The joyful joys of Job Seekers allowance just got more joyful in the UK

reply to post by MasterPainter


Nonsense. Instead you should develop more self worth. Salary cap is stifling and not based in reality. I don't see how you are fit to decide how much another person can charge an employer for their services with a straight face.

I dont want to use political buzz words but what you are suggesting isnt implemented on its own, what would follow would be a lot of other things you most certainly enjoy and probably consider god given rights being taken away from you.

You cant be all free spirit legalize it blah blah but oh yeah this person cant be paid that much because i picked an arbitrary number i think should be the ceiling.

It reeks of inexperience in real life and makes me sad to think you grew up believing you couldnt make a million dollars in a lifetime.

Dollars would be 1.6M.

Anyway do the math..
I earn a good(ish) wage, on average £35000 a year. I'll have a working life of 40 yrs if I'm lucky.
35000 x 40 = 1,400,000
- 20% Tax
=1,120,000.

The AVERAGE person makes about £12,000 per year. However you fiddle the numbers it aint 1 Million.

reply to post by MasterPainter


So you should just be happy with that? Never strive to do better, create more wealth for yourself? Since you make $35k a year now that is what you should make for the rest of your life? And since it is sufficient for you it should be for everyone?

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that it is a small sum of money or anything. But it is just a number, and just because it is one that you are comfortable with doesn't mean that translates to everyone being comfortable with it. I know my language was harsh, but it was honest. I am not saying you are an idiot or anything like that, I am urging you to rethink the position. I think in light of the other ideas you have for society it is ass backwards compared to what you want to do with "substances" for instance. Which I will restate, I totally agree with your other points, I love them and I think they are exactly what should be done.

Salary cap however wouldn't help your situation, wouldn't help your neighbors situation, and would only serve as some kind of revenge on the people that make more than you. You never know, someday what ever field you are in now you might become a commodity, and you might be sought after and people might want to pay you well for what you do. You are suggesting that if that is the case you as a person, as a resource, as a supplier of skill/time/services/etc. will not be able to charge your customers/boss/employer what you are worth because of some artificial cap placed by people that only placed it because they themselves figure it will never affect them so what the hell.

It is just petty, and would only serve to make the richest people richer, because they could now keep even more of their profits instead of being forced to pay out good wages to the employees because there isn't much need for competition after a certain point because no matter what it isn't going to earn you more money.

I think you're reading it wrong.
If you can't live on 1 million pounds (1.6m Dollars) per year then there's something wrong.
It's GREED.

Most of my close friends are multi millionaires, they don't pay themselves 1M a year. They pay themselves with dividends from the companies they own. They invest back into their companies and pay their workers a better wage.

Yes they live in M+ houses but they look after the staff they employ.

I've never been a money person, I love the flow of my life and I love my job. I've worked in most of the country on this planet because I've had amazing importunities through companies I've worked for. Most of that is because I take pride in my work and am more capable than most.

The bottom line is not the be all and end all.

You should at least enjoy what you do, the poor with no qualification or skills get stuck in an endless cycle of no hope and depression.

reply to post by MasterPainter


I am reading it correctly I believe. I understand what you are saying, but how does a salary cap help any of those poor people? How does it accomplish anything other than stifling someones pay?

Again, just because you think someone that is employed isn't worth 1m per year, doesn't mean they aren't worth 1m per year. I realize you are saying specifically it is OK to have income over 1m per year if you are earning it through investments or profit sharing but it's not OK to earn over 1m per year if you are employed by someone.

The person that wants 2m per year from their employer for their services is greedy, but the company owner that pays himself well over 1m per year is OK because they are your friends? It just doesn't make sense to me what you are saying, and I don't see how it helps anyone other than company owners or stock holders. It will not create more wealth for poor people, at all. It will do the opposite. It seems only to punish people that are employed that are good at their jobs and demand a lot of money for what they do.

For instance if I am a surgeon that saves peoples lives and all that great stuff, I cannot earn over 1m per year under your plan no matter what. If I am the owner of the Dr. office that employs that surgeon I am welcome to as much money as I can make because I own the Dr. office or I am an investor in that Dr. office. How is this somehow helping poor people get out of the endless cycle of poverty?

