My Personal Crisis of Faith

Why would man’s sin condemn him to eternal pain? Eternal pain and suffering? To what end? Surely it would not be something you need to satisfy a need for revenge. I believe many people have died since Jesus died and never heard the gospel.

The vessel died, not the soul. You know why we experience pain and suffering. We experience it at the hands of one another due to our separation from God. In the after-life for those that reject God they will continue to experience pain and suffering because they will choose to continue to be separated from God.

You can view everything as God 'did this' and God 'did that' but the sad truth is we did all of it to ourselves and our descendants. I make choices for my children, I decide where they will grow up, what activities they will be allowed to participate in and all of it molds my child in to an image of myself (conscious or not) and also decides most of the time where he will spend the remainder of his days as few people ever leave the area that they grow up in.

We are the creation of our descendants - right or wrong. An overriding concept in all of this has been free-will. We have always chosen from the beginning what our destiny would be and early on it was chosen we would be separate from God - regardless of whether it was a trick - they were warned. I warn my kids all of the time about things and they don't listen all of the time. I fail to see how it is my fault for not forcing them to obey.

This is the other thing I would like to say to you, and I don't often, but what you wrote gets me where i live, quite literally, in a crisis, of faith, searching for a reason for the suffering, all of usseem to live through here.

If I have become a joint heir with Christ and you are my father can I not ask you these questions? How could you change so drastically from the Old Testament God to the New Testament God? If you are the same God how could you order entire cities of men, women and children slain without mercy?

Because He was NOT the same God... We have plenty of evidence, within the Bible itself, that there is more than one God being discussed. And the point of the text, perhaps, is to choose. And the text, and what we are asked and expected to believe, is full of contradictions, even while this "choice" is demanded of us. That should tell you a lot, right there.

The faith you are invested in, bases its omnipotence in the concept of this one book, which has been added to and taken from, as necessary, to conform your faith and belief system, to accept certain "realities." It is far more complicated than that, throughtout "history," which even, is called into question.

I see lots of "threads" on ATS, but no quilt. In other words, the rules here, hem us in, in terms of reaching a final conclusion of all the information observed and collected. Threads result in nothing if we cannot weave them into a quilt that illustrates our covering. You might see a thread about HAARP, and then about fake prophets, and then about prophecy in the bible, and then about pseudo science and time differentials, but if you don't tie all that together, then where are we?


In hell. As I have alluded to before.
And God, I wish, more than anyone, it were not so......

reply to post by ararisq
I have heard your opinion before and let me tell you I have worked as both an Adult Protection Investigator and a Child Protection Investigator and the victims of this world are real and not sons and daughters of fallen angels.
There are things that I have seen that I cannot easily brush aside with and just accept as inevitable as part of this "reality". I believe Jesus had a lot to say about how to treat others. To insulate ourselves form the suffering of others in this world by saying well that's just the way it is is a cop out from our responsibility to care for others. Am I my brother's keeper? Yes!

Originally posted by tetra50
Because He was NOT the same God... We have plenty of evidence, within the Bible itself, that there is more than one God being discussed. And the point of the text, perhaps, is to choose. And the text, and what we are asked and expected to believe, is full of contradictions, even while this "choice" is demanded of us. That should tell you a lot, right there.

I disagree. It is the same God but due to the event at Babel that one God and the opposition have been given many different names and usually reversed where the enemy is God and the savior is the Lucifer because in Humanism/Luciferianism the one that 'freed us from God' is Lucifer and so is our savior. You here the 'initiated' talk about it in these terms all of the time. Enki saved mankind from the 'cruel' God that sought to destroy us.

For myself, I'll still with the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Originally posted by grayeagle
reply to post by ararisq

 

I have heard your opinion before and let me tell you I have worked as both an Adult Protection Investigator and a Child Protection Investigator and the victims of this world are real and not sons and daughters of fallen angels.

You obviously have not or you have trouble reading. I have never asserted that at all. Unless you are 6000 years old.

[edit] - I said the beings before the flood were destroyed because they were perversions of humanity and after the flood by the conquest of Joshua. If "vampires" were created by our scientists am I suppose to walk around wondering about their constitutional rights like HBO thinks - or that they are still good people like "Vampire Diaries" thinks. That is the road we are headed down again - non-humans and that is when things are going to get very very dark in this world.

I have also never said that pain and suffering do not exist but it isn't God that exerting on to people. If we were not separated from God it wouldn't exist at all.

Originally posted by grayeagle
I have heard your opinion before and...

