"God" Defined: The Search For Divinity - Part 2

Disclaimer: Take this thread for what it's worth to you, but I would ask that you keep an open mind. Remember, your personal experiences only define the world as you've encountered it, and what I'm about to explain has very little to do with what I've encountered in my personal life. Indeed, a vast majority of the occurrences that have helped to shape these conclusions are ignorant and independent of my existence. With that said, please read the entire post before replying. And finally, do not read with the intent to respond - read with the intent to understand.


Good day, ATS. I hope you're game for another session of philosophy and deep thinking, because I'm ready to deliver a truckload of my ruminations. This is stuff that I was discussing with a friend of mine this morning, and I felt I should share it. Considering how it's very closely related to one of my previous threads, I decided to make it an installment in what could potentially become a series of threads explaining my views and the world according to my understanding, for anyone who may be learning from what I have to say.

So, I'm back again with a (somewhat) new addition to my previous elaboration on humanity's search for divinity, how it's a symptom of our predicament as a species, and what our predicament is.

Let's recap: as I have established in the preceding thread regarding this subject, humanity's search for divinity, and its resultant claims to have found it, stem from our desperate struggle to abolish fear. I have stated numerous times that modern deities are largely hybrids of both who we are and who we want to be. Take the Christian god for example: it displays anthropomorphic characteristics that bear stark similarities to the leaders of old that have shaped past civilizations. Wise, demanding of service, promising of great fortune, and generally benevolent towards those who please him/her. Or, if we are disobedient...well, that goes without saying. As to the 'who we want to be' portion, "God" is also omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent...everything that would render fear obsolete. Who we are, and who we want to be. You could even say we're worshiping ourselves. Hasn't it been said that our bodies are temple, and that "God" is found within?

I also raised the point that our struggle to obtain this perfection was used in order to promote vanity, a trait that could easily be maneuvered for the profit of those in power. Vanity is easily controllable through the use of fear (terrorism) and therefore an excellent manipulation device.

And that's where I'm going to begin. Fear. Without fear, many of our material or aesthetic obsessions that plague today's society would be pointless. We wouldn't be afraid of being late for work, so we wouldn't mind walking. We wouldn't be afraid of leaving a bad impression, so we wouldn't dress up or comb our hair. All of the fears that motivate today's society would be gone, thereby leaving every superficial or supercilious activity a pointless one. But that's only one half of the equation.

As stated on the thread I've linked, there's also vanity. Fear creates a problem. Vanity creates a solution. There's lots of solutions to any one problem, but we want the one that works and keeps working, right? And we're encouraged by society and the government to practice vanity on a daily basis, because it forms the mentality that you will be served IF YOU SERVE. Push button, receive bacon. That kind of logic. Except the button is serving a higher up in order to get what you need to survive. But it isn't survival, it's vanity. A lot of the things we THINK we need to survive are completely unnecessary, but our vanity mandates it for our survival. And in order to get those things, we must do whatever we're told. It's the vanity trap. And it makes us feel good as long as we don't think too much about it. Or we're taught that it's just the way it is. Accept it. Fighting it only hurts you.

In fact, money is one form of this vanity that makes it very clear exactly how vanity works. You sell your integrity by being the slave to corporations or a firm or whatever business you work with. You are either a slave to the management, or a slave to the consumers. And you do it for money. And once you have that money, you are giving it straight back to the system from which it came almost as fast as you're making it. You wonder why money is so important? Because this nation is a business. It's a company. We are all union workers, demanding our rights, healthcare, justice, reform, all that stuff. And the government makes deals with us to keep us laboring for its precious vision of a perfect nation. And it all revolves around money. In fact, money is one of the most powerful motivators of corruption because money is what drives everything. If you have plenty of money, then you have plenty of power. That's why we're afraid of everyone who has a lot of money and is in a position where they can pull invisible strings and have any number of lower officials dance for them.

So we have fear, and we solve it with vanity. Vanity leads to inflated self-worth, which leads to greed, which leads to jealousy, which leads to spite, which leads to disdain, which leads to cruelty. You see it everywhere. But the question is, if vanity isn't the solution, what is?

Here's where I start picking on the political parties. Pay attention, and don't start thinking about your reply yet. I haven't explained the connection, so you have no idea what you're responding to. Please, let me explain my views. So, the political circle. Sorry, but you can't light a fire and put it out at the same time. Similarly, you can't step forward and remain in place also, which is what the two parties do when put together. Republican and democrat, conservative and liberal. The reason I bring this up is because...it's all about fear. Creating a problem and a solution.

before I go into this - have you ever heard of Realistic Conflict Theory? Creating the impression of a conflict just to pit people against one another, then let them help "create" a solution so they feel like they fixed it. But in reality, they only lay down a stepping stool to help the politicians get where they need to be. Essentially, the two parties are working together to keep us confused. And here's why.

