Ok, now we have a problem

U.S. Troops Again Return Fire in Iraq
By NIKO PRICE

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - For the second time this week, U.S. soldiers fired on anti-American protesters Wednesday in the city of Fallujah; the mayor said two people were killed and 14 wounded. Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld became the first top Bush administration official to visit Iraq since Saddam Hussein's ouster.


[url=http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/story.jsp?floc=FF-APO-1107&idq=/ff/story/0001/20030430/095361012.htm&sc=1107&photoid=20030429BAG103]Link[/url ]

[Edited on 30-4-2003 by abstract_alao]

A definite problem.

The Iranians have been sending people across to foment hostility and to help stir support for a religious government such as theirs.

Those Hussein loyalists who stripped out of their uniforms and melted into the scenery didn't just up and vaporize or change their attitude.

You can't nothin'. Not a thing. Its a shame, too.

It's no problem.

So a few troublemakers got shot. So what?
The people who were rioting aren't the sort of people who you can reason with anyway. They're going to hate the US and bite the hand that feeds them whatever the circumstances. Killing one or two more of them is going to make absolutely no difference. There is no more hostility to breed in their hearts. They already hate everything West with all their souls. Wasting people like this is no great loss.

I think that, given the situation, it's only a pity that the soldiers on the ground didn't call in airstrikes on the uneducated, fanatical scumbags.

Originally posted by Leveller
Killing one or two more of them is going to make absolutely no difference. There is no more hostility to breed in their hearts. They already hate everything West with all their souls. Wasting people like this is no great loss.

And this is why they don't like us. Arrogance. First of all innocent people get hurt. I guess all that propaganda about them loving us was B.S. You notice tensions have risen since Donlad went over there.

good riddance

What do you expect. If this happened anywhere in the world the same result would happen. Soldiers who are charged by hostile crowds fear for their lives and are instructed to shoot. Have you seen blackhawk down? the hostile crowd dragged the body of the soldier throughout the streets. Do you think one of these soldiers wants to risk dieing that horrible death rather than shoot a possible threat for fear of bad publicity. No you shoot. Its like that anywhere. If Iraq took over our country and we protested peacefully we would prob have been gunned down anyway. This is the way life is folks, nothings perfect.

George W. Bush will bring greatness to this country.

How will "bring greatness to this country" by preforming rituals with the remains of dead people. Get the hell out of here!!! Just wait and see if he gets elected again we better get out the duct tape!!!

His sig has no more relevance than the quote in yours by Winston Churchill. You're trying to tie in a modern day event with a statement made before World War 2.

Here in the UK we don't suffer the propaganda that you in the US do. Most of us were aware that the Iraqi people wouldn't all welcome us with open arms.
But those that riot and threaten the lives of Western soldiers? Why should I give a crap about them?
Whatever the situation is now in Iraq, if the US gets it's way, it will be a better country for it's people than it has ever been before. The mob on the streets fighting against US occupation are fighting against a future where they can live in peace and build a strong nation.

You want to see a new Iraq in the hands of the mullahs - another Iran then that's fine. That's your opinion. But don't expect me to give a thought to those who die trying to bring an extremist system to power in Iraq.

Of course, it's so politically correct of me to say I feel sorry for the poor little stone throwing, AK47 wielding Iraqi mob. Damn those American infidel oppressors. But sometimes the truth hurts. I'm not American and I'm not arrogant. I want to see the world turn into a better place.
Anyone who stands in the way of a freer, safer Iraq should be eliminated without a tear shed for them, because they deserve everything that they get.

Call it arrogance. I call it common sense.

Originally posted by Leveller
Killing one or two more of them is going to make absolutely no difference. There is no more hostility to breed in their hearts. They already hate everything West with all their souls. Wasting people like this is no great loss.

Say an Iraqi "troublemaker" kills your family, I bet you'd feel pretty good. I'd ask you how it feels. I mean, since he hated your family probably with "all his soul", it is completely justified and the best thing to do.


[Edited on 1-5-2003 by another_one]

I guess all that propaganda about them loving us was B.S.

So the actions of a few determines the mood of the whole country. What about the silent majority?????/

Originally posted by another_one

Say an Iraqi "troublemaker" kills your family, I bet you'd feel pretty good. I'd ask you how it feels. I mean, since he hated your family probably with "all his soul", it is completely justified and the best thing to do.