By the way if you have heard all of this before then why do you continue to question God - what answer do you expect to receive if you reject the ones you have? He isn't the fairy tale that the church projects.

Oh yeah, and this is the other thing. A whole lot is offered up for your judgement. Ergo, the recent thread about Obama and coc aine.

Who cares. so f**cking what... And i truly mean that. We are in a place and time where there should be no judgement about that for sure. In fact, I will go so far as to say, our survival seems to depend these days on appearing to be other than what we should.....and this tells you something right there. I am all right with that, but why aren't others? and what does that mean, increasingly, it means that meaning is hijacked.

Yes, you read that right, meaning is hijacked

Knowledge is evil, in and of itself....because it leads us astray. News flash: we are living in a world of fake morality, conceived and contrived, and used to hijack us completely and totally. I could provide sources for this, but anyone on ATS reading threads, would surely see this. One day reading CNN and Reuters, and history via Wikipedia, would illustrate it, in the bigger picture. Where are we headed, via this recognition?
And knowing that, what should we do, then????

Believe in a certain text, and its words, in a conflagration of "historical" concepts, or live in the "moment" and what it tells us is right now? The answer is neither is valid, at the moment, and hope, pray and act for a continuum that reinforces what is true and real, even though that is increasingly a matter of perception, and that is contrived, introduced, SPUN, so you will appear to be an indvidual reaching an autonomous conclusion, which sets us free, masquerading as truth, but is inherently designed to enslave us.

Faith is a slippery slope, in and of itself. But I beg you to see that it is the biblical definition, which itself warns all of us, that it is not believing what appears to be.....

I understand what you are saying. Someone who has a ministry reads and studies and is faced with a lot of questions from people as they try to understand their faith.

When I was growing up, I was taught to read and study the New Testament (emphasis on New), as this was the book about Christ, the book written and intended for Christians.

I was also taught that the Pentateuch was written for the Jewish people, while the rest of the OT was of historical interest only, meant and intended to show the link between the past to the coming of Christ.

I hated a lot of stuff written in the OT. Except for the book of Esther (I think it was) I had the impression that the OT was a collection of wars and battles, and the god-s portrayed in there were horrible and cruel, to my way of thinking.

In Romans 12, I concluded that it says to cling to what is right and leave the wrong alone. Simple and uncomplicated enough for me, and apart from the 12 commandments and the 7 deadly sins, I have therefore followed the direction I was taught to take.

Jesus spent hours teaching and arguing with the learned Jewish rabbis in the temple. If He disagreed with them, then why should His followers allow themselves to become confused by things He has not said or condoned?
.

reply to post by ararisq

You here the 'initiated' talk about it in these terms all of the time. Enki saved mankind from the 'cruel' God that sought to destroy us.

Wow. I have not been intiated, that I remember, in any respect of the words you speak.
I suffer, like many, every friggin day.....so I ask you to explain yourself, here.

Enki saved no one. Probably, neither did the God of the bible. If you don't get that from what I write here "all the time" than your reading comprhension is limited, at best.

Originally posted by tetra50
Wow. I have not been intiated, that I remember, in any respect of the words you speak.
I suffer, like many, every friggin day.....so I ask you to explain yourself, here.

Enki saved no one. Probably, neither did the God of the bible. If you don't get that from what I write here "all the time" than your reading comprhension is limited, at best.

First, use the quote tag. Second, how can you talk about reading comprehension and think that in what I wrote I was calling you initiated? We have plenty of evidence discussed here on ATS with masons, and others talking of their master.

Enki is the Sumerian God and credited by them with saving mankind during the flood. If you are just an atheist, then yes I did not get that but then why are you so interested in this man's faith?

Originally posted by ararisq

Originally posted by tetra50
Because He was NOT the same God... We have plenty of evidence, within the Bible itself, that there is more than one God being discussed. And the point of the text, perhaps, is to choose. And the text, and what we are asked and expected to believe, is full of contradictions, even while this "choice" is demanded of us. That should tell you a lot, right there.

I disagree. It is the same God but due to the event at Babel that one God and the opposition have been given many different names and usually reversed where the enemy is God and the savior is the Lucifer because in Humanism/Luciferianism the one that 'freed us from God' is Lucifer and so is our savior. You here the 'initiated' talk about it in these terms all of the time. Enki saved mankind from the 'cruel' God that sought to destroy us.

For myself, I'll still with the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

You seek to label me here with this. I take it that way, because of your description of "reversal" where Lucifer is the savior and God the damnation.

