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Why Most Entitlement Systems Do Not Work In An Intelligent Society!

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posted on Oct, 21 2012 @ 09:22 PM
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Most of all the first agenda, loved it!

It explained very well why we cannot entrust politicians, no matter how well intended they are pshh ya, with redistributing services ranging from food, wealth to health!

The problem with such redistribution is the redistributor!
We cannot entrust such individuals to be the redistributors
Redistribution MUST be volontary and never forced!




posted on Oct, 21 2012 @ 09:35 PM
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So are you telling me that

Finland
Denmark
Sweden
Germany
Austria

Are not intelligent societies?

These countries have a well established welfare system for their citizens that need it. Sure there might be people who abuse it, but that does not mean that a country should not look after its citizens that need the help, and no one is "redistributing" anything. The government creates the welfare system by using money taken from taxes. As you might already know, every citizen is supposed to pay taxes if they are working and receive a certain amount of income.

Please stop selling your feudalistic society, because the working poor are getting fed up with conservatives that want the poor to wait under the table for scraps to be thrown at them.



posted on Oct, 21 2012 @ 09:52 PM
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Originally posted by muse7
So are you telling me that

Finland
Denmark
Sweden
Germany
Austria

Are not intelligent societies?

To each their own but those are very small countries
Redistribution works horribly in larger countries like Canada and the U.S.

Secondly who knows those countries might have been better off without that system.

Originally posted by muse7
These countries have a well established welfare system for their citizens that need it. Sure there might be people who abuse it, but that does not mean that a country should not look after its citizens that need the help, and no one is "redistributing" anything. The government creates the welfare system by using money taken from taxes. As you might already know, every citizen is supposed to pay taxes if they are working and receive a certain amount of income.

No one is redistributing anything?
Really??
I really think you need to do some research

Originally posted by muse7
Please stop selling your feudalistic society, because the working poor are getting fed up with conservatives that want the poor to wait under the table for scraps to be thrown at them.

Many working poors are ALSO FED UP with high taxes to pay for better paid households that drown their liver in alcohol and smoke a pack of cigarettes everyday!

You are trying to rob the very people you are pretending to care for!



posted on Oct, 21 2012 @ 10:08 PM
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I would point my finger at those rich elitist who feel they are entitled and their kids who cannot get themselves off the boob .

Poor pay higher taxes banks and companies enjoy write off and enjoy their billions in profit handed down with bonuses . The CEO gm general motors was making 350 million a year , and and the companies need a bail out from tax payers . Look at all of wall streets and the banks they are the ones who are entitled they get the handouts in the trillions . Yet we cannot afford basic housing and proper schooling . Always some one feels entitled to make a buck off someone but then I guess this entitlement system in the west does work for the super wealthy .

and the countries you list are no where near in the financial crisis as most western world and their views on socialism .



posted on Oct, 22 2012 @ 12:08 AM
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So are you telling me that Finland Denmark Sweden Germany Austria Are not intelligent societies?


Nope they aren't,

People forgotten just exactly how and why this country was formed?

To get away from the stupidity in Europe, and now some are busy little bees trying to turn the US in to Europe.

Robbing from the rich giving to the poor came from Europe in case people forgot Robbin Hood,

Since 1935 all that ideology has done is turn over have this nation's people in to Sherwoods forest, and their saviors Robbing hood the Potus, and Friar tuck Vpotus, are all too happy to oblige.

Entiltlement systems do not work,and never will because right now there are more people consuming that wealth that paying back in to it.

But then again all that money stolen ends up in those corporate pockets well hip hip hoorah for the fascists of this country under the guise of they are just looking out for the "poor".

In an intelligent society the entitlement mentality would never exist.



posted on Oct, 22 2012 @ 12:56 AM
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i believe that if these programs offered the bare minimum of help, it would limit the number of people looking for a free ride. when people on assistance are living a better life than the ones willing to work, it sends the wrong message. when people are able to have cable, cell phones , and now fast food,by only filling out one job app a week , it promotes their false sense of entitlements, and limits their want of self dependence.



posted on Oct, 22 2012 @ 01:26 AM
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Originally posted by IsawWHATtheyDID
i believe that if these programs offered the bare minimum of help, it would limit the number of people looking for a free ride. when people on assistance are living a better life than the ones willing to work, it sends the wrong message. when people are able to have cable, cell phones , and now fast food,by only filling out one job app a week , it promotes their false sense of entitlements, and limits their want of self dependence.


The problem with this, is, the 'bare minimum' never keeps up with the cost of living...
Welfare does not fit real nice into a capitalist paradigm, unless it fosters philanthropy...which is more a consciouness issue...the rich get richer, the poor get the picture...

