To all religious people

reply to post by Renegade2283

Sounds so very.......Jesus-like. Why should people have to suffer because Jesus left so little evidence of his or gods existence? Just seems so....... un-Christian (quoting Rapha saying, "Everyone who chooses not to have faith in Jesus Christ will be forcefully removed and sent to Sheol.")

There is something similar to that in the New Testament that could lead one to believe that was what we should expect in the future, in Matthew 13 in the parable of wheat and tares. I interpret it to be about the end of the then current age, with us presently living in the new age that came about in the First Century AD. The "tares" being the corrupted and now obsolete religion that murdered Jesus, to be replaced by something new, which is Christianity.

reply to post by Sublimecraft

LOL - you are in hell my friend, just take a look around.

Certain people make it that way but there is nothing forcing it to be that way forever.

When your soul matures to pure love, it will stop being recycled to this God forsaken planet and you will then be in heaven.

That seems all hypothetical to me. What if your soul was already some sort of pure concept or thought at some past point or alternative existence? What would be the point of returning to that, to run away and admit to failure that you ever created a material universe in the first place? And what if there is no real heaven outside of this universe to run to. What if the purpose of it is to finish the creation and make it into the place that was imagined for it to become?

I believe that this is what Christ taught.

I believe Jesus taught to make the world a better place by treating others the way we should.

This is the secret the False Religions and False Church's wish to keep from you.

Running away and leaving everyone else to rot?

reply to post by ManFromEurope

The others are obviously heathens and must therefore burn in that hot place.

Using supporting context from the Bible, it's been scientifically proven that heaven is hotter than hell.

Two word answer: Free will.

Here's my response to that: when omnisience and omnipotence is involved, THERE IS NO FREE WILL. Try as "God" might, free will is impossible. I told my buddy I was going to kick a wrapper on the ground. I said, "If you stop me, I will not resist. You are free to interfere." I gave him clear foresight, and clear power to intervene. I kicked the wrapper. He did not stop me. He chose not to. When you have the knowledge and the power, you have the responsibility. Any lack of action is the same as committing the act yourself. Any court will tell you this.

The only other possibility is he comes to the point where he sees something bad is going to happen and in order to maintain free will, he has to refrain from interfering? Where does he draw the line? Where does he decide to step in? With that kind of logic, he might wait until we're all dead before shrugging and saying, "Meh, they weren't of much use anyway. Time to fix up the next batch."

Free will is a cop-out. Omniscience and omnipotence and omnipresence negatve free will, because free will operates on ignorance. The ability to act without knowing the exact results of that action. Lack of hindrance because you don't have a clear reason, the certain knowledge of exactly what you're doing. Want another example?

When "God" put that tree in the garden, he did it knowing exactly how, who, when, and why. He knew Adam and Eve wouldn't be able to resist. In fact, you could argue that he did it for that very reason. Why else would "Satan" have been in HIS garden? Why else would his polar opposite be in that domain? You generally don't see the Mexican president randomly popping up in the White House garden going, "Oh hi there, try some of this poison apple."

If "God" knew automatically that Adam and Eve had taken that fruit, he knew "Satan" was in that garden. He knew the conversation was taking place, even as it did. He knew the exact moment Eve had eaten of the fruit. He knew she would offer some to Adam. He knew the moment he considered putting that tree there, exactly what would happen if he did.

Therefore, the only logical conclusion is that Eve was SUPPOSED to taste the fruit. "Satan" was let in on purpose, the tree was planted on purpose, and Adam and Eve were purposefully told not to take the fruit. If it wasn't supposed to happen, then why the hell were all of the necessary elements present when any one of them could have poofed away and all of the mess wouldhave been avoided? For an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent being, that's as simple as thinking, "Oh crap," and immediately everything is rearranged to prevent catastrophe.