I understand my numbers are off by $600k. The numbers don't really matter though, it could be a billion and I would still disagree. It isn't about the specific number you/we attribute, it is about the principle.

reply to post by SecretFace


I get where you're coming from with regatrds to unpaid work, sure. Think of it like this, someone works all their life, contributing so a system.

When the time comes they need the system to support them they make a claim, and are sent to work a 40+ hour week for a scandalous £60 something pounds a week? I'm sorry, but this is slave labour. If they want to teach people the value of working, the value of earning your own money, then pay them a reasonable wage.

Just because someone is unemployed and having trouble finding work doesn't mean they should be viewed as some cheap commodity. Send them out to work but make it worth their while, I wouldn't apply for or accept a job that was below minimum wage...so why is it ok for the gov't to send people out to work for a pittance? If it's happening in another country it's a scandal - we should start looking closer to home, scandals a-plenty.

To further elaborate on something I touched on in an earlier response - we waste so much, there are so many who get paid absolutely silly money to do very little...acting supposedly on our behalf when we don't want or need them. Dead wood everywhere...I work and pay tax, and would rather someone struggling to make ends meet get help than some greedy fat-cat rake in more profit when it's ulitmately wasted on them.

We can spend a fortune hosting olympics, going to wars...but we can't pay the people of this country even minimum wage when they're sent out to work for benefits. I did some awful jobs, I worked in a cemetary for 24 weeks for 40 some pounds when I was a teenager...I didn't whine and learned from it...but it's still wrong. It shouldn't be legal, it didn't enforce my desire to get a job, back then I was thinking of other ways to make money...it taught me hard work didn't always pay. And this wasn't some criminal dude ripping me off it was our government...bad times they were. All you can do is work hard and try and keep your dignity.

Often people would make ignorant remarks...stupid remarks like well you should have gotten a job then, shouldn't you? It's so easy for everyone to pluck solutions out of the air without a clue of who you are or what you've come from. But mostly people would be disgusted and quite sympathetic...which wasn't nice either. I didn't want pity, or to be spoken down to or lectured, I wasnted to be paid fairly for my labour which I was happy to do...and hold my head up and show a bit of pride in my work. I always told myself this - I'm being paid less than the person who just slated me, yet I probably appreciate what little I earn far more and put more pride into my work...how many people would get up and walk to a job they're being paid peanuts for, suffer the degradation and humiliation...and still show face day after day. I did, and that's the only thing I needed to keep me going through that.

Hello again , i`ve read through most of the posts in the little time i`ve been online and i`ve got to say that i`m quite astounded how many of you have completley missed the point of this thread.

I`m sorry if i did not paint the whole picture in my O.P , and i`d like to just take a sec to clear this up if I may.

The new sanction rules do not only apply to anyone who is refusing work , or refusing to "do as they are told", these sanctions apply to anyone and everyone , but it goes deeper than that.

When the work programme was first introduced we were told that it was completley voluntary , we could leave it when ever we like , and once on the VOLUNTARY work programme we would be guaranteed a job within 6 months.

Needless to say i agreed to sign up to the programme , being poor and having no other options it seemed like the wise thing to do.

Three weeks later i was told that the work programme was now MANDATORY and there was no way out of it. They then tried to cover this up by editing documents , most of the companies and charities pulled out , yet the corrupt A4e is still sitting there with thier hand out sucking your beloved taxpayer`s pounds out of the benefit system.

I`d like to make it clear that the work programme , is a 2 year course which you MUST attend , on this course you sit in a room full of random people , talking about how much you want a job whilst doing word searches and puzzles like 5 year olds. When you ask questions , or try to strike an intellectual conversation , the room erupts into chaos as if you have killed a kitten. YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO BE EDUCATED.

Yes i agree that there IS a lot of people committing benefit fraud and plain milking the system , and then there is people like myself who want to work , we are being ignored , ridiculed , and victimised by the endless hordes of self rightious superhuman taxpayers.