Let me tell you specifically where I reside: anyone or anything who seeks to harm and torture those who are smaller and weaker, gratified in their pain, I stand against. Period. End of story. You can put whatever name on it you want, but that is where I stand. And let this be heard and felt, for this is truth. I don't care what you have done, suffered or pain in the scheme of "forever," and time, this is what i stand for, all day long.

Torture, and pain, in seeking revenge for the former, makes the latter reprehensible. In other words, it is a circle of pain, that begets nothing but more pain. THAT is what I write about here, and what matters to me. I have lived with this pain, and it begets nothing. Punishment in this vein begets a love of the punishment, as to matters of surviving, in a situation in which we have no choice.

reply to post by ararisq

You here the 'initiated' talk about it in these terms all of the time. Enki saved mankind from the 'cruel' God that sought to destroy us.

This is why I wrote and perceived what I did, and you well know it, by telling me to use the quote tag.


Why am I interested in this man's faith?? I think it obvious. I understand, and am struck by the pain of a crisis of what anyone believes and invests in to get us through every day, and helps us to put two feet down and stand up on the other side of the bed in the morning....that is what faith means for many of us...a reason to go on, to persevere, to suffer what we suffer....
who could not be touched by that????

reply to post by tetra50


(Tetra50....I am touched by your words. Heart-felt words....)
At the end of all the bickering...and tossing around of words....don't we ALL really want something to believe in? Something good? And don't we ALL want to live in a world without suffering?
(we need to take all the threads, and make a quilt...put the pieces together....we need to work together, because we are in it....together).
jacygirl

Originally posted by aboutface
I understand what you are saying. Someone who has a ministry reads and studies and is faced with a lot of questions from people as they try to understand their faith.

When I was growing up, I was taught to read and study the New Testament (emphasis on New), as this was the book about Christ, the book written and intended for Christians.

I was also taught that the Pentateuch was written for the Jewish people, while the rest of the OT was of historical interest only, meant and intended to show the link between the past to the coming of Christ.

I hated a lot of stuff written in the OT. Except for the book of Esther (I think it was) I had the impression that the OT was a collection of wars and battles, and the god-s portrayed in there were horrible and cruel, to my way of thinking.

In Romans 12, I concluded that it says to cling to what is right and leave the wrong alone. Simple and uncomplicated enough for me, and apart from the 12 commandments and the 7 deadly sins, I have therefore followed the direction I was taught to take.

Jesus spent hours teaching and arguing with the learned Jewish rabbis in the temple. If He disagreed with them, then why should His followers allow themselves to become confused by things He has not said or condoned?
.

If he disagreed with them....because to change the perception of knowledge at the time, one must totally understand its past and present, that's why.

My advice to you is see the bible as a fallible, historical presentation, and do not hinge your faith or belief on it, as it has, indeed been added to and retracted, just as it tells us in Revelations to not do. And this, as well, perhaps, is a test of our faith. Because these are only words. Words neither define us, nor often even express what we wish to impart, as "codes" and the practice of doublespeak via the concept of coding, presents us with this reality.

No one thing has the answer: neither the bible, nor science, nor any philosophical nor scientific search for answers..... The answers, neither, lie in political happenings or strugglings. The answers, without sounding new ageey here, as I think this is another pitfall for us us: this philosophy of we are one; the answers, are within us in the spiral of life, and to wade through each level and see its obfuscation and deflection so as to distract us from truth...

When you reach that point, you will feel it, inherently, and if your brain argues with your heart about it, it is even more liklely to be authentic. However,you must realize that those who oppose your reaching that point are even in control of sensations so as to fool you as to that, as well.

It is where we are, and it is full of suffering and control and angst, suggesting to us that if this is what life is, what is the point. But once we agree, cop to that,the hell after that is interminable, and not just for us, but all those who take our place after that....

Originally posted by jacygirl
reply to post by tetra50

 

(Tetra50....I am touched by your words. Heart-felt words....)
At the end of all the bickering...and tossing around of words....don't we ALL really want something to believe in? Something good? And don't we ALL want to live in a world without suffering?
(we need to take all the threads, and make a quilt...put the pieces together....we need to work together, because we are in it....together).
jacygirl

If I touched you for good, Jacygirl, than I am glad, for I would want, only, to participate for reaffirming what feels good and authentic inside of all of us.....and you, in this sense, have given me affirmation today.. Thank you. May we all put those pieces together and conquer, and persevere, despite all that is against us.....much love and hope to you....

Dear OP,

1. That your questioned God's actions and labelled Him as a cruel deity over His command for the deaths of men, women and children makes me doubt if you are even a Christian, let alone a christian pastor. Nevertheless, I will still do my part, to share.

