Help ATS with a contribution via PayPal:
learn more

Why do PC Liberals hate/deny genetics so much?

page: 3
12
<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in

join

posted on Oct, 26 2012 @ 09:30 PM
link   

Originally posted by kimish
9/10 posters on this thread are clouded with the PC train of thought.

Maybe the OP didn't put into context correctly but the OP is right. You are all on the internet so therefore you have the tools such as a search engine to research what the OP is speaking about.

On about the IQ and races; granted IQ isn't a set in stone way to recognize intelligence, per se but many statitistics from around the world show the same correlation. The same correlation can be found with children that are adopted. For example, If a Negroid was adopted, from birth, by an East Asian family that child would still score lower on the IQ charts for East Asians but a tad higher for Negroids raised by their own. So, upbringing does play a role, no doubt, but genetics is far more powerful.

As I stated, You all have access to search engines and don't just click on 2 or 3 links. Do a thorough study and You will see that the OP is right.

BTW, Rushton had decades of scientifically proof to back up his "theories", to argue with that would be biased.


Ummm...no. Mathematically speaking, OP is not correct. See my earlier post for the reasons why.




posted on Oct, 26 2012 @ 09:40 PM
link   

Originally posted by kimish
I just want to add one thing to the conversation, hormone levels are a key proponent in this issue. Stats world wide of various races and social upbringings show an Ironic correlation. Prove me wrong and I will stand corrected.


As in hormone levels show an increase or decrease in IQ? Or is this sentence suppose to be pointed towards something else?



posted on Oct, 26 2012 @ 10:44 PM
link   
There was a study conducted and a book written on the subject which revealed that IQ in blacks was one standard deviation lower than that of whites in the US.

Excerpt from The Bell Curve 1994


"Inequality of endowments, including intelligence, is a reality. Trying to pretend that inequality does not really exist has led to disaster. Trying to eradicate inequality with artificially manufactured outcomes has led to disaster. It is time for America once again to try living with inequality, as life is lived: understanding that each human being has strengths and weaknesses, qualities we admire and qualities we do not admire, competencies and incompetencies, assets and debits; that the success of each human life is not measured externally but internally; that all of the rewards we can confer on each other, the most precious is a place as a valued fellow citizen." (pp 551-552)


This was a very controversial book of course and regardless of its merit took a lot of flak.

One has to wonder though…

Could it possibly be the 800lb gorilla in the room no one wants to acknowledge? The races on the planet are different not only in physical appearance but in their mental make-up and ability - be it intellect, drive and or ability to succeed as a group. Can the disparity really all be socio-economic?

Whatever you want to call it there is a clear and glaring disparity in the relative successes of the different racial groups. There are certain and glaring differences in the willingness of different races to surrender the individual to the greater good, their sexual habits, spending vs. saving and marital commitments along with the role of fatherhood. This transcends geography and boarders.

I am neither a social scientist, economist, nor an anthropologist but there has to be some reason that even in America after 3-4 generations now of affirmative action and preferential treatment that the black population has not improved their overall social success rate - quite the opposite; it is in decline. I do not accept the reason being all outside factors like racism and economic oppression and other crap. It has to come from somewhere inside as well.

More crime, less education, more teen births, more addiction and almost every other mark of failure in a culture have increased despite all the favorable "leg-up" type programs to break the cycle. The programs have lead to dependence not independence.

Along with intelligence there are many factors in a groups’ success. There has been some research done in the past on the racial predispositions to certain social norms and mental ability, nature vs. nurture and other kinds of studies but regardless of the caliber of the study the people just won’t hear it for some reason.

Most rational minded academics avoid the issue for fear of being branded a racist for even posing the question. They fear being defunded, blackballed and ridiculed based on emotion and politics rather than science.

What strikes me as odd is that any rational person is more than willing to accept at face value that there are real genetic differences between various races of the human species, as a matter of fact the very definitions of race are those very differences. Most accept a genetic difference in musculature, fast twitch and slow twitch muscles a difference in aerobic and anaerobic ability and so on with regard to physical ability in the different races, yet intellectually, or behaviorally these same people insist any differences must be simply nurture rather than nature.

The mere implication or suggestion of the same regarding any perceived differences in mental ability (intelligence) or social success must be related to outside factors not genetics. This seems absurd to me.