It's simple: he planned it all. It was all MEANT to happen. Otherwise, he isn't all-powerful or all-knowing. Otherwise, "Satan" is exactly as powerful as "God", to be able to enter that garden without "God"s permission, or maybe our religious leaders haven't been completely honest about that relationship. Who knows? In fact, "God" had to have known exactly what would happen with "Satan" as soon as he was born, and he didn't bother to adjust anything. All of the signs point to either "God" NOT being omniscient, omnipotent, etc...or none of the stories happened the way we were told. Either way, the official story is a bunch of mallarchy because of the reasons I have painstakingly outlined above.

And if there's any sort of hitch in my explanation, please point it out. Otherwise, I believe I may have completely obliterated the whole "original sin" story. Nothing big, just a matter of critical thinking. You know, that thing "God" tells us not to use? Yeah, I wonder why...hehe.

reply to post by RimDaas


Believe me, I've seen that argument before. In fact, I came to that question all by myself. And believe it or not, I have never received a satisfying answer to it. Imagine that.

If "God" is truly omniscient and omnipotent, as the Bible and every church claims, then he knows exactly where everyone is going after they die, before their grandparents were ever a gleam in his eye. Every seat in heaven and hell was crafted knowing exactly who would sit there and why, and he will never change anything to influence the path that leads them to that fate - whether to save or condemn them.

Omniscience and omnipotence means predestination. All-knowing and all-powerful means anything can be changed or controlled with ease. And the choice to not change anything is the same as saying, "I approve of this" or "I don't care". Which means we DON'T have a choice.

The only person who has a choice is "God". And look how well that's served us.

reply to post by ManFromEurope

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Say what?
I'm sorry, but that is gibberish. Of course, I understand the need to stay in a more clouded form of language to be more mysterious and interpretable, but to modern day readers like me who haven't read a bible in the English language before, this seems intentionally worded..

Paul is using a diatribe between himself and an imaginary interlocutor, with the part in verse 19 being the objection to Paul's claim and his reply in the form of a counter-question in verse 20.
The main part that this exchange is a part of is about how God can be righteous in how he is dealing with the question of the differences between the Jews and gentiles. Paul has the "Jew" side saying 'we are whatever God made us' as a sort of excuse for not becoming Christians.
The point is that whatever you happen to find yourself as being in life, you are still responsible for dealing with it in terms of what you should be.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


i believe you've never found the answer.. because it is a perplexing question. So therefore perhaps God isn't omnipotent? The bible talks about the nephilim.. half human half sons of god(fallen angels). the book of enoch talks about the watchers.. why would god need watchers? if he knew EVERYTHING already? Here's my hypothesis... he/she isn't omniscient and you have free will to decide your own path just as the angels in heaven did.. those who rebelled and those who sit before him.

Oh and before i get attacked for blasphemy... I would like to address the "christians" of this forum and remind them that its easier to pass through the eye of a needle than to enter the gates of heaven. Some of the hateful comments on both sides.. surely that isn't what christ taught... just saying.

reply to post by Kitsunegari

reply to post by gnosticagnostic

i believe you've never found the answer.. because it is a perplexing question.

I believe you're wrong. A perplexing question can still have an answer, the answer just won't make sense to an inflexible mind. The answer is quite simple - there is no heaven or hell, and we don't have a damn clue what an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent being is like or wants, or even what it does.

We think we know, but we don't. We know what we want, we know what we fear, and we know what we're told. Those are the influences that motivate religion in this day and age. We don't care about objectivity, we care about subjectivity because every single corporate message is, "Have it your way." Easier for us, simpler for us, appealing to us, helping us, satisfying us, completing us...that's the whole game.

As long as it's pounded into our heads that we are imperfect and undeserving and we will never be as good as such and such, we are prevented from reaching out, from aiming higher - unless money is involved, of course. We are encouraged to grovel to a higher power so that we are accustomed to be stepped on, to being controlled, to being oppressed for our own good. And we are taught that there is hope, as long as this list of requirements is fulfilled every day of your life.

Fear, guilt, control, condition, subservience. Introduce a fear of ourselves, instill guilt through that fear, demonstrate control, promise that control under certain conditions, request subservience for salvation. Psychology as its most basic level...Pavlov and all that. There's really nothing else to it.