I did not post the information to start heated debates on who thinks who desrves what and who`s to blame, i posted this information because i think it is actually quite important.

As for those of you who mention the fact that you recieve benefits whilst attnding the , MANDATORY WORK ACTIVITY (not to be confused with the 2 year mandatory work programme) , i would like to ask you, with all due respect , where on earth where you educated ? .... I for one was educated in Public Schools all of my younger years and began to question a lot of what i was being force fed , when i left school i was working all day and "researching" all night for about a year or so , learning my rights as a human being and the laws of the land.

My benefit , now i have managed to sign back on , will be £56.25 per week , paid in fortnightly installments , totalling to £112.50 per fortnight ..... now .... if we devide £56.25 by 40 we have £ 1.40 per hour ........ the National Minimum Wage for 21 and over in the United Kingdom is £6.19 and once again ... It is ILLEGAL .... to pay less than the National Minimum Wage.

www.legislation.gov.uk...

Try it yourself , with your wage this week , try to live on £56.25 for ONE week .... i dare you. Your £56.25 must pay any and all bills , put food in your cupboards , clothes on your back , and keep a roof over your head.
And just for the fun of it phone the jobcentre for help "looking for work" , see how happy you are by next friday.

I`d like to say that the conservative party IS mostly to blame for the current situation regarding the benefits system since they have been in "power" for over two years and have made a complicated system even more complicated by choice rather than mistake . I know you die hard tories out there cringe when people say it as it is and at the end of the day a little truth never killed anyone , but blaming labour for everything just shows how petulant and down right pathetic this government is. Did labour bring in a police state and FORCE us to vote for them year in year out for over a decade ? or was it because the labour party (as shady as they can be) actually understand how to govern a country ?

NOTE : I`m sorry if I seem a little ratty but the nights are getting colder up here and we`ve had low fog for nearly a fortnight so my sleeping pattern is all to pot , called in to my mothers for post yesterday and was "ordered" to get a shower , have something to eat and get some sleep. But sleeping is easier said than done when your looking at life from the bottom of this rotten society.

Originally posted by sputniksteve
reply to post by JeZeus

 

Jezus you gotta lot of nerve. Calling others self centered. The irony of your name is just too much. The whole planet is in a lot of trouble with these attitudes.

So my screen name tells you .... what exactly ? Are you under the impression that i believe i am jesus , or atleast on "his" level ? If so you could not be further from the truth.

Humour , my friend , is something i will never lose ... no matter what they throw at me.

Originally posted by SinMaker
What a horrible story OP. Send me a U2U. I'll send you some money that is worth half it's value in the UK. Seriously, I mean it.

SinMaker , i can not thank you enough for your very generous offer , yet i must respectfully decline as i would not like to impose myself upon anyone , especially those of a kind nature like yourself. Although i am desperate for work and money , i would not be able to look myself in the eye if i thought i was using money that could be feeding such a loving person .

Thank you , your post alone has proven that real people still exist

reply to post by sputniksteve


Purely out of curiosity , who on earth is worth 1 million pounds per year ? , i mean actually WORTH that amount ?

We have heart surgeons saving lives on a daily basis , saving babies , mothers , fathers , grandparents , yet these people earn no where near the same as a Premier League footballer , or a banker , or an MP .

I`ve been on the bottom for a while now , and something that keeps grabbing my attention is this money worship i see on a daily basis , which has me thinking ..... why do we even bother using currency ? It causes more trouble than anything else , religion coming second by a fraction .

Money has ~destroyed~ most of our population , we no longer work to live ... we live to work.

Originally posted by wmd_2008

Originally posted by robbo961
Everyone who has used the benefit system will know what a head f**k it is. Anyone who thinks it's an easy option is misinformed. There are no long term claimants with flat screen TV's living the life of Riley. That's a myth.

BS made me

want to tell me how a family next street to me both on benefits no jobs for many years could take their 2 kids to FLORIDA 2 years in a row.

They also have a top of the range people carrier, I had a run in with the dad one day when he drove round to have a go at some kids including mine about something that was said to his children.