Con't
edit on 26/10/2012 by Golf66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 26 2012 @ 10:45 PM
link   
(Con't)

I remember well as I stated above the Bell Curve and the controversy it generated. There is some compelling data in that book to support real genetic predisposition towards IQ in different races. It went from ridiculed, to challenged to forgotten and ignored in a short span of time.

There will never be a reasonable and scientific study on the issue because I fear no one really wants to know the truth. For many the fear is that the results won't fit their perceptions that we are all simply the same and nurture is the only factor in intelligence because that would crash the welfare, entitlement and affirmative action state of our current society. Others can't or won't accept that any real genetic difference can exist in intellect because they feel it would disenfranchise a race of human beings by discouraging them to try and excel.
Some, albeit a minority who are perhaps real racists fear the opposite, that there would be no difference and they would no longer be able to feel superior on hyperbole alone.

Then there are those who fear the truth for whatever reason.

Unfortunately most people will just have a visceral programmed response to even an objective study of the relative success of different racial groups with “we are all human” and charging whomever the person posing the question with racism…because it must be racism or in the case of Africa Colonialism that is keeping other races “down”. Could it just be a genetic predisposition to tribalism and inferior intellect? No, has to be something else…despite glaring evidence to the contrary.

Until we reach the point in science where we can just report the facts without emotion and political shenanigans no viable or credible study will be done into the genetics of intelligence in different

Until we reach the point in science where we can just report the facts without emotion and political shenanigans no viable or credible study will be done into the genetics of intelligence in different races of the human species.

The racial issue is a touchy one especially in America – Eric Rush has a great book out called Negrophillia. It is a good study of how in America race relations and the institutional indoctrination of our kids in school and through mass media to more favorably view black culture. He also opines that this idolization of this culture is leading to an America that idolizes criminals, deadbeat dads, welfare dependency and drug use. This can drag the country nowhere but down.

We all my be human but in 5000+ years of recorded History one thing has become clear – there are clear and real differences in the relative societal success rates of different racial groups. There has to be more to it than victimhood and poverty.

It is time someone did some real objective research into the topic and quite beating around the bush…

We may never actually have the truth until someone investigates this on the genetic level - but until we leave the emotion of race behind this will never happen. I think too many people are afraid of what might actually come to be discovered.



posted on Oct, 26 2012 @ 11:15 PM
link   

Originally posted by Deadlychicken

Originally posted by kimish
reply to post by Deadlychicken
 


Wrong on all of your rebuttals. Google is your friend. But, because of this being a PC issue, It will take more than just 3 or 4 links to come up with an accurate conclusion. Check out like 20 links, draw an unbiased conclusion from what you have learned and then respond back.

~What would Jesus do?~


Could you please tell me what was wrong with my view of the experiences I've had in my life?


I've never once questioned your experiences in life. Show me where I did so or else you're pleading the 5th to being biased.



posted on Oct, 27 2012 @ 12:04 AM
link   
reply to post by WWu777
 


I find it very strange that you think it is "PC Liberals" who think that way. I know that pretty much everything in the human experience is a combination of genetics and environment. Some things are more heavily influenced by obe or the other. For example, heart disease may "run in the family", but if you're the one in the family who doesn't live off of McD's, margarine, corn syrup and Cheetos, and instead eats real meat, non-toxic fruits and vegetables, etc...there's a damn good chance, even with genetics favoring heart disease, that you might be the first of your line to see 55 years old.

That's just a single example, but anyone with even a moderate IQ and powers of observation can tell you that behavioral, physical, and mental traits are always some combination of genetics and environment.

Personally, I've never run into anyone who thinks its all one or the other. If they do exist, I find it hard to believe they would be "PC Liberals", seeing as so-called "liberals" generally are among the more intelligent portion of our population - for the record, I despise "liberals." (I also despise "conservatives")

I just don't buy that the few people who are that out of touch with what most of mainstream society is well-aware of regarding genetics amd environment are segmented by any particular political beliefs.

I will give you that people who are not fans of David Duke, or Adolf Hitler, probably don't acknowledge the measured average differences in IQ between races, and I would posit that is because those people don't want to presume anything about an individual based on measurements of a "group" they belong to, so parts of your OP have merit, as far as that goes.



posted on Oct, 27 2012 @ 01:19 AM
link   
Until we reach the point in science where we can just report the facts without emotion and political shenanigans no viable or credible study will be done into the genetics of intelligence in different races of the human species.