If you had been a pastor, you would have known the reasons behind it, and they were throughly justifiable being that those civilisations had turned away from His teachings and guidances, and had destroyed His creations far more mercilessly than He could have done to them.

Destroying them totally was an act of mercy, for far too many had cried out to Him for justice.

Think of yourself living right now in Syria, Pakistan, Somalia, Mali, Iran, Russia, Iraq and Afghanistan. You would have lived in fear for yourself and your loved ones, for at anytime, you can be sacrificed for any reason those leaders them deemed fit.


2. You would have known we mankind were given free will, so that we can be true to ourselves in the choices we make, for we were not created as robots, but humans with a divine destiny to fulfill, using what He had taught to our ancestors.

The problems mankind faced then and now are of our own making through our free will. No need to blame anyone else. It is either our apathy or our greed, or simply our stupidity in not thinking out better ways to reach out to others to end the pain and suffering, not with lies, but genuine and true solutions.


3. Prayers and faith DO work. But MOST CRITICALLY, you must help yourself first, for you had been given free will.

For example, and a rather common one, many would pray for wealth, justifying that they would 'altrusically' use 'part' of such wealth to help out the world and set our world right. Unfortunately, we mortals are flawed and easily corrupted by it all.

Our Creator created us. We are His children. He will never spoil us, BUT He will NEVER abandon us. Free will was meant for us to be responsible alone for our own actions. He can easily toss wealth to us, but in the end, will we treasure such windfalls, honestly?

No, we won't. We will only take it for granted, and when such wealth disappears, we beg for more and when not answered, our faith goes into crisis.

It would be better if we help ourselves, through honest ways to earn a living and live a real life, be contend with what we have, and we humans truly don't need much nor need to keep up with the Jones.

He will step in when we really are in trouble, but not when troubles are of our own making knowingly made such as gambling or robbing others, of which we will deserve justice instead of His help.

Extrapoliating on the sufferings and pain in the world, such as slaughter in Syria and poverty in Africa, will you blame our Creator for those realities? I suggest you look upon the leaders and the People, as well as the rest of humanity, over what we all had or had not done over the years that had led to such situations, and blame not God.

WIth our free will, we can still change the fate of our world. It lays with us all, beginning with you and me. Salvation lays with what we do. Mercy will indeed come from our Creator, but not in the way that you are thinking - linking hands and singing Kumbaya, for we flawed mortals had shown we are incapable of it. The destruction of our world by Him will be a mercy that will end all suffering and pain once and for all.

There is still time to avert such fate. We had been taught all that is necessary since the dawn of civilisation. Now is how we reach out to others to facillitate that change beginning with ourselves.

[

/quote]
WIth our free will, we can still change the fate of our world. It lays with us all, beginning with you and me. Salvation lays with what we do. Mercy will indeed come from our Creator, but not in the way that you are thinking - linking hands and singing Kumbaya, for we flawed mortals had shown we are incapable of it. The destruction of our world by Him will be a mercy that will end all suffering and pain once and for all.

There is still time to avert such fate. We had been taught all that is necessary since the dawn of civilisation. Now is how we reach out to others to facillitate that change beginning with ourselves.

Hmmmm... salvation lies within what we do?

I put to you it is not that simple. Not only that, but the text tells us that we are not judged upon our acts, or what we do.
This text is filled with contradictions, such as what you and i disagree upon, above.
Which brings us back to, salvation lies within our not judging, and discernment, especially in these times.
And this is for you, too, OP, the bible presents a panoramic of future, present and past, prophecy. I don't think it can even be understood, as a student of theology, without understanding that each chapter represents the struggle, fight and conquering of a tribe of people of the past, their reaction to that in the present and what this may mean for future generations.....

Having said that, CGI, and many other technologies, which are a creation of man, have hamstrung and cattapulted the family of man......and this has nothing to do with God, but we are warned, even of this, in the text. Ergo, the lesson of discernment.

We are caught up in small things, to give up our souls, in the seeking of the bigger picture.

Originally posted by grayeagle
...it is getting harder for me to imagine a merciful god who would command the utter destruction of men, women and children by the sword as spoken in the Old Testament. Can your justice really be doled out in excruciating fear and pain? Defenseless children destroyed because of their parent’s sin? How can that be justice?

We read of this through the filter of stable civilization, and the higher spiritual law that Christ ushered in. But in it's time, it may well have been the only path available. I think the harshness was in response to the limited capacity of the Israelites to remain grounded in faith. Do I think God liked it? No, but for the greater good of all the generations down to today, they and their history had to survive.