Originally posted by RimDaas
Specifically followers of the Abrahamic religions. I wanted to ask you something. We all know God knows everything that will happen and has happened. We also know that our destiny is already made for us. So let me ask you, if I am atheist, or am polytheistic, or I go against God's books, is it my fault? Why should I go to hell for something which has already been destined for me?

simple!!
You dont know your destiny, a theist at his/her last breathe could die an atheist and vice versa.
And as many have said, Free Will!!
If u get the facts at least enough to doubt that there may be God and just One. And even then u cover up and hide it, you are not faultless!!

Originally posted by TarzanBeta

Originally posted by Renegade2283
reply to post by AQuestion

 

Oh just get over yourself, Jesus is nothing more than a representation of the Sun, "God's sun"

He was invented by a bunch of Romans during the Council of Nicea to control the masses.

It would be a terrible pain for your pride if you admitted that you are wrong; having fought so long against Him. What would people think of who you were before? Would they be able to understand? You would be seen as an utter fool for all the anger and spitting through your teeth you have done fighting against God. People would think you were lunatic for following Him. People would start to think that you are unstable.

People would believe you were not as intelligent as they once thought. They would no longer look to you for guidance or advice about little things.

Herein lies your evil - that you guide people into hell because of your rebellion and utter ignorance.

Because your comment reveals how truly blind and ignorant you are.

How ironic that you rely on the numbers of people greater than you to make a point - and then when that point fails, you return to your own understanding, which still came from someone else, which is even more ignorant than the first.

If you want to be able to have a valid, educated debate concerning God, then you should be educated first.

i love this guy!!!

reply to post by TarzanBeta

Do not dare say that there are different answers in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. That is utter ignorance.

Then why are there different denominations? I'm guessing that the user to whom this quotes response was directed actually did his research, and all of those churches do hold those respective views as their standard.

Which means that you're saying, "Do not DARE contradict me! I speak the truth, for I am saved!" Please.

"Many are called, few are chosen." in combination with "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son; that whosoever should believe in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

Everyone is giving the opportunity; but those that are chosen are the ones that did not reject that opportunity.

I'm reading a Dragonlance book right now, called "The War of Souls: Dragons of a Vanished Moon". This quoted part that I am responding to sounds like the words of a woman named Mina, who serves The One God (sound familiar yet?). This One God is actually Takhisis, otherwise known as the Dark Queen, and she stole the world away to another dimension, accidentally dropping it into the middle of yet another war-torn plane. Thus, she is forced to save it for her own ends, but everyone thinks she's doing it for them. As such, they all want to serve her because her actions appear to benefit her...I encourage you to read it. It's quite reminiscent of your sycophantic drivel.

Now tell me - do those tomato plants plant themselves? Do they pick the tomatoes off and hand them to you to eat?

So who planted the wild tomatoes?

It is the same with people. All are created; but some do not receive the light and do not receive the water of life; therefore, they do not bear fruit. These were called, but they were not chosen because in them is nothing good. They will be rooted out.

An omniscient being cannot judge, for it would understand everything. Even the most evil of evil. Good and evil, sin and righteous, are human concepts, invented by humans for the humans to describe how they feel about things they like or don't like. And I think if you examine history, you'll see that 'good' and 'evil' have, more often than not, been used for the benefit of those doing the labeling.

Originally posted by RimDaas
Specifically followers of the Abrahamic religions. I wanted to ask you something. We all know God knows everything that will happen and has happened. We also know that our destiny is already made for us. So let me ask you, if I am atheist, or am polytheistic, or I go against God's books, is it my fault? Why should I go to hell for something which has already been destined for me?