A dedicated and driven welfare system, promotes incentive...there will always be leeches that suck the system...but on a comparative scale, people 'filling out one job app a week' is hardly a drain on the resources of the system...this is a massive lie...

Generational poverty is a difficult situation to escape...as it means more privation, on top of an already privated life and upbringing...while billionaires fill filing cabinets of tax consultants with deductions which tax payers pay for...pretty handy huh?!...oh, and legal too!

It's a shameful exposee of humanity when a boat is sinking, and people assume those that are not boat-board, should be able to get themselves into the boat by themselves...

The obscene pay packets of heads of corporation, banks etc would easily give a leg up to the needy, all 'round the world - a nerdily intelligent society is not one that has any emotional intelligence, and without it, we have this bleeding festering wound of welfare familes, created by 'intelligence'?

Spare me...

A99



posted on Oct, 22 2012 @ 01:32 AM
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I am sorry, I didn't watch the whole thing. It was obvious after a few minutes that this is more twisted propaganda.
It's like that silly tale of the experiment done in schools, which is carried out with complete ignorance, and fed to the ignorant.

I have direct experience with these forementioned european countries, and their systems DO work. You just cannot deny that, the stats are there.
Gee, why is that? It should be clear, watching videos like this, and listening to stories of experiments done by kids where the whole class got the same grade on tests, that it is IMPOSSIBLE! People will be egotistical indivdualist jerks, because that is our inherent nature, so.... is it magic then?

The factor being convieniently ignored here is the CULTURE. The collective value systems, that are passed on from generation to generation, often very eary in life, and conditioned as a base for their shared world view. In many of these countries, that part of a persons education is called the "maternal" education. Partly because it is conditioned early in life, much through observation and mimickry (example), and in sublte ways by the mother.

Father teaches you what is officially allowed by the brain of the society, mother teaches you what is right and wrong by the heart of it.

In the US, we are conditioned to be individualists and separate ourself from the rest of society. That is nurture, not nature.
In these other countries, they are conditioned to consider solidarity with your countrymen as necessary and important. The well being of my fellow countryman is essential to MY well being. People don't sit and stay on welfare, because of this social conscience. People don't complain about helping another get back on their feet.
If you ask them, "Don't you mind paying for someone elses medical care/financial aid?"

They look at you bewildered and say, "No, of course not! Because they pay(paid) for mine! "

It's funny how you have less problem giving someone else a hand when you yourself have had it done for you before. You almost WANT to, out of memory of how grateful you were and how much that helped. If you have a sense of relating to the others.

Most Americans I know can only relate this way to their immediate family members- they would feel that conscience taking advantage of their parents, or siblings, but not of their neighbor. We are TAUGHT a lack of social conscience.

It is that which makes the outcome different in the experiments and models proposed to illustrate social programs.
The kids in the class that all get the same grade? The ones who worked harder and deserved a better grade would put peer pressure on the others to work harder- and they would comply, because they are conditioned to be team players and CARE. The esteem of their fellow team mates is MORE important to them than the voice of the authority figure. (that is a big difference, think about it...)

Though I agree that such systems would not work in the US, I do not think it is because there is an inherent flaw in them as systems, but because they are incompatible with the individualist egotistical values that we have been engraving in our minds for centuries there. We have become too egotistical to play the game fairly.
That is not a result of nature though, it is nurture.



posted on Oct, 22 2012 @ 01:58 AM
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reply to post by ModernAcademia
 


It's simple math that people refuse to see. I, like another poster, have experiance in these EU Nations and can tell you without a doubt. THEY DO NOT WORK! This video is not propaganda, it's common sense.

The simple answer that many choose to ignore are the Austerity protests. The people have been getting freebies for so long, they don't want off the gov't teat. But the money is just not there anymore.

It's as simple as that.

You may have noticed that I used the word "simple" a lot in this post. That is because I am a firm believer in the KISS principle.

"Keep It Simple, Stupid!"



posted on Oct, 22 2012 @ 02:04 AM
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Originally posted by TDawgRex
reply to post by ModernAcademia
 


It's simple math that people refuse to see. I, like another poster, have experiance in these EU Nations and can tell you without a doubt. THEY DO NOT WORK! This video is not propaganda, it's common sense.

The simple answer that many choose to ignore are the Austerity protests. The people have been getting freebies for so long, they don't want off the gov't teat. But the money is just not there anymore.

It's as simple as that.

You may have noticed that I used the word "simple" a lot in this post. That is because I am a firm believer in the KISS principle.

"Keep It Simple, Stupid!"



I think it's as simple as...someone took the money...
Reasons for the global financial crisis?