[Edited on 1-5-2003 by another_one]

WTF has my family got to do with anything?
Get it straight. If a few fanatics, or even a few guys carrying a placard, get in the way of freedom and peace and get shot, I don't care.
They should be smart enough not to bite the hand that's going to feed them. In case you haven't noticed - there is a war in Iraq. People get killed. It's still going on. If anybody thought civilians weren't going to die they were living in cloud cookoo land. Yes, it's human life being wasted but at the end of the day it is sometimes necessary. This war doesn't neccessarily stop just because the Iraqi army doesn't exist any more. There are fanatics who want to plunge Iraq back into the dark ages. They want to do this because they either crave power or they are ignorant of what they are letting themselves in for if they succeed. There may even be one or two who blindly follow their faith and honestly believe that they are doing the right thing. That doesn't make them right though, does it?

The whole point of the war in Iraq was to create a society where these people have no power to threaten each other, their neighbours or the West. If shooting them takes that chance for power away then I'm all for it.
Sure, one or two of these Iraqis might just have a mild dislike for the US and went along to throw stones just because everyone else was doing it. If they died, then they died through stupidity. A loss of life, I'm sure, but that's survival of the fittest. That's no capitalist, arrogant, NWO attitude. That is realism. People die every day. If they were too stupid to stay indoors that's their call. Nobody made them go throw stones and shoot at US soldiers.

Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by another_one

Say an Iraqi "troublemaker" kills your family, I bet you'd feel pretty good. I'd ask you how it feels. I mean, since he hated your family probably with "all his soul", it is completely justified and the best thing to do.


[Edited on 1-5-2003 by another_one]

WTF has my family got to do with anything?
Get it straight. If a few fanatics, or even a few guys carrying a placard, get in the way of freedom and peace and get shot, I don't care.
They should be smart enough not to bite the hand that's going to feed them. In case you haven't noticed - there is a war in Iraq. People get killed. It's still going on. If anybody thought civilians weren't going to die they were living in cloud cookoo land. Yes, it's human life being wasted but at the end of the day it is sometimes necessary. This war doesn't neccessarily stop just because the Iraqi army doesn't exist any more. There are fanatics who want to plunge Iraq back into the dark ages. They want to do this because they either crave power or they are ignorant of what they are letting themselves in for if they succeed. There may even be one or two who blindly follow their faith and honestly believe that they are doing the right thing. That doesn't make them right though, does it?

The whole point of the war in Iraq was to create a society where these people have no power to threaten each other, their neighbours or the West. If shooting them takes that chance for power away then I'm all for it.
Sure, one or two of these Iraqis might just have a mild dislike for the US and went along to throw stones just because everyone else was doing it. If they died, then they died through stupidity. A loss of life, I'm sure, but that's survival of the fittest. That's no capitalist, arrogant, NWO attitude. That is realism. People die every day. If they were too stupid to stay indoors that's their call. Nobody made them go throw stones and shoot at US soldiers.

I never said it was NWO attitude. But it's not realism. It's more arrogance. YOU would certainly not have the same opinion if it was one of your loved ones who was killed, and someone called it a "necessary loss".

No life is a necessary loss, and keep in mind: maybe someone does not want your idea of "freedom or piece" forced upon them.

Sorry for using "your family" as an analogy btw. Nothing personal.

Originally posted by Leveller
Of course, it's so politically correct of me to say I feel sorry for the poor little stone throwing, AK47 wielding Iraqi mob. Damn those American infidel oppressors. But sometimes the truth hurts. I'm not American and I'm not arrogant. I want to see the world turn into a better place.
Anyone who stands in the way of a freer, safer Iraq should be eliminated without a tear shed for them, because they deserve everything that they get.
Call it arrogance. I call it common sense.

Anyone who stands in the way a free and peaceful WORLD should be removed from power - immeadiately.

I want to see a better world, too. Not a world where people shoot people because of hate. I want a world where people don't even find it necessary to protest.

Originally posted by quango
I want a world where people don't even find it necessary to protest.

You'll wait

Wow! I'm seeing a loss of perspective, here.

The anti-U.S. demonstrations aren't happening by accident. The fact they are being whipped up doesn't mean that is the dominant position, it means that people are being whipped up to protest us, and while there is a throng of civilians in front of nervous troops, an instigator fires at the soldiers, causing a response that is certain to kill innocent people. This will create hostility toward those who has liberated these people.

Who'd want that? Let's see, we have the Hussein backers who are still part of the crowds, and we have the countries of Iran and Syria who'd rather not have America looking like a good guy.

Look beyond and see.