Chaos creates order dissolves into chaos creates order. Yin and yang. These guys were pretty smart when they came up with that, because the nature of the universe is motion. The more violent or active the motion, the more pronounced the decay is, creating chaos. But eventually, the incompatibility of the elements within that motion causes a decrease in momentum, resulting in the chaos slowing down. Eventually, everything falls back into place - but not necessarily in the same configuration. Likewise, the political parties deliberately throw poo storms into the air to make a big fuss about it, then use the confusion to present an idea that seems clever at the time...only we don't get a look at the small print. And at the same time, problems are introduced that we, the people, are encouraged to vote upon. Create a solution, they say. Or we'll come up with a solution and you decide which ones you like. The democratic illusion. I'm sure you've seen the picture with the cows and the halls. But the two halls lead to the same slaughterhouse. The illusion of choice.

Meanwhile, these problems instill a fear in the people, and that fear is fixed by vanity.

"We're more deserving than those immigrants."

"We're the better country. Those Iraqis are terrorists, we should kill them all because we're better!"

"Give the rich more taxes because I can't afford the rent as it is, and I deserve a place to stay!"

"Give the poor more taxes because I want more money. I'm more deserving of it, you know!"

Vanity. Believing you are better or deserve more than someone else, and expending energy in that pursuit. But see, there's one other problem caused by our fear, and it brings us to the conservatives. This is just me saying, "Hey look, there's a leak over here. Maybe we should fix it." Not pointing fingers or blaming anyone, not trying to stir up the townspeople with their torches and pitchforks...I'm making a suggestion, and observation based in fact.

Again, read the next post of this thread before replying, please. There isn't too much more, I promise.

(Con't)

(Continued from previous post)

The conservative types are holding us back. As I said, the nature of the universe is motion. You see it everywhere in nature. Nature doesn't fight what it is, it just lets time take its toll. If it breaks down, it breaks down. If it lives, it lives. And if it mutates, there's a reason for it. But the conservatives say, "Let's stop in the middle of this flowing river because I don't know what's around the next bend."

If you hold onto a rock or a branch in the river long enough, that rock will erode or the branch will break. Then you're swept away again. You can't fight the river. And the reason we're going through so much chaos is because we're fighting the evolution of nature. We're fighting the flow, and the longer we fight, the longer the chaos lasts. Change is necessary for anything that involves motion, and ALL of our society is motion is one form or another. But the conservatives are intent upon restraining us, keeping us from progressing. They cling to traditions that are outdated, unspoken rules that inhibit us, ways of thinking that hinder our evolution. They are dragging their feet because they are afraid. Afraid of change. But change is necessary in order to stabilize. There will always be chaos, because chaos is necessary to restore order. Order will dissolve into chaos as energy goes awry, and that energy will stabilize in a new order. Trust the cosmic forces (whatever they are) to balance themselves out and keep us safe. Trust the nature of our world, and all the planes of existence that come along with, to be able to balance. We are resisting too much because we don't trust the universe.

Let there be motion...let there by change. Because without change, there is no motion. And without motion, we'll never go forward. We will sink. We will only extend chaos if we resist. The pain and the destruction will last longer and be more powerful. Let us accept the negative and let it wash out, pulling in the positive.

It's not the only way, but it is the best way. Have a wonderful and uplifting Sunday, ATS. I hope you learned something from my shared ruminations.

Thank you for your thread. Though I try to live without fear and let what may be, there is still that niggling doubt in the back of my mind. I still chase the wind, I am hoping for some calmer days ahead!

I have already found Divinity but I only could achieve it for a vary short period of time.

What seemed forever lasted under 1.5 seconds.

What I learned is Divinity is state that knows all, you don't need to take any of this stuff that we think is important from this planet that is physical or common knowledge. It all does not matter non of it in divinity all is accounted for there is no need to question or fear or think. It's a place of great clarity and understanding.

I can say Divinity can be substantiated in physical form on this planet I know so that is what I experiences.

All of this stuff that goes on in the world I mean physical reality, all of the every day stuff that we all engage in is meant to distract us from being in divinity.

There is only one way to test this and I would suspect most people would fail at doing it, it involves one removing
every memory of every day of every event in your present life and the removal of every memory of every past life in full before divinity can be reached.

Why for your memory's is what keeps you engaged in this reality and distracts you from reaching divinity.

It is there, but is anyone wiling to let go long enough to experience it.

There is a way but you will need to find it.

JS

reply to post by jsettica


That's good for you. My primary point here was that if we are to evolve in any way, we must accept the motion in life because if we resist motion, we prolong chaos.

reply to post by jsettica

There is a reason that you could only maintain that state of finding "Divinity" for only 1.5 seconds. You are still living. That divinity is perfection, which by definition must be static, in stasis, unmoving. We are atomic, particles in constant motion. I define life as motion.

all of the every day stuff that we all engage in is meant to distract us from being in divinity.

There is only one way to test this and I would suspect most people would fail at doing it, it involves one removing
every memory of every day of every event in your present life and the removal of every memory of every past life in full before divinity can be reached.

