Lost Maritime Cultures: China and the Pacific

Just wanted to thank everyone who has participated so far.

This has been an interesting thread thus far.

reply to post by AuranVector


For an interesting read on the a aboriginal peoples of se asia, I suggest
www.andaman.org...
It is an awsome resource for anthropology and archeology of the pacific basin,
And early American peoples as well.

Another great thread Slayer We want to assume that there was large scale contact or there was no contact. I think that for the most part through out history sporadic contact has occurred. We got those red headed mummies in China with what seemed to be tartans? Humans have always had explorers going where they could walk, sail or what ever to get there. Our ancestors are clever [those knot charts are a great example] and came up with the means to learn things that we assume required high tech toys to learn. Most surviving relics we lack context to and don't comprehend the why's.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
Just wanted to thank everyone who has participated so far.

This has been an interesting thread thus far.

No thank you ,

Here's an interest snippet for everyone's reading,

The Kuroshio (“Black Current,” named after the dark color it lends the horizon when viewed from the shore) is the Pacific Ocean’s answer to the Atlantic’s Gulf Stream. More than twenty-two hundred years ago the Chinese called the Kuroshio by the prescient name Wei-Lu, the current to “a world in the east from which no man has ever returned.” Surging up from Taiwan, fat with warm tropic water, it arcs past Japan and Southeast Alaska and down the northwest coast. At the same time, cool, powerful offshore winds, the equivalent of Atlantic America’s Arctic blasts, race down from Siberia, pushing boats and other flotsam out into the Kuroshio.

The source, www.smithsonianmag.com...

The article mostly talks about cast aways but my favorite part is the part about the jomon fleeing a volcano and possibly making land fall in various places in the new world.

. The doyen of this faction is Betty Meggers, an eminent anthropologist at the Smithsonian Institution, who has advanced this inquiry for more than fifty years despite fierce resistance from her colleagues. In 1966, she published an authoritative account in Scientific American of how Japanese mariners drifted to Ecuador five thousand years ago. Since then she’s uncovered evidence—DNA, viruses that could only have originated in Japan, and pottery techniques found nowhere else—suggesting that ancient Japanese influence also reached Central America, California, Ecuador, and Bolivia.

And

About sixty-three hundred years ago, a flyspeck island off southern Kyushu named Kikai exploded with a force that would dwarf all the more famous volcanoes that have since erupted around the world. Kikai weighed in at 7 on the standard volcanic explosivity index (VEI), which runs from 1 to 8, VEI 8 being reserved for the sort of mega-eruptions that cause ice ages and mass extinctions. It ejected twenty-four cubic miles of dirt, rock, and dust into the air, about nine times as much as Krakatoa in 1883, twenty-four times as much as Mount St. Helens in 1980, and forty times as much as the eruption of Vesuvius in AD 79 that destroyed Pompeii and Herculaneum.

The tsunamis triggered by Kikai obliterated coastal towns. The eruption’s spew was enough to blanket up to 18 million square miles of land and sea. Dust and ash several feet thick smothered the fertile soil, rendering southern Japan uninhabitable for two centuries. Unable to farm, the Jomon set out for other shores in what Betty Meggers calls “the Jomon Exodus.” And that was where a second mighty phenomenon came into play

The Saboba Indians of the tehachapi mtns of California have this tale

"Before my people came here they lived far, far away in the land that is in the heart of the Setting Sun. But Siwash, our great God, told Uuyot, the warrior captain of my people, that we must come away from this land and sail away and away in a direction that he would give us. Under Uuyot's orders my people built big boats and then with Siwash himself leading them, and with Uuyot as captain, they launched these into the ocean and rowed away from the shore. There was no light on the ocean, Everything was covered with a dark fog, and it was only by singing as they rowed that the boats were enabled to keep together.