Lord I don’t understand your mercy...The world is so full of hunger and pain. The poor we will have with us forever?...Can you really allow that to continue and yet be a merciful God? And why?

If we are here to be tried, it is vastly deeper than sin/no sin. For everyone suffering, there is an opportunity for another to give service, to walk by, or to kick dirt in the beggar's face. Each action or inaction shapes who we are. When we suffer, we have the opportunity to learn humility, patience, longsuffering or we can nurture, hatred, anger, prejudice and pridefulness. We can also let ourselves crawl into numbness and apathy.
Without suffering we cannot know joy, both by experiencing sorrow and relieving sorrow. Suffering is probably the greatest opportunity for His children to learn powerful lessons and growth.

“Saved by faith not by works,” but “faith without works is dead,” appear to cancel each other out...

Two ways to see the 'paradox':
First, when one has nurtured faith, they cannot help but have their works show it. This puts you and others in a quandry though: If I fall short in my works, is my faith a lie?
Second: We are saved through the Atonement of Christ, after all that we can do. Two separate principles: We can never do anything to save ourselves, but are commanded to work towards perfection always, and only through Christ will we be saved in the end. The atonement is a constant offering to those with faith. Work toward perfection shows God our obedience, and is the fruit of true faith.

Why would man’s sin condemn him to eternal pain?...Surely it would not be something you need to satisfy a need for revenge. I believe many people have died since Jesus died and never heard the gospel. Would you really exact eternal pain to those who have not accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior because they haven’t heard the gospel?

First, if we return to God and have a complete understanding of our purpose here restored, couldn't the pain and anguish be self inflicted? When we really hurt those we love here on earth, we carry the guilt and sorrow of our choices for many many years. If we fail God, wouldn't our anguish truly be eternal? Would our banishment be forced upon us, or would we ourselves flee in shame?
Second, imagine a person lives without 'the gospel' his whole life, but seeks after all the true principles of the gospel as he finds them in life (Love, Charity, Patience, etc.) When he dies, won't the truth of Christ's work be immediately visible to that man? Won't that man accept Christ immediately? If a man does all he can in this life with what he is given, and accepts Christ the moment he can, how can God turn him away? I don't think God does.

All of creation is crying out for mercy, for healing, for salvation. Even the earth groans. Where is my hope and my salvation? If faith isn’t enough then I am quite lost and condemned forever

These are extraordinary times. Mankind has gone out of balance farther than all of history combined. But you know there will be an end to this suffering, this gross imbalance. You know that these horrors are allowed by God for a (relatively) short time so that the wicked will seal their judgment.
Christ is your hope and your salvation, friend. Who was the man? A hippie carpenter who taught people to empower themselves, help others and love. The works he did were not so much smiting and rebuking...they were teaching, loving, helping and relieving sorrow.

Hear my cry o Lord and attend unto my prayer, restore to me the joy of my salvation. I will try to believe in my heart and confess with my mouth that Jesus is my lord and savior.

Don't think you are alone. Everyone has moments in life where their prayers sound much the same as yours do. I'm sure even the prophets and apostles wrestled with these things in their times.

This is a talk on the Atonement. It is from the most recent LDS general conference. It's not your flavor of religion, but maybe it will help or give you insight or hope.

reply to post by grayeagle


I my self believe that we have entered tribulation, but I have not lost faith, even though I am not comforted in my times of trial. I do find it hard to believe that a man of God could believe that God's children would be cast out for being imperfect, or having in imperfect faith, or none at all. If you truly have lost faith, I would suggest that you look for his works- for they are everywhere, even in these dire times. I am a humble man, though I am far from righteous, yet I know that my Heavenly Father looks on his children much the same as any father would, with nothing but hope and concern for their well being. If this time on Earth truly is but a single sand in the hour glass, the only value in it is the lessons that we gain, our suffering is of little consequence, withstanding the humility earned. I have no fear for my God is a just God, even so in this time of tribulation I cannot admittedly suggest that I do not feel forsaken on occasion. Perhaps it is in this time that we will recieve our greatest trial- we will be faced with an opportunity to stand for what is right during a time that all we know is despair, when our faith is at its weakest.

reply to post by grayeagle


Sometimes, I wonder if the result of following Jesus were to lead one straight to hell...would people still do it? If there was nothing to be gained by following the teaching of Jesus except unending agony and the self-satisfaction of knowing that you did the right thing, would people still follow him?

This question arises from another thought train: do people do it for heaven, or because it's right? Do they do it for the reward, or for the knowledge that they made someone's life easier? Sometimes, I wonder.