Are People Worth Helping?

In the long run, I think that how people answer this question, individually, shows what they really think of themselves. Projection.

For all of the conversations I have had on ATS, and in real life, for that matter, with social Darwninsts, I have yet to encounter a single one who said "You know what? When I became eligible I stood my ground and refused to accept my Social Security". In my experience those who preach against such things end up cashing their checks just like those they hated on for the first x number of years of their lives.

It's easy to marginalize others. It is quite another thing when your day comes to be marginalized.

I guess "there but for the grace..." requires an attention span longer than ~right now~, making it inconvenient in this world of instant gratification and total sensory immersion and satiation.

In my humble opinion the downfall of the human race came when the first video game came out and began teaching us that it's easier to "restart" than to keep going. It robbed us of some primal sense of the permanent and absolute. It instilled us with a moral ambiguity and turpitude that I would like to believe did not always exist.

Now it's Logans Run... throwaway people living throwaway lives - ignorant of the fact that, eventually tomorrow will become today.

~Heff

People are worth helping, sure they are.

Originally posted by razorman
Suffering can be a great teacher!!!

reply to post by Ralphy

 

You would want help.

You might think if only things hadn't gone a certain way, you might have been able to grab a hold of a destiny but things took a certain turn and now you are stuck, fortunate to even make it the store to buy some groceries.

Who's right is it to displace your destiny because they found you to be "not worthwhile" when they crossed your path, denying you of chances you might have... had you been someone else.

All of society is built on a falsehood that ANY man owns ANY part of this world... because they do not and they continue to prove this by not taking it with them when they go.

Importance can be a big deception. t might also not be your place to teach suffering. It might have been your place to extend opportunity and you dropped the ball, where for other reasons, you might not have.

reply to post by Hefficide

In the long run, I think that how people answer this question, individually, shows what they really think of themselves. Projection.

Get out of my head!

Waiting for the second page to load I had this exact thought. In a recent post I had apologized to a poster saying something along the lines of "I apologize if my words came off sounding arrogant or argumentative, that was not the intent behind them". After reading there following response it became apparent how easy it was for me to project my emotions onto that individual.

Granted, my projection was one of respect to that individuals belief. I wanted to make sure they understood my words were not an attack. It is easy to feel attacked when something you hold close to your heart is challenged and to only be reading words off a page makes tone very hard to imply.

Could you imagine what events would transpire if we were to project other emotions such as hate, anger, etc? Take a look at the world around us for an idea. Replace one individual with billions of people and there you go, welcome to planet earth.

In my humble opinion the downfall of the human race came when the first video game came out and began teaching us that it's easier to "restart" than to keep going. It robbed us of some primal sense of the permanent and absolute. It instilled us with a moral ambiguity and turpitude that I would like to believe did not always exist.

In my humble opinion I disagree.

Some of the best memories of my father come from us playing video games together. I see video games no less harmful than the TV shows kids are exposed to at such a young age. I also believe they help keep the activity more "interactive" if you will. The brain waves stay more active as opposed to slipping into a near comatose state while watching TV. Also with the new consoles like the Wii, they are integrating physical movement into the games. Physical movement is next to none while watching TV, and exercise is important.

Originally posted by SparkOfSparks6
Don't pity, Don't help, Don't influence, Don't offer, but what you must do is Show.

So, it's January, a friend needs a place for a couple of weeks and can't afford rent. You shouldn't pity, shouldn't help, shouldn't influence, shouldn't offer anything, but you should show them how it's done : you work and pay rent, and have a place to show for it. Right? Some good Samaratan there!

Pithy, but not very good advice.

reply to post by Hefficide


I would also like to add we have the concept of "death" that would be imbedded within the child's mind and would supersede the "reset button" idea from becoming to lodged in a young mind.

reply to post by Northwarden


Well lets say your pal needs help but not for any of the reasons you mention. Maybe some foul thing fell upon him. Although granted its not often the case.

Originally posted by MyHappyDogShiner
To help is fine,but the help you provide sometimes does nothing more than enable more of the problem behaviour.

You must consider ways to be a catalyst for positive change,because you are useless if you weaken yourself to help another.

What of the parable of the widow who gave generously from what she had left, her poverty? Please don't think to help anyone at your own expense. It's been my observations and conclusion that Most people requiring help don't want advice, or influential ideas; they need money, food, etc., not a trestise on life.

Society is too dysfunctional and unfairly proportioned to not have compassion or sympathy, and anyone who has had hard times knows that those who choose to trample anothers dignity when someone is down compared to those who help as generous givers will not be remembered when things turn around.

