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Lost Maritime Cultures: China and the Pacific

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posted on Oct, 25 2012 @ 01:29 PM
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Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by SuchIsLife
 
I've always thought some of the indigenous peoples of the Andes in South America reminded me often of the people of Nepal or Tibet for some odd reason.....

Definitely according to the below link.

INDISPUTABLE CONTACT BETWEEN ANCIENT CHINA AND PERU
I mean literally they had a 'contact' to leave some of their heritage behind in South America

Link with some images and few theories which you can post (feelin too lazy after a heavy lunch to post images

LINK
In addition, even some of the native tribes in the americas resemble their supposedly asiatic fathers.
LINK2
S&F BTW.
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posted on Oct, 25 2012 @ 01:32 PM
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reply to post by hp1229
 



Thanks for the link.

Interesting read.


These facts, which we inferred from the Alexandrian document, are confirmed in the Chinese Annals, especially those of the Han dynasty, where we read that in 219 BC, that the emperor Shih-Huang-Ti sent out ‘an expedition of young men and women to a wonderful country lying far off to the east, across the ocean, called Fu-Sang. The young people settled there and were happy'.

The Fu-Sang hypothesis is confirmed in another section of the Chinese Annals, referring to the fifth century AD. According to Ma-Twan-Lin, a Buddhist priest called Hwi-Shin returned from Fu-Sang in 499AD (Richard Henning: Terrae Incognitae, 4 vol. Leiden 1956 ). He described this country, lying 20,000 lis away (a li is a Chinese measure of distance equal to 576 metres) to the east, with details of its inhabitants, customs, houses, trees and animals. Hwui-Shin tells us that Fu-Sang is situated on the ‘eastern coast of the eastern sea', that is to say, the American coast of the Pacific Ocean, according to Tun-Fang-Soh (Gustave Schlegel; Fu-Sang Kouo, le pays de Fu-Sang. Extrait du Toung-Pao, III 2. Leiden, Brill 1892).

The Chinese encyclopaedia San-ts' ai t'u-hui offers us a drawing of a Fu-Sang native milking a llama (Gustave Schlegel, op, cit. 127). Do we need any further proof to the fact that Fu-Sang and Peru were one and the same country? (Jane et al. Wheeler Pires Ferreira: Domesticación de los camélidos en los Andes centrales durante el periodo precerámico. Journal de la Societé des Americanistes LXIV 155-156. Paris 1977).



posted on Oct, 25 2012 @ 01:38 PM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 

Anytime. If you go to the parent website, it has some interesting maps.
LINK



posted on Oct, 25 2012 @ 01:56 PM
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Something interesting for you, I don't remember where I got this link, so you may already have seen this.Ancient Jade tool

It is thought that the aboriginals came to Australlia about 50000 years ago, They would have to come by sea, as there is no evidence of any land bridge. To me this says that they must have been a seafaring group, which had over time moved down the Islands of the indo-pacific, finally arriving in Australlia. I have thought about this at great length since I first discovered this theory.

My thoughts center around them being able to make voyages over a longer distance. There is a small amount of evidence to support this idea and there seems to be more being discovered at a few sites in South America.
South America link

If people from asia had migrated down the island chains 50000 Years ago. Then why could they not have travelled the pacific at a later time? The seafaring technology was certianly better in later times. More than likely the navigation tools and skills had improved as well.

With the recent discovery of an ancient city off the coast of India, possibly 9500 years old Then I would certianly think that there were asians who were traveling the Pacific, as far as the Americas, A very long time ago.

As always great thread, I can't help but notice how many of your artifact pictures have Asian features. As you well know there also depictions of asian creatures in the Americas. Elephants and so forth. S&F and a hearty thank you.
edit on 10/25/2012 by lonegurkha because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 25 2012 @ 01:59 PM
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reply to post by lonegurkha
 


Great..