The racial issue is a touchy one especially in America – Eric Rush has a great book out called Negrophillia. It is a good study of how in America race relations and the institutional indoctrination of our kids in school and through mass media to more favorably view black culture. He also opines that this idolization of this culture is leading to an America that idolizes criminals, deadbeat dads, welfare dependency and drug use. This can drag the country nowhere but down.

We all my be human but in 5000+ years of recorded History one thing has become clear – there are clear and real differences in the relative societal success rates of different racial groups. There has to be more to it than victimhood and poverty.

It is time someone did some real objective research into the topic and quite beating around the bush…

We may never actually have the truth until someone investigates this on the genetic level - but until we leave the emotion of race behind this will never happen. I think too many people are afraid of what might actually come to be discovered.



MY OBSERVATIONS ON YOUR POST -

Your entire diatribe is so totally un-PC.
And so painfully truthfully accurate.

IMO
edit on 10/27/2012 by DENBY because: splchk



posted on Oct, 27 2012 @ 01:27 AM
link   

Originally posted by kimish

Originally posted by Deadlychicken

Originally posted by kimish
reply to post by Deadlychicken
 


Wrong on all of your rebuttals. Google is your friend. But, because of this being a PC issue, It will take more than just 3 or 4 links to come up with an accurate conclusion. Check out like 20 links, draw an unbiased conclusion from what you have learned and then respond back.

~What would Jesus do?~


Could you please tell me what was wrong with my view of the experiences I've had in my life?


I've never once questioned your experiences in life. Show me where I did so or else you're pleading the 5th to being biased.


I italicised and bolded the statement where you said I was wrong. Where was my bias in my statements? I was requesting that you actually show where my logic was flawed and in what way.



posted on Oct, 27 2012 @ 01:28 AM
link   
POINT OF ORDER

Identical Twins - One fertilized egg splits into two. Always 2 boys or 2 girls.

Fraternal Twins - Two seperate eggs fertilized by two seperate sperma. 2 boys 2 girls or 1 of each.



posted on Oct, 27 2012 @ 01:44 AM
link   

Originally posted by Deadlychicken

Originally posted by kimish

Originally posted by Deadlychicken

Originally posted by kimish
reply to post by Deadlychicken
 


Wrong on all of your rebuttals. Google is your friend. But, because of this being a PC issue, It will take more than just 3 or 4 links to come up with an accurate conclusion. Check out like 20 links, draw an unbiased conclusion from what you have learned and then respond back.

~What would Jesus do?~


Could you please tell me what was wrong with my view of the experiences I've had in my life?


I've never once questioned your experiences in life. Show me where I did so or else you're pleading the 5th to being biased.


I italicised and bolded the statement where you said I was wrong. Where was my bias in my statements? I was requesting that you actually show where my logic was flawed and in what way.


With all due respect nothing that you have posted is neither italicized or in bold font. Henceforth you are merely speaking on emotion and not logic.

If you could, please at least link me or copy and paste where I questioned your experiences in life. Please and thank you.



posted on Oct, 27 2012 @ 01:46 AM
link   
The reality is that you are never going to be able to reason with brainwashed people when they are the product of more than half a century of indoctrination. Their pathologically altruistic egos have been honed to maintain an ideologically subversive concept and the hypocrisy in their reasoning cannot be broken. The will come up with nonsense about being inbred, the blessing of diversity, and do this whilst lamenting about the loss of culture and destruction of indigenous peoples. That is why you could feign a charity for any so called minority group and asks a PC person for donations and they will think that you are a vaunted saint.. but if you change the charity to being for whites you will draw their absolute ire. This description excludes those whom are simply ambivalent or too fearful to be concerned with anything controversial.

Every U.S. state has governmental offices set up for "minorities" yet never would these bleeding heart geniuses ever express social outrage over the discrimination of the "majority". These engineered PC people are more indoctrinated by propaganda than any World War II German ever was and they are a relentless cult when it comes to doing their duty as social police. This isn't as much about race as it is about completely destroying the sovereignty of a people and systematically eliminating them in the process. The PC white people cannot "feel" any other way and their reasoning will always follow their emotional compulsion.