"It was still dark and foggy when the boats landed on the shores of this land, and my ancestors groped about in the darkness, wondering why they had been brought hither. Then, suddenly, the heavens opened, and lightnings flashed and thunders roared and rains fell, and a great earthquake shook all
the earth. Indeed, all the elements of the earth, ocean, and heaven, seemed to be mixed up together, and,

The saboba creation myth
www.sacred-texts.com...

The Indians of yosemite have th is statement

Innumerable moons and snows have passed since the Great Spirit guided a little band of his favorite children into the beautiful vale of Ah-wah'-nee, 1 and bid them stop and rest from their long and weary wanderings, which had lasted ever since they had been separated by the great waters from the happy land of their forefathers in the far distant El-o'-win (West).

p
www.sacred-texts.com...
These tales represent memories of traveling from asia,
using the same currents as later Asian sailors would have.

Great thread. Can't wait for the "new" one you're working on.

A land bridge over the Bering Strait never appealed to me. Sailing to S.A. makes much better sense.

reply to post by Druid42


I appreciate the nod, it will be out sometime this coming weekend

As always stay tuned

reply to post by randyvs

Aren't we going back farther than seventy one years before Columbus tho ? Don't the Olmecs reach far into Antiquity ?

Well, yah. That vid I brough is about the chinese military and the exploration across the Pacific. That is in the second part. It would lead one to believe that since the Chinese go back thousands of years and the Gyre current in the Pacific brings stuff from the Orient all the time to the west coast of the American continent, then.... we have been visited (a lot) over the millennia.

reply to post by SLAYER69

Last weekend on PBS, there was a program on this subject. It will take me a few days to retrieve the specifics and reply to you.
The ending has an American archiologist and South American archiologist walking a shelf above a beach in South America where permits where just granted to dig again after 10 years since they both worked the surface only.
This will validate a shocking therory...but I don't remember anything more right now.
Anyone see the same PBS program last weekend?

Originally posted by Mad Simian

No just formerly, I'm just an interest amateur now

Man this is a hard document to find! However I did find a French publication and translated it by Google with the inherent inaccuracies. I also found another version in Japanese but instead of standard Japanese it written in the old style 文語 bungo "literary language" which I find very difficult to understand so we'll stick with the English translation of the French. I've asked some more qualified people for their assistance.

The notes are listed in the link below, for some reason fusang in French comes out as Fu-blood

"In the first years of the young-yuan , the reign of Fi-ti of the dynasty Thsi a cha-men (or Buddhist priest) named Hoei-chin , arrived in the country of Fu-sang to King-chow[14] , it says the following:

"The Fu-blood is at 20,000 li east of the country of Ta-han , and also east of China. In this country, it grows a lot of trees called Fou-blood[15] , whose leaves resemble those of Thoung ( Bignonia tomentosa ), and those first shoots of bamboo. The locals eat them. The fruit is red and has the shape of a pear. Preparing the bark of this tree as hemp and made ​​into fabrics and garments. We also manufacture fabrics with flowers. Planks of wood used in the construction [23] houses, because in this country there are no towns or walled houses. The inhabitants are writing and make paper from the bark of Fou-blood . They have no weapons or troops, and do not make war. According to the laws of the kingdom, there is a prison south and north. Those who have committed less serious offenses are sent to the southern, but the big criminals are relegated to the north. Those who can receive their thanks are sent to the first, on the contrary those which we do not want the grant are held in the prison in northern[16] . Men and women who are in it can marry together. The male children born of these meetings are sold into slavery at the age of 8 years, girls at the age of 9 years. Never criminals who are locked out not alive. When a man of higher rank commits a crime, the people gather in large numbers, sits vis-à-vis the criminal placed in a pit, a banquet feasts, and takes his leave as of dying[17] . Then surrounds ash. For less serious offense, the offender is punished alone, but for a great crime, the offender, his son and grandchildren are punished son, finally, to the greatest harm, his descendants, until the 7 th generation are wrapped in his punishment[18] .