You do not help a wild animal by feeding it,eventually it will come to you for it's food,forget how to get it's own food,become domesticated and weak,and may die without your help.

There are 360 degrees in a circle,and 360 perspectives something can be viewed from,if you restrict youself to degrees.

Feeding an animal will help it in the short term, which it needed to reach the next days of it's life and to live them effectively. If you neglect what you could have offered for the sake of concern over "debilitating it's foraging skills" - that would take many weeks of feeding - you are only making excuses not to help. Each to their own.

Apply that ideology to hunams and that sounds like an arguement for slashing social nets, regardless of spending.

How can your perspective ever incorporate 360 degrees of 360 (100% I gather) perspectives? Our limited consciences are unfortunately limited to degrees, no matter our scope. Privacy guarantees that most of otherpeoples perspectives are off limits until you actively seek them out, or sort anothers viewpoint out based on an accurate assessment of what they represent, which requires training, empathy, time, determination and a good grounding in sanity to begin with. It also takes the ability to recall the details. If I could remember even 50% of all the perspectives I have at one point understood only 20% of the time, I'm sure I'd be a multi-millionaire by now, with money enough for thousands of soup kitchens. Let's hear Realistic statements please

Every person is unique and has worth and value in my eyes.. People will rarely remember what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel.

When you make a positive impact in someone else’s life, you also make a positive impact in your own life..Everyone values the gift of unexpected assistance and those who supply it...

I believe by putting others first, every aspect of your life can take on new meaning..In a nut shell i love helping others its good karma..peace,sugarcookie1

Unlike Hefficide, I don't believe Social Security is "asking for help". To me, it's something we paid into all of our lives under the false presumption that the government was investing our money for our retirement years. Little did we know they were siphoning the funds to pay for wars and such. So, my answers below do not include Social Security BENEFITS.

The old saying, "Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he'll eat for a lifetime" just doesn't cut the mustard either.

Hypothetical Callous Scenarios:

1. "You've got no arms, no legs, no prosthetics ... but I TAUGHT you how to fish so it's your own fault."

2. I saw a homeless man, unable to stand because of starvation, about to slit his wrist with a rusty old tuna can lid. I got the feeling he was a Gulf War veteran who returned home and was unable to find work. But hey! Toss him a fishing book and tell him his condition is all of his own making.

3. I taught the man how to fish and he died anyway. Maybe I should have bought him a fishing pole, hooks and bait?

So, hopefully these awful scenarios above show the old saying sounds cool; but, is impractical.

Next, no, I wouldn't ask for help - not because of pride - I wouldn't ask for help because when society let's things get THAT bad that one needs to ask for help, it's not worth living anymore.

Yes, I've consistantly helped and consistantly found out my help was squandered. Examples follow.

1. Donated extra to the local fire department to help cover the wildfires here last year. Guess what? They WHOLE department were inbred, related crooks who stole all the donations for themselves. Yes, they all went to jail ... but, then the Volunteer Fire Department voted in yet ANOTHER relative crook! After he was tossed in jail, they tried again to raise funds. So, do you play the fool for the third time and give or not?

2. Thanksgiving Dinner - I spent every penny I had to buy the required (by the program) stuff and delivered it to the recipient family. I spent MY personal Thanksgiving dinner money on this reasoning that a person in bad times needed a cheer-me-up more than me. So, first, it took nearly a dozen phone calls to arrange the transfer of goods (The whole turkey and all the trimmings which included everything.) and the people simply didn't have TIME for me! They finally agreed to get their groceries a few days AFTER Thanksgiving. They had a huge, rich house and huge gas-guzzling car, clothing fit for Hollywood etc. And they had put THEIR name on the list of needy families! They couldn't meet me on Turkey Day as they were having their OWN Turkey Dinner. I had none that year.

3. I had just been at a meeting and a man there asked me to watch out for "anybody who needed a full-time job". He needed employees, great pay, nice boss, benefits. No experience, education, or any other requirements. Okay, no problem. I see a homeless man with a sign that says. "Will work for food." I stop to give the man the card for the employer-to-be, a donation and offer a ride to the place of employment and back to wherever he wanted afterwards. He did NOT want the card or other offers. He didn't even want to HEAR about the cool job! He was "going home".

I could go on with many more examples, but, three examples are enough I think.

The point is - yes, I'd do it all again because WHAT IF?

What if ... ?

reply to post by Logarock


There's usually a reason, becauseour westerm society is trained to divide and conquer, catagorizing people according to their aspirations or lack of means, and labelling them for the complicit influence that provides regarding other social peers. No one wants to be labelled "free-loader", "bum", "skid", etc.

