seem very long but you have to consider the vast amount of time involved. I'd still take those odds any day against the odds of a god.

reply to post by GafferUK1981

Well evolution is the only theory with supporting evidence and the evidence provided is good for me.

You do realize how many questions have been left unanswered? This is proven every time a discovery is made. There is so much oohing and aahing over the implications that clearly, there's a lot left to be found.

Yes mans imagination is responsible for many inventions, including the invention of many gods, it still doesn't make them actually exist.

Apparently, your lack of imagination is more all-knowing than all of the world's top paid scientists' imaginations put together. I myself don't believe in a god, but I do believe in a divine law. You don't seem to believe in any force, conscious or otherwise, worthy of respect.

Your quoted odds seem very long but you have to consider the vast amount of time involved. I'd still take those odds any day against the odds of a god.

Time was taken into consideration.

www.mankinds-last-hope.org...

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Take a look at creationism, the answers are known to be incorrect, so why give it any credence.

Evolution may not be 100% complete but it's the best theory we have and like Richard Dawkins I call evolution a fact. You can see evolution in the fossil record, in embryos and in similar species in different regions.

Evolution is based on observations, it is not based on hope and desire like a god or some kind of entity.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Science is locked in on facts while the religious keep raising the bar on their beliefs.

(I really do think that modern scholarship and science point to evidence of something other than random chance.....but, I am also hanging by a thread onto hope that there is something more than just DNA, born, reproduce, die, etc.)

Like I've said often...I'm confused.

And this is why superstition still reigns.

Science is proving god, something must have created all this (but who created the creator), blah, blah, blah.

Look people, we were created by the Universe, and those are the rules we live by.
Belief in a god is purely faith and to say there IS a god is nothing but wishful thinking, when you people say 'IS' do you not wonder why you emphasize the 'IS'.
To say 'IS' is to say you 'KNOW', and you know what you people know about a god?
JACK FREAKIN' SQUAT!
'May Be' not 'IS' and for the benefit of believers, not 'IS NOT'.
We don't know, but don't say there 'IS', unless you have proof, and we would like to see that very much.
Thank You.

reply to post by GafferUK1981


[quotye] Take a look at creationism, the answers are known to be incorrect, so why give it any credence.

That VERSION of creationism. It's all in the perspective.

Evolution may not be 100% complete but it's the best theory we have and like Richard Dawkins I call evolution a fact. You can see evolution in the fossil record, in embryos and in similar species in different regions.

Oh, you call evolution a fact. Well, that just settles everything, doesn't it!

Evolution is based on observations, it is not based on hope and desire like a god or some kind of entity.

How many species have evolved since we've been intelligently observing the world? How many times have WE evolved?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
Virtually everything you see around you is a result of someone daring to imagine something that didn't yet exist. Everything that we didn't create, we defined because we are curious enough to ask. Without imagination, where would we be today?

And what exactly does that have to do with god?

Really? So everything just randomly fell into place despite odds of 1/10 to the 182nd power (I believe). Is that what you think happened? Just random chance?

I'd love to see your justification for those odds. Odds like that are impossible to calculate without complete knowledge of the universe, so by all means, show me where you got them and your mathematical process for getting the formula. People just make stuff up, I swear. The chances of a god that just happens to exist eternally (or an intelligence in the universe that created us) has odds greater than any evolution formula you can guess about. You call it random. I call it gravity.

I'm not asking you to prove evolution is possible, I am asking you to prove it's a fact. That everything we see today is a result of evolution. I want you to prove that it's not just a theory, but a concrete law.

Evolution IS a scientific theory. Theories are based on facts and evidence, look it up. They don't magically turn into laws when proven. Laws are measurements and formulas, not validated theories. Just look at gravity. It's both a law and theory.

You do realize how many questions have been left unanswered? This is proven every time a discovery is made. There is so much oohing and aahing over the implications that clearly, there's a lot left to be found.

Throwing god/higher intelligence / intelligent designer into the picture without any evidence, just brings up a million more questions.

Oh, you call evolution a fact. Well, that just settles everything, doesn't it!

No, 99% of all biologists and geneticists call it a fact. By definition a scientific theory is based on facts. So let me get this straight. It's not a fact, but it's based on them. Is that really your claim, or do you just not understand what a scientific theory is? Ask me questions about evolution if you don't understand. I'm very familiar with it and don't mind taking the time to help somebody learn.

How many species have evolved since we've been intelligently observing the world? How many times have WE evolved?