"The name of the king of the country is Y-chi (or Yit-chi )[19] , the major of the first class are called Toui-lou , those of the second -lou Toui small , and those of the third Na-you-cha . When the king comes out, it is accompanied by drums and horns. It changes the color of his clothes at different times, in the years of the cycle kia [24] and there[20] , they are blue, and in the years ping and ting[21] , red, in the year or and ki[22] , yellow, in the years keng and sin[23] , white and finally in those characters jin and kuei[24] , they are black[25] .

"The cattle have long horns, on which load burdens that weigh up to 20 ho (120 Chinese books). Is used in this country chariots of cattle, horses and deer[26] . It feeds the deer as we raise cattle in China are made ​​cheese from the milk of female[27] . There is a kind of red pear that keeps throughout the year. There are also many vineyards[28] , iron deficiency, but found there of copper [25] gold and silver are not estimated. Trade is free and we do not haggle.

"Here is what is practiced at weddings. Anyone who wants to marry a girl sets his hut in front of it and there sprinkles and cleanses the earth every morning and every evening. When he performed this step for one year, if the girl does not give his consent, he left, but if she agrees with him, he marries her. Wedding ceremonies are almost the same in China. On the death of the father or the mother, one abstains from eating for seven days. At the grandfather or grandmother, we deprive ourselves of food for five days, and only for the death of three brothers, sisters, uncles, aunts and other relatives. Images of spirits are placed on a pedestal species, and they address prayers morning and evening[29] . It does not mourning.

"The king does not deal with government business for three years after his accession to the throne[30] .

"In the past, the religion of Buddha does not exist in this country. [26] It was in the 4 th year of Ta-ming , the reign of Hsiao-wu-ti of Soung (458 AD) that five Pi-khieou or religious countries Ki-pin (Cophène) went to Fu-blood there and spread the law of Buddha, they brought with them books and sacred images, ritual and instituted the monastic habits[31] , which made ​​change the morals of the inhabitants[32] ".

Link to the original starts at paragraph 23, the notes associated with the document start at paragraph 27

reply to post by Hanslune


Very interesting information.
I for one appreciate the info.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Howdy Slayer

My pleasure it always annoys me when I know something exists but cannot find it.

However I can see now that I can read it again (I read it in the 1970s), why so many sources didn't list the actual document but instead cherry picked data out of it.

Originally posted by hp1229

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by SuchIsLife

 

I've always thought some of the indigenous peoples of the Andes in South America reminded me often of the people of Nepal or Tibet for some odd reason.....

Definitely according to the below link.

INDISPUTABLE CONTACT BETWEEN ANCIENT CHINA AND PERU

I mean literally they had a 'contact' to leave some of their heritage behind in South America

Link with some images and few theories which you can post (feelin too lazy after a heavy lunch to post images

LINK

From your link:

In the preface, Betty J. Meyers, an Associate Researcher of the Smithsonian Institution, assesses the evidence of Trans-Pacific contact and tells us quite clearly that ‘those of us who believe that the evidence of trans-Pacific contact is quite conclusive are truly puzzled by the antagonism of those who oppose it; a reaction that have doubtless been provoked by the new ideas revolutionising the scientific world'. We must also analyse the book's subtitle: Why do scholars see macaws where normal people see elephants? Some question, if we consider that a macaw is an American bird, a kind of parrot of about the size of a chicken, with green, blue and red plumage! Well, Betty J. Meyers's answer couldn't be more decisive: ‘The only possible reason for the refusal to believe that the sculptures and the drawings in Mayan codices are Indian elephants is that such an admission would demolish the foundations of the doctrine of an independent evolution of American culture…'.

The answer to the bolded question is because these works actually do show macaws. They are very plain to see, as long as you're looking at them and not at somebody's drawing of the artwork.

Also, I'd like to see some evidence that Betty Meyers was really "an Associate Researcher of the Smithsonian Institution." I can't find her there or anywhwere else, except at your link and at cut-and-paste versions of the content at your link.