Well I told the F_ t F_ _ _ to jump back in the car I paid for he said how do you pay for it

Well I said YOU and your F_ T ass wife dont work !! I do I pay the tax that pays for your car!!!

Now no one should be homeless no one should starve BUT a holiday to Florida is not essential neither is flat screen tv's

So it still happens I know some people are in real poverty in the UK but people like them take advantage of the system and others further down suffer!

edit on 24-10-2012 by wmd_2008 because: (no reason given)

I`d like to ask you why you think thier children need to be condemned to a dull life of poverty , i think that says more about you than anything else.

First of all , it`s none of your business how these people live thier lives or get money, untill you have hard evidence that they are commiting benefit fraud, evidence that would stand in a court of law , i would advise you to keep any and all accusations to yourself.

I suppose we could sit here and go through 50,000 explainations as to how they got the money to take thier children on holiday , but no one should need to explain themselves for making sure thier children are happy and living a decent life.

I say hats off to them , you should be proud to have such caring neighbours , they sound like decent people considering the fact that during these hard times they are still putting thier children first , i have the utmost respect for people like that.

You should also consider yourself lucky that the father has the decency to refrain from clobbering loud mouthed ignorant people like yourself.

Originally posted by JeZeus

I`d like to ask you why you think thier children need to be condemned to a dull life of poverty , i think that says more about you than anything else.

First of all , it`s none of your business how these people live thier lives or get money, untill you have hard evidence that they are commiting benefit fraud, evidence that would stand in a court of law , i would advise you to keep any and all accusations to yourself.

I suppose we could sit here and go through 50,000 explainations as to how they got the money to take thier children on holiday , but no one should need to explain themselves for making sure thier children are happy and living a decent life.

I say hats off to them , you should be proud to have such caring neighbours , they sound like decent people considering the fact that during these hard times they are still putting thier children first , i have the utmost respect for people like that.

You should also consider yourself lucky that the father has the decency to refrain from clobbering loud mouthed ignorant people like yourself.

Well since this couple loved to boast to others all the neighbours knew were they got there money from tax payers they had no jobs, they didn't win it they didn't have a rich relative that died and left them money.

So is that ok with YOU!!!

They claim they are not fit for work but they seem fit enough for a 9 hour flight to the USA and to walk about the attractions for 2 weeks at the hottest and most expensive time of the year!!!!

So do you think that's ok when they have neighbours that both have jobs yet can't afford to do what they can!!!

I have been to the states a couple of times as well but saved over two for each trip years so I wouldn't have any debt/credit card bill.

No rent.rates, or car tax to pay yes it's tough for them,

As for your last line I was hoping he would try would have took great pleasure in decking the F _ t F_ _ _

Well since this couple loved to boast to others all the neighbours knew were they got there money from tax payers they had no jobs, they didn't win it they didn't have a rich relative that died and left them money.

So is that ok with YOU ???

To put it bluntly , YES , that is fine with me , yet what i fail to understand is why they would "boast" about benefits , but i assume they werent exactly boasting , were they.
Also , i took the liberty of changing your out-of-place explaination marks to question marks , as they should be.

They claim they are not fit for work but they seem fit enough for a 9 hour flight to the USA and to walk about the attractions for 2 weeks at the hottest and most expensive time of the year!!!!

So do you think that's ok when they have neighbours that both have jobs yet can't afford to do what they can!!!

Once again , YES , that is fine by me . You do not seem to understand that sitting on a plane for 9 hours , and walking , are not evidence of benefit fraud . Which is what i assume you are getting at here since your obsession with this family goes boyond the fact they are signing on - or " on the sick ".

I have been to the states a couple of times as well but saved over two for each trip years so I wouldn't have any debt/credit card bill.

No rent.rates, or car tax to pay yes it's tough for them,

Yes i suppose it IS tough for them , considering the fact that they are both out of work , and trying to raise children on benefits , whilst making sure thier children have a decent lifestyle. All the while they have strange neighbours watching everything they do.