“...the people who graduated in the 60's, dropouts or half-baked intellectuals, are now occupying the positions of power in the government, civil service, business, mass media, and educational systems. You are stuck with them. You can't get through to them. They are contaminated. They are programmed to think and react to certain stimuli in a certain pattern [alluding to Pavlov]. You cannot change their mind even if you expose them to authentic information. Even if you prove that white is white and black is black, you still can not change the basic perception and the logic of behavior...A person who was demoralized is unable to assess true information. The facts tell nothing to him, even if I shower him with information, with authentic proof, with documents and pictures. ...he will refuse to believe it.... That's the tragedy of the situation of demoralization.” -- Yuri Beznemov, former KGB agent on Ideological Subversion

"...The unabated influx of ... immigrants to our land, which has the effect of overwhelming our distinct cultural and religious identity and reducing my people to an insignificant minority in their own country, amounts to a policy of cultural genocide" - The Dalai Lama, Winner of the 1989 Nobel Peace Prize, speaking in Geneva on March 10, 1997.

DEMOCIDE:
“The objectives of such a plan of democide include the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups.

The grand design in all of this never had anything to do with equality. People want to be opinionated, feel morally righteous, and still fall within the acceptable social constraints. The Realization that you can demoralize and destroy a nation while convincing them that they are living in paradise was a great breakthrough for the ruling elite.

"Every child in America entering school at the age of five is mentally ill because he comes to school with certain allegiances to our founding fathers, toward our elected officials, toward his parents, toward a belief in a supernatural being, and toward the sovereignty of this nation as a separate entity. It is up to you as teachers to make all of these sick children well -- by creating the international child of the future." Dr. Chester M. Pierce, Professor of Education at Harvard, addressing the Association for Childhood Education International in April,1972
(How Hitleresque)

Gramscian-Hegelian world view — group-based morality, or the idea that what is moral is what serves the interests of “oppressed” or “marginalized” ethnic, racial, and gender groups.

Comanche Dr. David Yeagley, a conservative Native American intellectual created BadEagle.com . From The Hated White Male “The white male is the most hated creature on earth. Specifically, the middle-aged, white, Western male, and particularly the American white male, is the most despised, condemned, and denigrated human being in the world.”


The origins of "political correctness" or "cultural Marxism" can be found in the early parts of the 20th century from the Frankfurt School, which was the headquarters for the Communists scheming in Germany. “A deteriorating society is exactly what political correctness strives for.”



posted on Oct, 27 2012 @ 02:08 AM
link   
Excerpt from The Bell Curve 1994


"Inequality of endowments, including intelligence, is a reality. Trying to pretend that inequality does not really exist has led to disaster. Trying to eradicate inequality with artificially manufactured outcomes has led to disaster. It is time for America once again to try living with inequality, as life is lived: understanding that each human being has strengths and weaknesses, qualities we admire and qualities we do not admire, competencies and incompetencies, assets and debits; that the success of each human life is not measured externally but internally; that all of the rewards we can confer on each other, the most precious is a place as a valued fellow citizen." (pp 551-552)



I would interpret this not as "we have different subspecies within the human race that all have differences" but as we all have differences as individuals.


Whatever you want to call it there is a clear and glaring disparity in the relative successes of the different racial groups. There are certain and glaring differences in the willingness of different races to surrender the individual to the greater good, their sexual habits, spending vs. saving and marital commitments along with the role of fatherhood. This transcends geography and boarders.


I've seen awesome parents of every creed and color imaginable. I have also seen the exact opposite of individuals. To say its a racial differentiation that predetermines ones parental abilities is completely wrong in every sense and utterly ignorant of history.


I am neither a social scientist, economist, nor an anthropologist but there has to be some reason that even in America after 3-4 generations now of affirmative action and preferential treatment that the black population has not improved their overall social success rate - quite the opposite; it is in decline. I do not accept the reason being all outside factors like racism and economic oppression and other crap. It has to come from somewhere inside as well.


I would argue the exact opposite. Look at the mainstream publicised "successful" black men and women of today. Most of them are rappers and sports stars. What intellectual value do these "jobs" contribute to society? The thing is its not just "black" children that are looking up to these people either, its every child nowadays because these are the people that are making the most money in our country, and money is the main way we measure success. Now aren't their successful blacks that do contribute to society? Of course. Neil deGrasse Tyson is one of my favorite speakers of all time and a brilliant man but unless you follow NASA you've probably never heard of him.