Harte

reply to post by SLAYER69

High slayer,
This might be of interest, I found this article a couple of months ago, while enjoying an ice cold Newcastle,

Some Japanese anthropologist believe that the YAYOI period were the Hmong people of the Yangtze river.

So their theory is that the Hmong fought against the Yellow Emperor. With their lost, the Hmong settled into the Yangzte river. And some Hmong fled on a boat to Kyushu island, and introduced rice culture and became apart of the Yayoi Period.

The incipient Yayoi culture was augmented by vast immigration. Astonishingly, available population data suggests that some 3 million people immigrated from the Asian mainland to Japan between 300 BCE and AD 700, or about 3,000 per year

The source,
forums.asiantown.net...

Unfortunately most of the juicy stuff is in Japanese?/ Chinese?


It's an interesting take on the transition from jomon to yayoi, and the implications of such a large scale migration would have on the previous inhabitants, are astounding. This migration would have rivaled European expansion in the new world.

So, a couple of days after I read the article, I happened to make the aquaitance of a gentlemen of Hmong ancestry. He was about my age, so I figured he was either old world born or first gen in the US, so I asked him if was familiar with the theory in the article.
He was very knowledgeable in the history of ancient China and the Hmong people. He told me that his oral tradition holds that the Hmong people lived in several kingdoms along the yangtze river and there were mountain and river people. They allied themselves with other local kingdoms and resisted the invading Shang dynasty( yellow emperor). They were ultimately defeated and were driven from thier historic homelands, the mountain proper fled to the mountains south and west and the river people sailed down river and no one knew what became of them.
So this period of war and conquest in China could have cause even more people to flee the growing power of the han and week new lands in which to luve, which is exactly what the hmong appear to have done.

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by hp1229

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by SuchIsLife

 

I've always thought some of the indigenous peoples of the Andes in South America reminded me often of the people of Nepal or Tibet for some odd reason.....

Definitely according to the below link.

INDISPUTABLE CONTACT BETWEEN ANCIENT CHINA AND PERU

I mean literally they had a 'contact' to leave some of their heritage behind in South America

Link with some images and few theories which you can post (feelin too lazy after a heavy lunch to post images

LINK

From your link:

In the preface, Betty J. Meyers, an Associate Researcher of the Smithsonian Institution, assesses the evidence of Trans-Pacific contact and tells us quite clearly that ‘those of us who believe that the evidence of trans-Pacific contact is quite conclusive are truly puzzled by the antagonism of those who oppose it; a reaction that have doubtless been provoked by the new ideas revolutionising the scientific world'. We must also analyse the book's subtitle: Why do scholars see macaws where normal people see elephants? Some question, if we consider that a macaw is an American bird, a kind of parrot of about the size of a chicken, with green, blue and red plumage! Well, Betty J. Meyers's answer couldn't be more decisive: ‘The only possible reason for the refusal to believe that the sculptures and the drawings in Mayan codices are Indian elephants is that such an admission would demolish the foundations of the doctrine of an independent evolution of American culture…'.

The answer to the bolded question is because these works actually do show macaws. They are very plain to see, as long as you're looking at them and not at somebody's drawing of the artwork.

Also, I'd like to see some evidence that Betty Meyers was really "an Associate Researcher of the Smithsonian Institution." I can't find her there or anywhwere else, except at your link and at cut-and-paste versions of the content at your link.

Harte

Hi harte,
Actually her name is Betty Meggers,

The doyen of this faction is Betty Meggers, an eminent anthropologist at the Smithsonian Institution, who has advanced this inquiry for more than fifty years despite fierce resistance from her colleagues. In 1966, she published an authoritative account in Scientific American of how Japanese mariners drifted to Ecuador five thousand years ago. Since then she’s uncovered evidence—DNA, viruses that could only have originated in Japan, and pottery techniques found nowhere else—suggesting that ancient Japanese influence also reached Central America, California, Ecuador, and Bolivia.