As for your last line I was hoping he would try would have took great pleasure in decking the F _ t F_ _ _

Yes , because you are superior ... both physically and financially

To be honest , you seem more jealous than anything else and that nasty streak you have will only lead you to trouble. I myself am not a violent man at all , nor a father , but if you swore and tried to undermime ME infront of my children like that i would tear you limb from limb regardless of your size and ego. But i suppose that makes me a lesser man than your rather polite and respectable neighbour.

On a lighter note ........ do you know that you are a war criminal ?

Those precious taxes you pay .... they fund war crimes , so technically speaking you are far worse than your claimant neighbours.

Originally posted by JeZeus
i`ve had many jobs , i was an apprentice bar-fitter , an apprentice joiner , a chain boy (assistant civil engineer) , a bar steward , a handy man, and my last job was as an "Assembler" but i did more labouring/joinery than anything else. I`ve been painting/decorating for friends and family for about 5 years now with no complaints.

So if you're now 25, and have been painting/decorating for 5 years, you had at least 6 jobs before you were 20 and got made redundant from all of them?! That's bad luck .....

Although if you've been painting/decorating for 5 years - presumably self employed? - I assume you've been declaring your income and paying taxes like the rest of us. Any particular reason why your self employment came to an end?

Originally posted by AndyMayhew

Originally posted by JeZeus
i`ve had many jobs , i was an apprentice bar-fitter , an apprentice joiner , a chain boy (assistant civil engineer) , a bar steward , a handy man, and my last job was as an "Assembler" but i did more labouring/joinery than anything else. I`ve been painting/decorating for friends and family for about 5 years now with no complaints.

So if you're now 25, and have been painting/decorating for 5 years, you had at least 6 jobs before you were 20 and got made redundant from all of them?! That's bad luck .....

Although if you've been painting/decorating for 5 years - presumably self employed? - I assume you've been declaring your income and paying taxes like the rest of us. Any particular reason why your self employment came to an end?

Actually i have never been self employed i think you read that wrong , i have been decorating for family and friends in my spare time and i was paid cash in hand. There is nothing wrong , nor illegal with that considering the fact that i was also working and paying taxes + VAT.

I mentioned it purely to paint a picture portraying my experience in manual labour , both skilled and un skilled.

Any particular reason as to why you are asking ?

Originally posted by cody599
AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH. I was going to go into a rant, but, I stopped myself and thought about what to say here. I was made redundent a couple of years ago and signed on for job seekers allowance. LOOK AT WHAT IT IS CALLED ........................... JOB SEEKERS ALLOWANCE............not doss around and expect me to pay for you allowance. I am a highly skilled furniture maker, I once made a confrence table that cost £64,000 ........ so I guess I can say I'm pretty much at the top of the game. Whilst unemployed I went to sainsbury's, tesco's, mcdonalds,you name it I went there to SEEK A JOB didn't matter what or where as long as I was earning enough to support my family (albeit modestly) . When in South Africa I made the effort to go to sowetto to see REAL poverty and was humbled. I live on an estate where the council throw all the junkies drug dealers and single mums, BUT I pay my mortgage, my taxes, and all my bills. As a home owner I wasn't eligable for help, but if I was renting the council would have paid it for me, Around me I see people that have not worked a day in the 6 years I've lived here but are more than capable of doing so, they have better T.V.'s than me because I can't afford a 42" plasma (because I'm paying for guys like you). Are we gonna take it dossers whinging because they are scared of work ....... NO ............. Is it time you got off your lazy arse and stopped EXPECTING us to pay for you ....... YES .......... You obviously have access to a computer and internet try looking for a sodding job whilst using it instead of whining that the rest of us are sick of paying for you to sit around on your lazy arse whinging the job seekers isn't enough to buy a 3D T.V. and the latest X-box. Make and stand against the government ? ........... HELL YEAH ......... TO CUT YOUR BENIFITS AND FORCE YOU TO WORK. Just athought the army is recruting. Ever thought of helping to protect the freedom you obviously enjoy, or is it easier to sit around complaining and let the rest of us die for your stupidity ? YES I am also an ex soldier/ If I'd known at the time that I was fighting for this kind of opinion I'd have laid down my weapons and let them in. If only to rid us of our self mede parasites. If you don't like then sodding well leave. You live in free country with free choice .................... the chice to leave is your's sir. Or don't you have the balls to take the consequences of your actions?
Peace

Spoken like a true Daily Fail reader....