That every day stuff is the stuff of life. I did your experiment some years ago. When I "saw" the perfect stasis and was asked (or asked myself) where I could fit in, my answer was nowhere. The experiences, memories, accumulated sediment of interactions past, proud moments and regrets that I had sloughed off in the process, those were me. That's my self, my me. So I took my self back and lived.

Fortunately, I had had a prior experience in which I had seen the interconnectedness of everything. It's atomic. And the connections are through movement and interchange.

In a way I can say that I've seen the difference between a perfect God and a living God. I prefer the living God.

reply to post by pthena

That divinity is perfection, which by definition must be static, in stasis, unmoving. We are atomic, particles in constant motion. I define life as motion.

Anything that consists of matter must eventually change.

In a way I can say that I've seen the difference between a perfect God and a living God. I prefer the living God.

It is very difficult to draw the exact line between these two. It is good to see you have realized so much. I encourage further participation in this thread. Perhaps we can help the participants gain a deeper understanding of what I'm trying to say. Your own views are welcome, of course.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

It was a good idea for you to put links in your signature. I read your post on "Will You Change, if Jesus Is Found NOT To be Real?" thread and liked it, so I followed the link in the sig.

It is very difficult to draw the exact line between these two.

From Part 1 of your current series, "Again, any communicate idea is man-made. With that communication comes a definition, and that definition is a mobile impression of a explicit knowledge." Reality is so multidimensional while communication is so linear (two dimensioned).

In that thread also is a definition of God: "The modern definition is " omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, benevolent, merciful, etc. I don't agree with this, but wait!"" So I include in that modern definition Unchanging, which can also be stated as Perfect.

All those attributes sound good, but, there is no way for them to all apply. Another thing we require is a participatory God, Even if only a fond regard; that requires motion ( as in: "I was emotionally moved by ...") An unchanging God cannot be moved.

How to reconcile all the attributes? I don't. As my basic creation myth (upon which my religion is based) I imagine God the Perfect Unchanging choosing to live. He became atomic (big bang) He died so as to live. The universe is the result. The Unchanging Perfect no longer exists. Is that Love? Perhaps. Omnipresence is maintained at the expense of all the other omnis. That seems a rather clear line drawn. To me at least, but I've got a silly made up religion.

(This probably should have been posted in your Part I thread. Oh well)

Interesting, but I have one fundamental problem with the whole thing. If humans created religion purely out of fear, why would their religions be so damn scary and oppressive? Wouldn't they want to create something happy and nice, that made them relax?

It's kind of hard to pin down exactly why someone would make up a religion. The simplest answer may be that they had a lot of questions, or wanted to be able to control people more efficiently. At any rate, we'll probably never know for sure.

reply to post by mysteriousmysteries

Interesting, but I have one fundamental problem with the whole thing. If humans created religion purely out of fear, why would their religions be so damn scary and oppressive? Wouldn't they want to create something happy and nice, that made them relax?

Thanks for asking! That's a very good question, actually. See, there's two parts: the people running the religion, and the people following the religion.

The people running the religion, especially in the early days of religion, were afraid of political intrigue and societal chaos and all the stuff that could easily get a person killed without any form of justice to be seen afterward. So they need a big bad wolf - "Satan". This is the guy who claims you if you do anything wrong. And then "God", who will ensure that the big bad wolf gets you if you do anything wrong. But he'll save you as long as you follow these simple instructions, which just happen to be keeping the mortal leaders safe. And he comes with a complete backstory that answers all those questions people had no answers to. In those days, education was the same as power. So having the answer to everything, even power of illness, prosperity, and harvest, was like having a throne and crown, endorsed by "the big man upstairs".

The people following the religion are constantly terrified of living just a few years and then dying and never living again. They are afraid of never having the chance to be happy, afraid of bad people never getting what they deserve, afraid of never having a reason for hope, and afraid of being utterly meaningless in totality. So they assign their fate to "God" and their flaws to "Satan", leaving them free to live a peaceful life.

You asked about "scary and oppressive". Well, that's to make sure people think twice about not conforming to standards. But remember, you get the gift of immortality if you accept the authority of the religious figure and follow all the rules given to you. This person promises you that everything will be okay. You really don't have a choice, do you? Either you believe and you are saved, or you don't believe and nothing has meaning because science wasn't invented yet.

It's kind of hard to pin down exactly why someone would make up a religion. The simplest answer may be that they had a lot of questions, or wanted to be able to control people more efficiently. At any rate, we'll probably never know for sure.

Watch "The Book of Eli". It provides a perfect example of how religion can be used for power instead of truth.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


That all makes sense, I guess I was just stuck on the fact that you said man created religion to abolish fear, and it seems to have done the opposite. But I agree with everything you've just said, for sure.

Truly a thought-provoking post. VERY relevant to my current thought processes.

Star and Flag for you!