I appreciate the feedback and the links


I'm working on a much larger presentation on a related topic. I just want to thank all those who have contributed info. It'll be utilized in the next much larger thread presentation.



posted on Oct, 25 2012 @ 02:20 PM
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I just hope the Chinese Government doesn't see this thread on ATS and start demanding some of the territorial rights leading all the way upto south america or hawai



posted on Oct, 25 2012 @ 02:26 PM
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reply to post by hp1229
 




That thought had crossed my mind



posted on Oct, 25 2012 @ 02:31 PM
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reply to post by intrptr
 


Aren't we going back farther than seventy one years before Columbus tho ? Don't the Olmecs reach far into Antiquity ?

Also the video mentions catapults ? I don't believe they would catapult something that wouldn't roll and crash.



I meant Intrptrs Video of course.
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posted on Oct, 25 2012 @ 02:43 PM
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Good old Fusang

If you are interested in the debate about where this might have been I'd suggest reading Feder's Encyclopedia of Dubious Archaeology: From Atlantis To The Walam Olum


This is status of the debate:

A country named Fusang was described by the native Buddhist missionary Hui Shen in 499 CE as a place 20,000 Chinese li east of Da-han, and also east of China

Hui Shen claimed to gone by ship to Fusang, and upon his return reported his findings to the Chinese Emperor. His descriptions are recorded in the 7th century text Book of Liang by Yao Silian, and describe a Bronze Age civilization inhabiting the Fusang country. The Fusang described by Shen has been located in the Americas, Sakhalin island, Japan, the Kamchatka peninsula, Siberia or the Kuril islands

The American hypothesis was debated from late and by the early 20th century after the 18th century writings of Joseph de Guignes were revived and disseminated by Charles Godfrey Leland in 1875. Some of the descriptions fit the Americas but most do not. There was also no 'bronze age' culture in the US. This theory had some popularity with LDS researcher

Emil Bretschneider, Berthold Laufer, and Henri Cordier refuted however this hypothesis, and according to Needham the American hypothesis was all but refuted by the 1920s. It has been revised and republished since then by many pseudo archaeologist and researchers



posted on Oct, 25 2012 @ 02:52 PM
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Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by lonegurkha
 

I'm working on a much larger presentation on a related topic. I just want to thank all those who have contributed info. It'll be utilized in the next much larger thread presentation.

Una maas...not sure if it helps since you're putting together a bigger thread.

LINK
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posted on Oct, 25 2012 @ 02:54 PM
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Originally posted by SLAYER69


An aside on the changing value of li

The changing value of Li



posted on Oct, 25 2012 @ 02:56 PM
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Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by hp1229
 
That thought had crossed my mind
I mean some of predictions and theories that are derived on ATS are not so different from the professionally paid intelligence and strategic institutes
So never know.



posted on Oct, 25 2012 @ 03:02 PM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 


Well, for what it's worth, 20000 li is equal to approximately 7160 miles and guess how much the average distance between the US and China actually is? That's one hell of a coincidence if the monk was embellishing/making up the story and, thus, pullling numbers out of his 'you know what'. lol

**edit**Just saw your post on the changing value of li but, even plugging in the shortest value, you still get a distance of approximately 4014 miles. I just used the ruler tool on Google Earth and the distance between the northern tip of Japan and the west coast of the US is approximately 4244 miles. Either way, that's a hell of a coincidence.
edit on 10/25/2012 by Mad Simian because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 25 2012 @ 03:25 PM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 


I have no trouble believing that ancient Chinese seafarers made it to the west coast of the Americas.

The last four photos in your OP look especially Chinese.



posted on Oct, 25 2012 @ 03:25 PM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 


Howdy slayer,
Awsome discussion, as usual.
Differing but ultimately related people moving around the pacific basin for tens of thousands of years for sure,
So ill keep my contribution limited to the time period in question.
The evidence is clear that Asian sailors have been washing up on the west coast of the Americas for centuries.
Most of the know examples were Japanese but um sure that all sorts of asians have been finding thier way here.
In northern cal one Indian tribe has a word for milk that is Japanese
I have a personal example
This photo is of a place in remote baja cal and its name is Palos de Chinos, The Chinese Sticks.
There is a record of a Chinese junk washing up in baja in the 18th century.