Definately no Arminian. God has mercy on whom he will, which was all of mankind 2000 years ago till the end, when Jesus died on the cross for your sins and rose from the dead and ascended to the right hand of Power. There's your way out, if you accept it and believe. Anything else is on you. Does God know your fate, absolutely. Will he take away your choice? Not at all. Calvinism (predestination) is the belief that God pre-determaines your fate, wether to be with him or not. He doesn't make the choice for you, you make that choice. You can't come to the Father until he calls you but he called all mankind to repentence 2000 years ago, the entire purpose of the Apostles and particularly Paul and his disciples was to find those who are worthy of salvation (they accept the gift) and this has been our task for 2000 years.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by gnosticagnostic

 

i believe you've never found the answer.. because it is a perplexing question.

I believe you're wrong. A perplexing question can still have an answer, the answer just won't make sense to an inflexible mind. The answer is quite simple - there is no heaven or hell, and we don't have a damn clue what an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent being is like or wants, or even what it does.

We think we know, but we don't. We know what we want, we know what we fear, and we know what we're told. Those are the influences that motivate religion in this day and age. We don't care about objectivity, we care about subjectivity because every single corporate message is, "Have it your way." Easier for us, simpler for us, appealing to us, helping us, satisfying us, completing us...that's the whole game.

As long as it's pounded into our heads that we are imperfect and undeserving and we will never be as good as such and such, we are prevented from reaching out, from aiming higher - unless money is involved, of course. We are encouraged to grovel to a higher power so that we are accustomed to be stepped on, to being controlled, to being oppressed for our own good. And we are taught that there is hope, as long as this list of requirements is fulfilled every day of your life.

Fear, guilt, control, condition, subservience. Introduce a fear of ourselves, instill guilt through that fear, demonstrate control, promise that control under certain conditions, request subservience for salvation. Psychology as its most basic level...Pavlov and all that. There's really nothing else to it.

edit on 22-10-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

umm. k.. so outta everything i said your stuck on the fact that I said it was a perplexing question... perhaps I should have elaborated and said it is a question with multiple answers depending on who you're asking. I truly don't know.. (hence my name agnostic) about the mysteries of the universe nor do I try to imply that I do.. I do what I feel I am here for and that is to try to learn everything possible I can shove into my brain. That includes all religions (all of which have mystic practices .. to the person who was adamant about polytheist believing that multiple gods could only be believed by persons with a insipid view of magic practices which I'm sure wasn't you.. but that's my little rant) even christians have magic practices they just do it under "god" so it's not really 'magic' from their viewpoint (.. cuz it's "of god" ) Anywho.. me thinks I've strolled off the merry go round..


kudos to your open mind... please continue.. i'm out.. peace.

reply to post by gnosticagnostic

umm. k.. so outta everything i said your stuck on the fact that I said it was a perplexing question...

I didn't feel like it. Let's have a look:

The bible talks about the nephilim.. half human half sons of god(fallen angels). the book of enoch talks about the watchers.. why would god need watchers? if he knew EVERYTHING already? Here's my hypothesis... he/she isn't omniscient and you have free will to decide your own path just as the angels in heaven did.. those who rebelled and those who sit before him.

Which still leaves us with a flawed deity bent on destroying anyone who doesn't support him. See why I didn't address that portion of your post? Because it still doesn't make sense. 1+1+3 = 15 becomes 1+3 = 8.

perhaps I should have elaborated and said it is a question with multiple answers depending on who you're asking.

That's because everyone wants something different, fears something different, and is told different things by different people - all of which, essentially, is what composes the bones of modern religion.

I truly don't know.. (hence my name agnostic) about the mysteries of the universe nor do I try to imply that I do.. I do what I feel I am here for and that is to try to learn everything possible I can shove into my brain.

I like to think I've come to a certain understanding. And the only reason I think that is because I'm able to actually express it using the pitiful communicative mediums provided by our species. Telepathy would have been so much easier...

That includes all religions (all of which have mystic practices .. to the person who was adamant about polytheist believing that multiple gods could only be believed by persons with a insipid view of magic practices which I'm sure wasn't you.. but that's my little rant)

Take away the cultural spin of every religion past and present, and you've got several common elements which would probably turn out to be our rendition of an ancient truth. And at that point, you've got everything you need to know about the nature of our world and our purpose within it.

kudos to your open mind... please continue.. i'm out.. peace.