More crime, less education, more teen births, more addiction and almost every other mark of failure in a culture have increased despite all the favorable "leg-up" type programs to break the cycle. The programs have lead to dependence not independence.


This is big city life period. There's less education because the number of children is higher in the classrooms compared to the teachers which means each kid gets less help when needed. I have also had the pleasure of serving in the United States Marine Corps with young men and women from big cities in which this was the common theme. It's all the people and their upbringing. If you are taught to make something of your life and have seen success come from people in your particular situation there's a higher chance of you also doing the same, whereas when everyone around you is nothing but deadbeat drug addicts and have done nothing with their lives, your chances of ending up the same way are much higher.


What strikes me as odd is that any rational person is more than willing to accept at face value that there are real genetic differences between various races of the human species, as a matter of fact the very definitions of race are those very differences. Most accept a genetic difference in musculature, fast twitch and slow twitch muscles a difference in aerobic and anaerobic ability and so on with regard to physical ability in the different races, yet intellectually, or behaviorally these same people insist any differences must be simply nurture rather than nature.


The bolded words are what strike me as odd being that there is no discernible difference common among all of one "ethnicity" that you keep trying to lable as a separate race from the human race. There is no one genetic factor among all black people, or white people, or Chinese, or Brazilian, or Russian, or any other idea of some sort of subspecies that is common among all those people and able to make a discernible genetic difference.
edit on 27-10-2012 by Deadlychicken because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 27 2012 @ 02:14 AM
link   


With all due respect nothing that you have posted is neither italicized or in bold font. Henceforth you are merely speaking on emotion and not logic.

If you could, please at least link me or copy and paste where I questioned your experiences in life. Please and thank you.




Wrong on all of your rebuttals. Google is your friend. But, because of this being a PC issue, It will take more than just 3 or 4 links to come up with an accurate conclusion. Check out like 20 links, draw an unbiased conclusion from what you have learned and then respond back.


This statement you said that I was wrong on my conclusions. Now could you please tell me where the flaw was in my logic, or would you like me to quote the whole conversation over?



posted on Oct, 27 2012 @ 02:32 AM
link   
reply to post by Deadlychicken
 


...And where I quoted your experiences in life?

You're pretty logical in your views but your emotions kind of have a bearing on your thought process.



posted on Oct, 27 2012 @ 03:20 AM
link   

Originally posted by kimish
reply to post by Deadlychicken
 


...And where I quoted your experiences in life?

You're pretty logical in your views but your emotions kind of have a bearing on your thought process.


My rebuttals were partially from my own personal experiences. You said I was wrong in my logic; I continue to ask how, if not for the conversation's sake but for my own sake of personal enlightenment.



posted on Oct, 27 2012 @ 03:24 AM
link   

Originally posted by Deadlychicken


"The bolded words are what strike me as odd being that there is no discernible difference common among all of one "ethnicity" that you keep trying to lable as a separate race from the human race. There is no one genetic factor among all black people, or white people, or Chinese, or Brazilian, or Russian, or any other idea of some sort of subspecies that is common among all those people and able to make a discernible genetic difference."


Your whole post is well put. I have to wonder what is considered a "discernible genetic difference". Since living things do not come with labels there is a certain arbitrariness to all taxonomic classification. Could not thousands of races be created based on specific sets of genetic differences or even the propensity for these differences in existing sets of people? Race existed before any understanding of genetics existed and was used in reference to different types of groupings (e.g. a race of poets). I'm guessing that there is a good amount they still don't know and possibly don't want to know in regards to this. I have not seen a doctor yet that didn't ask for my race when filling out my health history. Anthropologist appreciate groups when it comes to primitive peoples but I wonder how much attention has been given to the effects on the psychology of more modern humans that have been steered away into the more all-inclusive mindset. Maybe the question should be what is going to be the actual end result of all this globalism and social engineering as opposed to the idealistic Utopian view that is usually given?