Evolution isn't something you measure with numbers (ie how many times have we evolved). It doesn't just suddenly happen. It goes slowly over time. We have indeed observed speciation several times, at least once in a lab. All creatures on earth are in a constant state of change, just like the earth itself. Genetic mutations happen and are proven to exist. Natural selection happens and is proven to exist. Small changes add up over time. Fill in the dots, it's not that complicated.

reply to post by Barcs


It's a strange situation when you're condascended because you subscribe to a scientific theory / fact that the respected scientific world subscribes to.

I don't believe in any god, I don't believe in anything unless there is at least some supporting evidence. Over the whole time that man has believed in a god no evidence has been provided. This is a very strong indicator that there is no god.

reply to post by Barcs

Originally posted by Barcs

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
Virtually everything you see around you is a result of someone daring to imagine something that didn't yet exist. Everything that we didn't create, we defined because we are curious enough to ask. Without imagination, where would we be today?

And what exactly does that have to do with god?

Strange things happen when you don't keep your imagination in a sealed box. Flowers kept in boxes don't grow. Ideas kept in boxed don't evolve. The more you keep in boxes, the less your understanding evolves.

Really? So everything just randomly fell into place despite odds of 1/10 to the 182nd power (I believe). Is that what you think happened? Just random chance?

I'd love to see your justification for those odds. Odds like that are impossible to calculate without complete knowledge of the universe, so by all means, show me where you got them and your mathematical process for getting the formula. People just make stuff up, I swear. The chances of a god that just happens to exist eternally (or an intelligence in the universe that created us) has odds greater than any evolution formula you can guess about. You call it random. I call it gravity.

I have never, during my time on ATS, claimed to believe in a conscious superpowerful anthropomorphic being. Remember me talking about the box? Ever since the physical expression of ideas, the speaking and writing and drawing of people to communicate with each other, we have set down a parameter. Vocal and artistic medias were organized and defined. And with each definition created to form a universal understanding of an immaterial idea, that idea was thrown into a box. Thousands of ideas thrown into boxes so we could trade them around and understand one another. What happens when you rip a flower from the earth and put it in a box? It doesn't grow anymore. It dies and it decays. It's a necessary sacrifice. But sometimes you have to go back to the source and pick a new flower. It's the same flower, but it is full of flavor and life from the original field. And sometimes, you find better flowers. Flowers that were allowed to evolve in their natural habitat, allowed to become more vivid and enticing. You have to allow ideas to evolve, because our understanding of the world is always evolving. What's the point of living in a world that is always changing, if you're always using the old understanding?

I am not Christian, and I am not atheist. As a number 11, I ride the fence in a lot of issues. I can see a lot of different sides and weight them critically. For these reasons, because I can see both sides of the fence, I can tell what you're missing. Throw the box away. Go back to the original field. That's why I don't like the word "god". It carries too much baggage, preconceptions and tradition...for the exact reasons listed above. If they're going to keep the same old understanding, it should be used purely as a deterministic adjective, like "good" and "evil". They can make a team of labels used to define how we ourselves personally look at the world. It is our view, our opinion, and it's just a means of expressing that. Like "I like chocolate ice cream."

As to the rest of your skeptical response, here is the research for the statistic I gave you.

www.mankinds-last-hope.org...

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Well I'm thirty one years old now pal so my imagination has outgrown imaginary friends.

You may not be a christian but you still deal in the same line of crap. The whole flower nonsense is something you would read from a christian in one of their vein attempts to confuse you into thinking there is no god.

All this ideas / imagination rubbish is getting tedious. Are you telling me only a person of faith can have ideas, I guess an atheist never invented anything useful?

reply to post by GafferUK1981

It's a strange situation when you're condascended because you subscribe to a scientific theory / fact that the respected scientific world subscribes to.

Need I remind you of how swiftly humans will ignore the truth in favor of a more convenient lie? Or perhaps it's simply a matter of perception.

I don't believe in any god, I don't believe in anything unless there is at least some supporting evidence. Over the whole time that man has believed in a god no evidence has been provided. This is a very strong indicator that there is no god.

I don't think there's a lack of evidence, so much as a lack of understanding. A lot of scientists believe in a divine force, but not a god. They have found evidence to suggest the presence of a cosmic force that influences all of reality. It's not a god, it's just a variable that displays intelligent tendencies. Or maybe just a highly perceptive nature. It's not proof, but it is certainly evidence.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Can you provide a link to this evidence?

Evolution is so far from a convenient lie that it is getting hard to take you seriously. Do you believe in evolution? How do you think homosapians came to be?