A99



posted on Oct, 22 2012 @ 02:14 AM
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reply to post by akushla99
 

by "bare minimum" i am refering to the basics, food, shelter. instead of a debit card that they can use for most things and are able to draw cash from an atm. they should be provided with food coupons like the w.i.c recipients. there are coupons for milk, beans, cereal , juice, cheese, eggs,etc etc. one of the things that bother me most is going grocery shopping,and seeing some person with a grocery cart full of soda, chips and the like, filled to the rim, and swiping their bridge card. what was the old adage , give someone a hand up, not a hand out?



posted on Oct, 22 2012 @ 02:20 AM
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Originally posted by TDawgRex
reply to post by ModernAcademia
 


It's simple math that people refuse to see. I, like another poster, have experiance in these EU Nations and can tell you without a doubt. THEY DO NOT WORK! This video is not propaganda, it's common sense.

The simple answer that many choose to ignore are the Austerity protests. The people have been getting freebies for so long, they don't want off the gov't teat. But the money is just not there anymore.

It's as simple as that.


Yeah that does sound simple, simple is good for lazy brains.
Could you please back up this claim with some evidence? I haven't seen any of it coming out of Denmark, Finland, Holland, Austria, Sweden, etc.

I know lots of people from these countries and they do not share the same view of what is going on there.

Another aspect of such systems, and what I suspect has a lot more to do with Americans repulsion to it) is that there is a trade off- if you recieve help, then you mst accept the guidance. Freedom is EARNED, not a "God given right". If you are on welfare, you are obligated to be in programs which find work training for you, make you go to classes to learn various skills, your money isn't given to you in a chunk- your rent is paid directly to your landlord, it doesn't pass by you. You have a social worker coming daily who directs your organization at home, how you spend, how you use your time and your job hunting activity.

This also makes for more jobs- more of the people are part of this system, which makes less of a separation between the people and the government- they don't consider that "the government" is paying them, but the people are, and the people are enforcing the rest of the obligations and limits that go with that aid.

You'd be surprised how quickly having such control on you makes you want to become autonomous.

But in the US we tell every lazy brained beer drinking tv watcher that they have the freedom to do whatever they want no matter what, because God said so. Simple as that.



posted on Oct, 22 2012 @ 02:25 AM
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I'm simply astonished that people believe that the austerity protests are a result of people feeling "entitled". I believe they are a result of the global financial crisis being caused by the banks; now the workers and average citizens are going to have to pay for the mess the bankers created, while the bankers themselves get a free ride.

Why can bankers and elite CEO's steal from countries and drive entire economies into bankruptcy as a result of their gambling; but when the average citizen and worker stands up to the government because they don't want to pay for the mess the bankers created, they get labeled as lazy leeches who depend on the government?



posted on Oct, 22 2012 @ 02:30 AM
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Originally posted by IsawWHATtheyDID
reply to post by akushla99
 

by "bare minimum" i am refering to the basics, food, shelter. instead of a debit card that they can use for most things and are able to draw cash from an atm. they should be provided with food coupons like the w.i.c recipients. there are coupons for milk, beans, cereal , juice, cheese, eggs,etc etc. one of the things that bother me most is going grocery shopping,and seeing some person with a grocery cart full of soda, chips and the like, filled to the rim, and swiping their bridge card. what was the old adage , give someone a hand up, not a hand out?


I know what You're saying...and I don't believe that mickey mouse bandaid has ever worked, except in war situations
...it is warm and fuzzy though, I'll grant that...

The super wealthy (in comparison) live in a reality which is opulent, extravagant and obscene beyond belief...so obscene it is jaw dropping...

Why should a multinational corporation on the 'brink' recieve a 'bailout' again?...but, the local grocery store being squeezed by the multinational recieving a 'bailout', does not qualify?

The problem is not what people are buying with 'tax stamps'...the problem is, why do they need tax stamps to begin with?

A99



posted on Oct, 22 2012 @ 02:49 AM
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reply to post by Bluesma
 


Ok, cool...I'm lazy in your opinion.

But things in Europe are heating up. The Austerity cuts are affecting people and they are not happy are they.

When I say I abide by the KISS priciple, I mean that by keeping things Black and White. No room for the grey area. That's were emotions are involved.

Life really is simple if you don't take things personally.

Do I depend upon the Gov't...yeppers. But I also take a measure of personnel responsibility as well.
edit on 22-10-2012 by TDawgRex because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 22 2012 @ 02:57 AM
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Originally posted by TDawgRex
reply to post by Bluesma
 


Ok, cool...I'm lazy in your opinion.

But things in Europe are heating up. The Austerity cuts are affecting people and they are not happy are they.