Is as simple as:

If the American Army were really the "Liberators" for them, they wouldnīt be so angry and pissed at them,
Where are all the masses claiming america the thx for these brutal action?? Nowhere, u just get the mass complaining because they arentīt happy with the situation, they werenīt that angry and pissed even with saddam in power, and now they donīt care to face soldiers with rifles when they have nothing left...
Get real these ppl have suffered the worst, and
fire like these to ppl that suffered like that is just as coward as attack afghanistan (one of the top 5 poorest countries in the world, being attacked by the most powerful) and then irak, Abusing abusing and abusing as always, we gotta get rid of those jerks controlling us and making us killing each other for stupid ideals that even they donīt believe...

Honestly Leveller, I think your argument is pretty flawed and extremely western-centric. Children have been shot dead in these attacks by US troops. When I was looking at the video the next day I saw plenty of bullet holes in all of the buildings surrounding the compound (created by US bullets), but the compound itself just seemed to have a few broken windows, no bullet holes. i.e. people were throwing stones at the windows, and bullets were fired back at them. I can't believe that these children would have been able to throw stones far enough to damage the compound, which means they were just hit in the crossfire.

To say that these lives are expendable because they're not freedom loving is ridiculous. Perhaps the Iraqi's just feel that they'll be occupied by the US. The US will take all their oil to pay for rebuilding the country which they destroyed, and then they'll put a pro-US government in power which is unlikely to represent the people. I'm not surprised that some Iraqi's don't think of it as freedom. It's just a regime change!

The US have shown time and time again that they're perfectly happy for a government they support to carry out humans right abuses, why should we be surprised if the new Iraqi regime is given the same amount of leeway? In which case, will the Iraqi's gain anything out of this at all? (except for the removal of UN sanctions at some unspecified time in the future)

That's not necessarily how things will go, but I think it's a likely outcome, and I can understand why the Iraqi's (who have just been bombed remember) would feel that this is the most likely outcome.

Originally posted by dom
Honestly Leveller, I think your argument is pretty flawed and extremely western-centric. Children have been shot dead in these attacks by US troops. When I was looking at the video the next day I saw plenty of bullet holes in all of the buildings surrounding the compound (created by US bullets), but the compound itself just seemed to have a few broken windows, no bullet holes. i.e. people were throwing stones at the windows, and bullets were fired back at them. I can't believe that these children would have been able to throw stones far enough to damage the compound, which means they were just hit in the crossfire.

To say that these lives are expendable because they're not freedom loving is ridiculous. Perhaps the Iraqi's just feel that they'll be occupied by the US. The US will take all their oil to pay for rebuilding the country which they destroyed, and then they'll put a pro-US government in power which is unlikely to represent the people. I'm not surprised that some Iraqi's don't think of it as freedom. It's just a regime change!

The US have shown time and time again that they're perfectly happy for a government they support to carry out humans right abuses, why should we be surprised if the new Iraqi regime is given the same amount of leeway? In which case, will the Iraqi's gain anything out of this at all? (except for the removal of UN sanctions at some unspecified time in the future)

That's not necessarily how things will go, but I think it's a likely outcome, and I can understand why the Iraqi's (who have just been bombed remember) would feel that this is the most likely outcome.

I hope the Pro-War can see that there is no good on the action done, and that no iraqi is liberated, instead is being shot, bombard in his own country, see ppl died, friends, family, see how another country takes over, the resources, destroy and then american companies rebuilding... And that the goverment has to be Pro Us of course, what more do u need to see to accept that u have being brainwashed 100%???

I agree with dom 100% and iīd understand ppl throwing stones, and even throwing missiles!!!!
But then u got the *hit heads telling that the marines were being attacked and they had to fire to defend themselves...


:

Originally posted by dom
Honestly Leveller, I think your argument is pretty flawed and extremely western-centric.

In return, I would say that your post is pretty flawed and a load of extreme liberal bs.

There. We're even now.

if i'm a solider overseas in iraq and hostile protestors approach, i would open fire as well if i felt i was in danger. keep in mind that the vast MINORITY of iraqis want us gone. and if we did go, that country would spiral out of control. there would be mass looting, mass killings (due to the religious differences in iraq) and a new government would not be enabled to take control. it is for the better of the iraqi people that we stay put.

To say that these lives are expendable because they're not freedom loving is ridiculous. Perhaps the Iraqi's just feel that they'll be occupied by the US. The US will take all their oil to pay for rebuilding the country which they destroyed, and then they'll put a pro-US government in power which is unlikely to represent the people. I'm not surprised that some Iraqi's don't think of it as freedom.

it s exactly that, they considered themselves as occupied!

it s only a problem of communication.

it could explain the decision of the white house to fire General Jay Garner.