According to the World Health Organization, by 2020 depression is expected to be a leading cause of disability worldwide, second only to cardiovascular disease. Is the human brain well adapted for coping in a world where merits and efforts are diffused over the entire population of a planet in which it has no control over? Brave New World indeed.
edit on 27-10-2012 by Wotaneyed because: deleted word
edit on 27-10-2012 by Wotaneyed because: changed wording
edit on 27-10-2012 by Wotaneyed because: deleted an a



posted on Oct, 27 2012 @ 04:09 AM
link   
edit on 27-10-2012 by FractalChaos13242017 because: ...



posted on Oct, 27 2012 @ 04:26 AM
link   

Originally posted by MrDesolate
reply to post by WWu777
 


I'll play.

What exactly is the point you're trying to make? What practical benefit would come from your being correct, making the giant and false assumption that you are?

This is what I would like to know. What good do you think will come of this OP? Lets take a brief trip to Absurdington for a moment (many people on ATS love this town) and assume that OP is right and there are differences in cognitive ability between races. What good will this information do? Maybe OP has been having wet dreams about living in a segregated society where people are divided in accordance with their heritage? Maybe OP is pushing some kind of xenophobic agenda? Maybe OP shouldn't be residing in North America if he/she doesn't like the idea of people with different backgrounds living amongst each other, because I really doubt anything is going to change just because a closet stormfront member is suffering from a bout of rustled jimmies.


Also, assuming this pseudoscience were true, would you really want it to be openly announced to the public? Consider this scenario: A group of scientists hold a press conference and announce to the world that some races are intellectually superior to others. Would you be willing to go out into the streets and help stop the mass riots that would likely ensue? No? I didn't think so. If you are pushing an agenda, you have to be responsible to clean up any mess that would result from it, and believe me, it would turn into a gale force 12 sh**storm.



posted on Oct, 27 2012 @ 05:05 AM
link   
reply to post by WWu777
 


Straw man alert. Of course TeaBags to stupid to know what that is.



posted on Oct, 27 2012 @ 07:54 AM
link   
Originally posted by Xaphan

What exactly is the point you're trying to make? What practical benefit would come from your being correct, making the giant and false assumption that you are?

For one, that old argument of equality could no longer be used for unequal treatment.


Maybe OP has been having wet dreams about living in a segregated society where people are divided in accordance with their heritage? Maybe OP is pushing some kind of xenophobic agenda? Maybe OP shouldn't be residing in North America if he/she doesn't like the idea of people with different backgrounds living amongst each other, because I really doubt anything is going to change just because a closet stormfront member is suffering from a bout of rustled jimmies."

I agree totally, the OP must change his soiled britches every morning! He's definitely a stormfront member which we should all presume to be a great evil which can be easily discredited. Maybe we can take his children away from him to be indoctrinated in public schools- he has no business with them. We could shave the little buggers' hair off, force them to speak a new language, make them join the Obama youth, and then force them to practice a new more diverse kind of religion. Those sick little critters are so obviously guilty.


Also, assuming this pseudoscience were true, would you really want it to be openly announced to the public?"

Absolutely NOT! We must continue to rewrite history, skew science, and practice our socially acceptable genocide in secret! How could we continue to control, steal from, and denigrate them otherwise?


"Consider this scenario: A group of scientists hold a press conference and announce to the world that some races are intellectually superior to others. Would you be willing to go out into the streets and help stop the mass riots that would likely ensue? No? I didn't think so. If you are pushing an agenda, you have to be responsible to clean up any mess that would result from it, and believe me, it would turn into a gale force 12 sh**storm."

I totally believe you bro, a total global meltdown. I'm also picturing earthquakes, tornadoes, and the sun exploding. We need your Homer Simpson picture to help save the planet!



"They serve a purpose only at the stage of destabilization of a nation. For example, your leftists in the United States: all these professors and all these beautiful civil rights defenders. They are instrumental in the process of the subversion only to destabilize a nation. When their job is completed, they are not needed any more. They know too much." --Yuri Beznemov, former KGB agent

"The middle-aged white male—this is the victim of modernity. All that he has accomplished is cursed. Freedom itself is damned. The morally worthless Communist makes his way by words. His lying pen is mightier than the honest sword." --David Yeagley, the great grandson of Comanche leader Bad Eagle

edit on 27-10-2012 by Wotaneyed because: Messin wit da color






top topics



 
12
<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in

join