When I say I abide by the KISS priciple, I mean that by keeping things Black and White. No room for they grey area.

Life really is simple if you don't take things personally.

Do I depend upon the Gov't...yeppers. But I also take a measure of personnel responsibility as well.


Admirable qualities!

Depending on the government is depending on the people...the government has no money except what is given to them in taxes...if awesomely wealthy individuals and corporations decide to pay thier fair share, there would be a problem removed...question of supply and demand...simple economics...simple...

But then how could we afford the penthouse and the yacht and the room-to-room piped music and the private zoo and the 400acre property and the 6 top of the line luxury cars and the antique auto museum pieces we collect...I know! Lets get other people to pay for them!

A99
edit on 22-10-2012 by akushla99 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 22 2012 @ 03:31 AM
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Originally posted by TDawgRex
reply to post by Bluesma
 


Ok, cool...I'm lazy in your opinion.


I didn't say you were lazy, it might be a good idea to refrain from taking things personally, for the reasons you described.
I said simplistic ideas and explanations attract the lazy minds- a person using them doesn't have to be lazy him/her self, but is most likely intending to attract the lazy minds out there.




But things in Europe are heating up. The Austerity cuts are affecting people and they are not happy are they.



You need to do some research on that- on which countries are having those problems. You will find it is more in the southern (mostly latin based ) countries than in the northern (mostly scandinavian) ones which were brought up as examples. There is cultural reasons for that.

But you seem to be under the false impression that the ones complaining are on welfare aid or something? I can tell you from direct experience that that is NOT the case!! It is largely the owners of commerce and enterprise, and middle class, who understand that austerity will slow down or stop growth of the economy. The poorer peoples and the less educated don't really get this, and tend to be in favor of austerity, along the simple lines of "if you have money troubles, just stop spending"- which is valid on the scale of one individual and their personal finances. But the workings of an economic system of many countries, and banking as it is today, is much more complicated than that and the solutions are not always the same.

On your personal situation, I don't wish to go there and do not want to comment on it, I prefer keeping discussions here away from judging individuals. You are free to share with me what you like, but please do not confuse my commentary as being about your personal life.



posted on Oct, 22 2012 @ 03:56 AM
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reply to post by muse7
 


I work for a living, and the working poor ..yes they might need assistance, not an existance, help them , don't do it all for them...
If your on assistance, and get PG, you lose assistance, you can't take care of yourself, so why are you so irresponsible to bring another life in the word that you can't care for??
That also means no free cell phones if your on assistance, you get no internet provided either, hey there is free wifi at taco bell and mcdonalds, why not use it while you fill out an application for employment!!!! .. welfare for food and then again for school lunches too??? we just gave you $$ for food , pack that kid a lunch.
Alcohol, and tobacco..is a no no, you can buy it you don't need assistance...food at the store should be pre set you get bag A, bag B or bag C....no name brand items, bags are basics for you to cook a meal..no pre made anything... no nice cuts of steak, sorry its tax dollars and you never earned it, it is free so stop complaining or you get nothing, sorry thats just how it should be and I hope how it gets soon.

There are those that truely do need it and thats fine, but so many of you don't and use it as a crutch that is makes me sick, I would just as soon you say thank you to us that pay for your existance and try to better yourself and earn your way in life, if not just go away
Sorry that is so harsh, but people always want something for nothing, thats a huge down fall of our country in the last 20-40 years...



posted on Oct, 22 2012 @ 08:42 AM
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reply to post by Bluesma
 


I probably should have clarified, but I'm not saying you think I'm lazy, but I have had others tell me that they think my way is the lazy way out. I just hate the grey area when it comes to gov't and laws. It should be black and white and easily understood by all.

During my eight years in Germany though it was always the downtrodden (or skinheads) that were always causing problems. I do understand that the majority of the problems are down south as well, but believe that they will spread north.

PIIGS is just the beginning...but that is just my opinion, and I've been know to be wrong before. Merkel and Co. just seem to be kicking the can down the road.

And American politicians are right there kicking their own can as well.

It'll all come to a head soon I think.



posted on Oct, 22 2012 @ 10:47 AM
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reply to post by akushla99
 


I am in no way, in favor of bailing corporations out. in my opinion, by people going to the government for help, they feed the government. the gov amasses more power, gives out more entitlements, amasses more power, on and on and on. they have bought all this power with the peoples sweat and blood. and keep taking from the people in the name of equality, when what they are actually doing is buying votes. if people would be self dependent, find other ways to get out of the situations they are in, we would not have this runaway government that can do what ever they want with the peoples property. i.e give millions of dollars of someone elses money to some corporation. , kill people in the name of democracy. make the government dependent on the people , not the other way around.




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