To all religious people

Originally posted by GeneralMishka
In Christianity, there are different answers

Evangelicals will say you have free will to choose
Apostolic Churches say you must choose & satisfy Church Tradition
Reformed will say you are ELECTED for salvation

Your current point of view appears to be that of the Reformed Church. Just as you could not ask your biological parents to give birth to you, the same is true in the Spiritual realm. God must give you a second birth, and your permission is not required. There are 5 basic principles to this doctrine TULIP

T- Total depravity- you are dead, cant come to faith on your own
U- Unconditional Election- Those chosen are saved
L- Limited Atonement- Christ Sacrifice is only for the Elect
I- Irresistible Grace- One can not deny faith
P- Perserverence- Saints can not fall back into perdition

Do not dare say that there are different answers in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. That is utter ignorance.

Your wisdom, your process, your doctrine, is ridiculous.

"Many are called, few are chosen." in combination with "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son; that whosoever should believe in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

Everyone is giving the opportunity; but those that are chosen are the ones that did not reject that opportunity.

You plant a garden full of tomatoes. Some plants come up strong and good. Other plants do not come up strong and good - although you gave them the same ground and the same water and the same amount of water and time and effort.

Now tell me - do those tomato plants plant themselves? Do they pick the tomatoes off and hand them to you to eat?

You go out to your garden to pick the tomatoes because it is time to harvest them. You choose the fruit from the good plants because they produced good fruit. The plants that died you will not choose from because they produced no fruit. You will pull that plant up so that it does not choke the lively plants.

It is the same with people. All are created; but some do not receive the light and do not receive the water of life; therefore, they do not bear fruit. These were called, but they were not chosen because in them is nothing good. They will be rooted out.

But there will be some who receive the light and receive the water of life; and these will produce very good fruit - some more fruit and some less fruit - but the fruit they produce will be good fruit. These are called; and they are chosen.

Originally posted by AQuestion

Originally posted by RimDaas
Specifically followers of the Abrahamic religions. I wanted to ask you something. We all know God knows everything that will happen and has happened. We also know that our destiny is already made for us. So let me ask you, if I am atheist, or am polytheistic, or I go against God's books, is it my fault? Why should I go to hell for something which has already been destined for me?

Dear RimDaas,

It would probably help if you actually understood what the bible said rather than bad theology. Jesus Christ's name means God's Forgiveness or God's Salvation, his heart was a heart of forgiveness, he forgave us for not knowing and being imperfect. If you have no forgiveness for others you choose to be separated from others and from God. Why blame God for our selfishness?

Thats hilarious. God created us for what? So we could dedicate our lives to worship him while He threw wars, famines, and disasters at us, also creating Satan to make our lives even worse, so we could go to hell with him. And somehow, we end up being the bad ones.

My knees are broken, and yet healed over. My flesh is willing, but I pick at my scabs. My mind is clear, still I return to the pool to ponder my reflection.

Originally posted by TarzanBeta

Originally posted by Renegade2283
reply to post by AQuestion

 

Oh just get over yourself, Jesus is nothing more than a representation of the Sun, "God's sun"

He was invented by a bunch of Romans during the Council of Nicea to control the masses.

It would be a terrible pain for your pride if you admitted that you are wrong; having fought so long against Him. What would people think of who you were before? Would they be able to understand? You would be seen as an utter fool for all the anger and spitting through your teeth you have done fighting against God. People would think you were lunatic for following Him. People would start to think that you are unstable.

People would believe you were not as intelligent as they once thought. They would no longer look to you for guidance or advice about little things.

Herein lies your evil - that you guide people into hell because of your rebellion and utter ignorance.

Because your comment reveals how truly blind and ignorant you are.

How ironic that you rely on the numbers of people greater than you to make a point - and then when that point fails, you return to your own understanding, which still came from someone else, which is even more ignorant than the first.

If you want to be able to have a valid, educated debate concerning God, then you should be educated first.

Instead of spitting poison at people, maybe you should bring up your own educated argument. If you find the person's statement wrong, use facts to rebuke them.

Originally posted by RimDaas

Originally posted by AQuestion

Originally posted by RimDaas

Thats hilarious. God created us for what? So we could dedicate our lives to worship him while He threw wars, famines, and disasters at us, also creating Satan to make our lives even worse, so we could go to hell with him. And somehow, we end up being the bad ones.