To the left of my buddy who's on the "new" road you can barely see the old trail that leads from one of a series of sheltered bays, acrosss the pennisula to the gulf of cortes. On a side note, this trail goes by a couple of very interesting places.
One a series of rock shelters up on a cliff.

And

They were partially walled up and had a hearth at the front wall, they looked very old, and a geologist friend of mine told me that there are other rock shelters in the area that have been dated to 14k years old.

And the mission San Borgia, hidden away in the mountainous interpret of baja, its been locked up for 30yrs, but a local gave us a tour, pretty awsome.



posted on Oct, 25 2012 @ 03:45 PM
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Originally posted by Mad Simian



Well I'm not quite sure why a Chinese monk would start his measurement from the Japanese coast. May I suggest that we find the original (well the original of the secondary source) and read what is reported. I'm wondering if it is a round trip accounting?

Interestingly one source says the Hui-Shen was from 'Cabul' and not a native speaker of Chinese - something more to throw in the pot of speculation

Here's the challenge, find a translation of the Monk's narrative - not comments on the narrative by later Europeans - some of which state the distance as 15,000 Li. I have been unsuccessful at this. Its almost like the commenters don't want you to see what he actually wrote.....
edit on 25/10/12 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 25 2012 @ 03:53 PM
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reply to post by Sublimecraft
 


I wondered about the Hopis being of Polynesian descent. In the "Book of the Hopi" there's a legend that their ancestors came from the south (Mexico), but before they came from the south, they came from the west over the great water.

In their history, they refer to the Navajos as invaders from the north. I believe the Navajos were Asiatic in origin, and distinctly different from the Hopis.

So much human history has been lost.

There are so many different racial types in the Pacific

The Australian aborigines are still classified as "ancient caucasoid" (I believe) I'm not sure what that means.

In any case, the Aussie Aborigines are distinctly different from the Melanesians who really look like African Blacks.

The people of New Guinea are unique looking.

Polynesians are a completely different racial type from Melanesians or Asiatics.

I find the Polynesians especially interesting. I wonder where they originally came from.

And then there's Heyerdahl's theories.



posted on Oct, 25 2012 @ 03:54 PM
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Since the end of the last ice age, over 12,000 years ago, the sea levels have risen over 300 feet.
Over the course of time, over thousands of years, the sea level slowly rose as the massive ice sheets/bergs melted in the oceans causing the sea level to rise.

This should explain how so many ancient ruins are found deep within the ocean.
So the topography of the land masses were very different back then making navigation, travel by sea and by land/foot much easier. Many islands back then were part of continental land masses as they weren't islands till much later as the sea level rose.

This should help explain how so many different cultures were able to exchange their ideas/inventions/technologies/belief systems etc. as many continents were connected via land bridges.



posted on Oct, 25 2012 @ 04:06 PM
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it really wouldn't surprise me to learn that the ancients were masters of sailing considering some of their other achievements.. another s + f for slayer! thanks!



posted on Oct, 25 2012 @ 04:19 PM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 


Well, if they didn't want to go straight across the Pacific, they'd follow land as far as they could. Coming from China, the northern tip of Japan would be the last bit of land in just such a situation. Also, in concordance with that thought, it may be that the Chinese of the time considered Japan as part of their country(like the US Virgin Islands to the US). However, I am not familiar with chinese history enough to be sure about that.

Anyway, I will use my google-fu to see if I can find the monk's account online somewhere because, you are right, it would be best to get details 'straight from the horse's mouth'...so to speak.


**edit**Well, apparently, National Sun Yat-sen University has an online version of it but you have to be a member of the staff or a student to access it. That's all I've found so far. Being a professional archaeologist(at least that's my assumption considering what you've posted in the past), perhaps you'd have better luck acquiring access to it.

National Sun Yat-sen University Online Library search

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