Well thank you. Keep smiling, friend.

reply to post by RimDaas


i think its about choice..... and parameters of your choice

i would say we have choice.... but we dont chose the parameters of the "choice"...ie what choices are available to us at/in any given moment.

one choice always works....faith


peace

You can change that today by making a decision about God. Of course you won't because you don't believe in God. As time is something only for man, every decision you will make is already known.

Therefore you have no excuse because you can decide right now. But you won't, so you have no excuse within the time you exist.

ie very unintelligent question asked from a human perspective about something outside our dimensions of time and space.

reply to post by WhoKnows100


Did say anything about genisis, I said Jesus.

Im done speaking with you religious zealots, its about as productive as talking to a wall.

Do you know what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object? We end up with arguments like this.

Im done, but not because I have no more information to present, but rather because every time I do, I get a response composed of complete conjecture. Its a useless waste of memory. Have fun with calling people who dont support your beliefs "evil"

Originally posted by AfterInfinity

Here's my response to that: when omnisience and omnipotence is involved, THERE IS NO FREE WILL. Try as "God" might, free will is impossible. I told my buddy I was going to kick a wrapper on the ground. I said, "If you stop me, I will not resist. You are free to interfere." I gave him clear foresight, and clear power to intervene. I kicked the wrapper. He did not stop me. He chose not to. When you have the knowledge and the power, you have the responsibility. Any lack of action is the same as committing the act yourself. Any court will tell you this.

Sorry, but having the knowledge and the power doesn't make the other person responsible for another's actions. Haven't you learned yet that sometimes the only time an individual learns is by making their own mistakes and not by watching the mistakes of others? Surely you've figured this out by now.

The only other possibility is he comes to the point where he sees something bad is going to happen and in order to maintain free will, he has to refrain from interfering? Where does he draw the line?

That's up to God to decide, but what most people don't realize is that certain incidents happen in order to teach and awaken a whole group of other people and not just an individual victim. Yes, God does step in and "interfere" at times. It doesn't mean he's directing anyone's entire life.

Free will is a cop-out. Omniscience and omnipotence and omnipresence negatve free will, because free will operates on ignorance. The ability to act without knowing the exact results of that action. Lack of hindrance because you don't have a clear reason, the certain knowledge of exactly what you're doing. Want another example?

That's why we make mistakes. Live and learn. Quit making the same mistakes over and over again.

When "God" put that tree in the garden, he did it knowing exactly how, who, when, and why. He knew Adam and Eve wouldn't be able to resist. In fact, you could argue that he did it for that very reason. Why else would "Satan" have been in HIS garden?

That's right. God knew from the very beginning what Adam and Eve would do....even Satan.

This was all God's plan.

The plan was to allow you the right to choose between good and evil.

That was the point! God didn't want to force his creations to obey him and follow his will. He wanted his creations to do it of their own free will.

What do you not understand about that being the BASIS OF THE WHOLE PLAN???

reply to post by Sublimecraft

When your soul matures to pure love, it will stop being recycled to this God forsaken planet and you will then be in heaven. I believe that this is what Christ taught.

Sorry, but souls aren't capable of maturing to the status of "pure love" here on earth, so there's no need to recycle them back here.

Jesus told us not to focus on this world. He told us our answers wouldn't be found until we focused and looked to him and the heavens. It is only then that we are "purified". A keyword search on "purified" in the Bible might be helpful in determining how souls mature, and I guaranty you, it doesn't happen through continual reincarnation here on earth.

reply to post by Deetermined


If I were to look for understanding of the word 'purity', I promise you that I wouldn't be looking to anything tainted by the hands of man. I would say less than 0.00000002% of the totality of the human species, past present and future, can be relied upon to give me anything close to a clear understanding of what it is to be 'pure' in the sense that you mean.