There is some cold hard facts that people seem to be ignoring in this thread. Currently there are over 2 million unemployed and an available 500,000 jobs available. So by the laws of mathematics that even if by this afternoon all those jobs were filled there would still be over 1 and half million people still unemployed. Let's not Ignore the facts or the Maths

Originally posted by stumason
Spending on Welfare, in the UK, during the financial year 12/13 is expected to total some £117 Billion.

Depending on the figures you wish to use (I've checked the Guardian, PCS Union, UK Uncut and HM Treasury), the combined total for legal tax avoidance and outright illegal evasion is anywhere between £50-£150 Billion a year.

Whilst sorting out tax avoidance/evasion would certainly help the budget problem, it would by no means cure it. Do not believe for one second that if those Corps or Rich folk got taxed more, they would hang around or employ more people. It is a fine balancing act between getting everyone to pay their share and not driving off the very people or companies that employ the rest of us.

That's for a specific window of time though, during a period of recession where spending on social systems has to rise, and while corporations are still avoiding their tax.

When you look at how much the corporations have legally avoided paying over the last decade, the numbers are very different indeed.

Also, is it considered avoidance when the HMRC decides to "ignore" the real tax bill in favour of accepting 10% of it? There are countless examples of the HMRC being wined and dined by corporations and then their tax bill being miraculously lowered to almost nothing. The claim is that this is legal, because the HMRC accepts the smaller payment to avoid being dragged through a decade of court cases while the corp fights against paying their tax.

I have a strong feeling that this is not classed as "avoidance" because the HMRC cuts the bill to almost nothing for the corporations.

In my opinion, that is massive corruption, not just a legal loophole.

And the idea that the UK would "scare off" business by taxing properly is a complete myth too. No corporation would willingly give up a massive market like the UK because they want to keep another couple of billion a year. They would miss out on tens of billions.

Corporations use the threat of unemployment as a tool for blackmail, and it simply isn't true. They need their employees in order to operate and generate profits. They don't hire people as a charitable endeavour! Every job within a corporation is required to generate the profit they make, the primary goal of a business is to generate profits, and this is done through income while keeping expenditure at the absolute minimum. This is the fundamental objective of all successful business, the laws of mathematics have not altered simply because a corporation says so.

If the corporations are actually taxed what they are supposed to pay, the elites in the board rooms will have to cut their slice of the pie from £1 million a year each with expenses and a golden plated pension of half a mil a year, to something actually sane and reflective of their worth and work. The people who invest and own stock will have to accept that instead of making £10 million on it they'll have to make do with 5.

That is the problem here, a minority of people who think they are entitled to obscene profits because of the school they went to or how much money their daddy had. The fact is, there are far too many people in suits who think they have the right to earn millions simply because their oil Barron daddy sent them to Oxford.

THIS TO CODY599

Just athought the army is recruting. Ever thought of helping to protect the freedom you obviously enjoy, or is it easier to sit around complaining and

Oh just a thought. you do know i take it that as of 2013 the UK government are
laying off 8000 yes thousand over 45 years of age soldiers.

I do so hope they read your post when they find themselves looking and not finding
this oh so abundant work you seem to think exists.
And as an ex forces guy you will be hoping that they share your viewpoint on the matter of unemployment
and the help that is being taken away from those misfortunate enough to find themselves having to ask
this government for the tiny amount given to live.

WELL GOOD LUCK PAL! you sir are gonna need it.

Hi JeZeus, not sure if you have seen my PM, but I am going self employed with the method I sent to you in the next month or so. Iv also found out that the government has actually changed a policy to make it easier so people looking to go self employed can get some financial help for the 1st 6 months.

Google "New Enterprise Allowance" for more info. The policy change has taken effect as of this month, so anyone on JSA can apply (it used to be you had to be on JSA for over 6 months).

All the best.