And here is the link to the Smithsonian article about her work.
www.smithsonianmag.com...

Originally posted by punkinworks10
reply to post by AuranVector

 

For an interesting read on the a aboriginal peoples of se asia, I suggest
www.andaman.org...
It is an awsome resource for anthropology and archeology of the pacific basin,
And early American peoples as well.

Thank you very much, Punkinworks. That site is VERY interesting -- full of stuff I did not know.

I had no idea that the original Tasmanians were different from the Aussie Aborigines. They were Negritos and they are now extinct.

reply to post by punkinworks10


Explains that.

However, the site that was linked purports to be quoting from a preface she wrote to another person's work. Getting the name wrong, while quoting from text, makes me wonder what else is wrong in the assertion. Did Betty Meggers even write that?

Harte

Push and expand

The Han pushed south from northern China around the Yellow river and in doing so they absorbed, destroyed or push away the people who were their previously

The people who would become the Japanese did the same to the Ainu

The Bantu tribes pushed south into southern Africa pushing the Khoi and others before them

The Celts moved in Europe followed later by the Germanic tribes

The Inca expanded into the west of south America

Later Europeans expanded world wide

The Aztecs moved south, etc.

It is the nature of people to move about - now some people don't but enough do to make the shifting of people a constant in pre-history and the modern world too

reply to post by Harte


She died just a few months ago but is unfortunately remembered for her failed theory more than her other excellent work. She published a updated document called, Prehistoric America: An Ecological Perspective, ISBN 978-0202363363

reply to post by Hanslune


Hi Hans
I would say failed theory is a little harsh,
unproven or contraversial yes failed no.
I wish I could find the article by the Japanese ceramics expert, who discovered Meggers's wo. rk while vacationing in SA.
It was his opinion, based on isotopic markers, that some of the shards found in Ecuador were not jomon in style but were actually from Japan. The clays specific makeup that is found only with a certain distance of a volcano in southern Japan, examples of the same pottery have been found in Polynesia, not just stylistic similarities, but made from the same clays.
Her ideas have merit and a basis in history, as the materials on drifts in the pacific, that you provided me , will attest.
Such as
archive.org...
And this is related

www.uh.edu...

And the early population of the new world was driven by the same currents and trade winds as is attested to by the widespread technological similarities of people on opposite sides of the pacific 12,000 years ago .

. Erlandson and colleagues noted that the Channel Island points are also broadly similar to stemmed points found early sites around the Pacific Rim, from Japan to South America

www.sciencedaily.com...
Another facet of history I have found intriguing is, in the case of the native americans of the west coast of the Americas, is that even though large swaths of territory are occupied by peoples who have a linguistic commonality, you will find small pockets of language isolates, such as the chumash and some extinct and very isolated tribes in baja, and far south SA.
To me when everyone else around shares a language family, these isolates must represent either remnant populations or later arrivals of different peoples.
So my question is why could very early peoples make the journey and survive but yet some later populations are excluded from the trip?
Added thoughts, in the case of California and baja, you will find some of these isolates in coastal areas where it is the only place to safely make landfall. In the case of the chumash you find them at the sourthern end of 200 miles of treacherous and cliffy coastline where the shoreline broadened into vast beaches being watered by rivers from
inland.

Originally posted by punkinworks10
reply to post by Hanslune

 

Hi Hans
I would say failed theory is a little harsh,
unproven or contraversial yes failed no.

It may sound harsh but in fact some theories do fail, as did this one

Here is detail refutation of Meggers theory. The copy isn't particularly well formatted but the only other copy I can find is behind a pay wall

Link


Yep people move around, cultures merge or are destroyed while some survive. When dealing with very low populations people of different groups can move about quite easily then once they begin to grow they stagnate forming the 'territories' we see now however, most people do not stay in one place for long (generationally speaking)


.......take a look at new Guinea for the apex of different cultures and languages next to one another