I like how my friends once handled it ... once a year they announced "Scoundrel Week", where they burned bridges with those who were taking advantage of good nature. That expresses a good degree of patience in regards to he rest of the year, and indicates a festering of relations which was apathy on the part of certain unnamed individuals. ( & No, not meaning myself)!

reply to post by AwakeANDreaming

It is easy to feel attacked when something you hold close to your heart is challenged and to only be reading words off a page makes tone very hard to imply. Could you imagine what events would transpire if we were to project other emotions such as hate, anger, etc? Take a look at the world around us for an idea. Replace one individual with billions of people and there you go, welcome to planet earth.

After stopping into the debate thread for a moment this is surely how we ended up in this situation. Consciousness creates and projects those emotions onto the screen we call reality. Someone be brave enough to stop in and tell those guys to relax and play nice!

I told them but saying such things is a violation apparently. Oops ! lol

reply to post by Trexter Ziam


To be clear.. I don't think that Social Security is a hand-out. I was discussing those that I argue against, and the things that they say. I argue the same, or a similar view to what you've stated here.

~Heff

Some people have reservations about helping people that they feel might not appreciate the help, which is a valid concern. Could these people still get our help with the outcome that we get the satisfaction of helping someone, regardless if they appreciate it or not?

Originally posted by Ralphy
Some people have reservations about helping people that they feel might not appreciate the help, which is a valid concern.

Could these people still get our help with the outcome that we get the satisfaction of helping someone, regardless if they appreciate it or not?

I broke your reply into 2 parts because I do not understand your question really.

1. If a person does NOT ask for help and they are given help, it's often taken by them as an 'insult.' To some, it's a 'pride' insult, to others it's a 'dignity' insult, and to others it's a freedom of choice and/or privacy issue.

2. If a person DOES ask for help and then slaps the helper in the face for giving them exactly what they asked for ... then YES, it does 'put off' the helper. It's a risk that helper-types need to realize and accept or else stop being a helper-type. Not all people are cut-out to be helper-types and that is perfectly okay too. Either way, know yourself, then accept or change yourself.

As for your question, if I understand it correctly, my response is a question-to-the-question as I personally do NOT believe that the goal of giving is for the giver to have some sort of 'satisfaction' or 'appreciation'. The goal of giving or helping should be to alleviate the suffering of others and to share the abundance humanely without reward.

So, do you feel the goal of giving or helping is self-satisfaction and appreciation? If so, why?

Originally posted by Trexter Ziam

As for your question, if I understand it correctly, my response is a question-to-the-question as I personally do NOT believe that the goal of giving is for the giver to have some sort of 'satisfaction' or 'appreciation'. The goal of giving or helping should be to alleviate the suffering of others and to share the abundance humanely without reward.

So, do you feel the goal of giving or helping is self-satisfaction and appreciation? If so, why?

edit on 23/10/2012 by Trexter Ziam because: (no reason given)

I would want to ask why a person wouldn't feel good after helping someone. Having a goal of getting satisfaction from helping someone doesn't do any harm. It is impossible for us to do actions without seeking an outcome, the only exception is those who don't want to admit it.

Originally posted by Ralphy

Originally posted by Trexter Ziam
As for your question, if I understand it correctly, my response is a question-to-the-question as I personally do NOT believe that the goal of giving is for the giver to have some sort of 'satisfaction' or 'appreciation'. The goal of giving or helping should be to alleviate the suffering of others and to share the abundance humanely without reward.
So, do you feel the goal of giving or helping is self-satisfaction and appreciation? If so, why?

I would want to ask why a person wouldn't feel good after helping someone. Having a goal of getting satisfaction from helping someone doesn't do any harm. It is impossible for us to do actions without seeking an outcome, the only exception is those who don't want to admit it.

A few of the OTHER exceptions are:

Helper has too much and is over-whelmed with all that they do have.

Helper owes a debt for having received help in the past or is hopeful that they would receive like-help in future unexpected time-of-need.

Helper has learned just how UNFAIR and unpredictable life is. (empathy)

Helper feels what comes around, goes around.

Helper has conquered their own ego.

Helper has less of a "us vs. them" outlook than most normal people have.

Helper feels as though they are a drop in the pond and that we are ALL water. So, one water drop touching another water drop is only natural.

reply to post by Trexter Ziam


You make some good points with exceptions which is why we shouldn't look down on those who don't help others because we don't know their situation.

reply to post by Trexter Ziam
I have know "helpers" that were not worth taking help from.