Fallen man is responsible for wras , famine etc... Not God. In Christianity, The Church is reconciled back to God by marriage. The Church is the Bride of Christ

reply to post by TarzanBeta

"Many are called, few are chosen." in combination with "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son; that whosoever should believe in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." Everyone is giving the opportunity; but those that are chosen are the ones that did not reject that opportunity. You plant a garden full of tomatoes. Some plants come up strong and good. Other plants do not come up strong and good - although you gave them the same ground and the same water and the same amount of water and time and effort. Now tell me - do those tomato plants plant themselves? Do they pick the tomatoes off and hand them to you to eat? You go out to your garden to pick the tomatoes because it is time to harvest them. You choose the fruit from the good plants because they produced good fruit. The plants that died you will not choose from because they produced no fruit. You will pull that plant up so that it does not choke the lively plants. It is the same with people. All are created; but some do not receive the light and do not receive the water of life; therefore, they do not bear fruit. These were called, but they were not chosen because in them is nothing good. They will be rooted out. But there will be some who receive the light and receive the water of life; and these will produce very good fruit - some more fruit and some less fruit - but the fruit they produce will be good fruit. These are called; and they are chosen.

A very inspired post. Blessings for all your Good intentions that are Key in Him to be heard.

Originally posted by InhaleExhale

Originally posted by ManFromEurope

Originally posted by RimDaas
Specifically followers of the Abrahamic religions. I wanted to ask you something. We all know God knows everything that will happen and has happened. We also know that our destiny is already made for us. So let me ask you, if I am atheist, or am polytheistic, or I go against God's books, is it my fault? Why should I go to hell for something which has already been destined for me?

Two word answer: Free will.

Long answer: Don't bring logic to a religious fight. You will lose, even if you don't understand why, how and that you did so.

My answer: Of 7.000.000.000 people on earth there are only about 1.400.000.000 people of Abrahamic faith. The others are obviously heathens and must therefore burn in that hot place. Even if they have never heard about the right church. Or some catholic priest used his sodomitic instincts on them. Even then, they are doomed.

Obviously, religion is stupid.

Blindly following religion is stupid, however just one little bit of trivia in your answer is incorrect its actually over half the worlds population that are said to follow one of the Abrahamic Faiths.

You may be right, and I have wronged. In the end, it changes nothing. Still, a lot of people are deemed to be doomed, even without their consent or knowledge about it - I love the illogilicity of religion..

Originally posted by RimDaas
Specifically followers of the Abrahamic religions. I wanted to ask you something. We all know God knows everything that will happen and has happened. We also know that our destiny is already made for us. So let me ask you, if I am atheist, or am polytheistic, or I go against God's books, is it my fault? Why should I go to hell for something which has already been destined for me?

Because "God" says so. That's all the reason he needs according to Paul in Romans 9:15-21.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

If I may quote your quote of the bible:

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Say what?
I'm sorry, but that is gibberish. Of course, I understand the need to stay in a more clouded form of language to be more mysterious and interpretable, but to modern day readers like me who haven't read a bible in the English language before, this seems intentionally worded..

Originally posted by ManFromEurope
If I may quote your quote of the bible:

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Say what?
I'm sorry, but that is gibberish. Of course, I understand the need to stay in a more clouded form of language to be more mysterious and interpretable, but to modern day readers like me who haven't read a bible in the English language before, this seems intentionally worded..

ManfromEurope uses the most accurate Scripture text available, but it might be more understandable for you in the NASB

On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?

Basically says, you are a creation that can be made for honour(everlasting reconciliation with God) or dishonour(destroyed)

reply to post by ManFromEurope

Yeah, that archaic English can be a little rough in places.

20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”

Is that better?

ETA: GeneralMishka beat me to it. Most accurate translation? Not so sure about that. I don't think there is such a thing. It's all Greek to me.

reply to post by RimDaas


This is a very Christian thread and followers of the rest of the Abrahamic tradition would appreciate not being lumped in with them. At least, I would.

Not all of the Abrahamic religions believe in hellfire and damnation, please do not generalize. This concept of pre-destiny is also not universal in Abrahamic faiths in the way you seem to understand it.
The original Abrahamic faith makes no statement about the beliefs of outside populations other than that the Israelites should not follow them, and in fact the Bible does acknowledge that there are other gods for other peoples. The text simply commands that the Israelites worship G-d and G-d alone. There is no concept of eternal damnation after death, and there is no punishment for people of other faiths. The Bible is a contract between G-d and the Israelites. If you are not an Israelite, you are not bound by its laws.

I am always subject to mistakes. To be a biblical scholar requires years of dedicated study and I have only just begun, but this is my opinion on the text. I apologize for my inability to cite the passages that led me to these conclusions, and for anything I may have missed that is contrary to my point.

Also, this is quite an oversimplification, but so was the OP.


--Kit.

Originally posted by RimDaas
Specifically followers of the Abrahamic religions. I wanted to ask you something. We all know God knows everything that will happen and has happened. We also know that our destiny is already made for us. So let me ask you, if I am atheist, or am polytheistic, or I go against God's books, is it my fault? Why should I go to hell for something which has already been destined for me?

Who said Hell has been destined for you? God knows what choice you'll ultimately make, but He doesn't make it for you.

reply to post by RimDaas

We all know God knows everything that will happen and has happened.

Oh . . and how do we "know" that exactly?
As far as I know, what the Bible describes that is similar to that is God knows some things that will happen because He makes them happen. That is not the same thing as knowing everything that will ever happen.

We also know that our destiny is already made for us.

We don't know that either. We all started out, before the material universe came into existence, on a metaphorical ledger, in a list of all those who are alive. Our hypothetical destinies were to remain on that list forever. Things come up in the meanwhile that removes us from that list but that was never "destined". The closest thing to that would be that there are stumbling blocks in the way. That is unavoidable as built into the nature of the universe, not by design, but just the way it turned out and is still like that that for at least the present.

So let me ask you, if I am atheist, or am polytheistic, or I go against God's books, is it my fault?

Those things are not necessarily what become the reason for your demise but what do are more fundamental. They are things you know inside but ignore.

Why should I go to hell for something which has already been destined for me?

I don't think there is evidence to support that explanation of how things work.

reply to post by ManFromEurope

Two word answer: Free will.

Eve in the Garden probably had that, free will, but there isn't too much of that in the rest of the Bible.
Abraham chose to listen to the voice of The Lord, but still had problems being quite as righteous as he should have been.
The solution comes up in the New Testament, which is of a spiritual nature, to through belief in Jesus, receive a better spirit which is holy, to work within us a new creation, to better live up to the standards we know we should.

reply to post by icepack

you don't decide wether you go to heaven or hell. it is the circumstances and influences, which make your character. the rest is luck or bad luck.

I have to imagine that there is something that is inside all of us that urges us to seek after that which will give us a better character than what we would end up with through pure chance.
We should take advantage of that, though the possibility is there to not, which is not the better of the two choices.

reply to post by Rapha

Jesus and His followers will reside on this planet when He returns on Judgement Day.

People have a life and then die, then go to judgment.

Everyone who chooses not to have faith in Jesus Christ will be forcefully removed and sent to Sheol (Hell).

That, or something similar to that, is described in a metaphorical scenario in Revelation but there is nothing that persuades me to take it as having been written with the intent to have the reader understand it as a description of future events meant to be played out in a literal way.

Originally posted by Rapha

Originally posted by RimDaas
Why should I go to hell for something which has already been destined for me?

You still have a choice.

Its up to you to decide your destiny or final destination.

Jesus and His followers will reside on this planet when He returns on Judgement Day.

Everyone who chooses not to have faith in Jesus Christ will be forcefully removed and sent to Sheol (Hell).

Have Jesus or god told you that personally or are you quoting the bible? I could be very happy in a place filled with people like Jesus, Buddha and Krishna playing around in the light. But being in a place filled with duality hating Christians/Muslim or Jews that have not reached Christ conciousness for all eternity would be an even worse version of hell than Earth is at present.

Originally posted by Renegade2283
reply to post by Sublimecraft

 

So your theory is that we are reincarnated over and over again until we reach a state of pure love, and then we go to heaven?

If so, I think I like that idea. It sounds so much more.......Jesus-like

I like it. How does that corspond to chakras and amagydala fear overload? Is god giving the light in that case not cheating since god can produce that pure love in a human by turning on the light . When feeling the love from the other side and the bliss of the body how can you not be happy and smiling when you are not upset with the smallminded world? If god gave the light from the start in life then the child would have a hard time not being very loving.

reply to post by jmdewey60

believe me, we as humans are other-directed, completely.