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Children to be taught 'heterosexuality not the norm' in Australian schools project
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FINAL REMINDER!
This thread is about
"Children to be taught 'heterosexuality not the norm' in Australian schools project"
It is not about bullying, the priesthood or Jimmy Saville.
Failure to stay on topic will result in the thread being closed.
Thread closed temporarily to allow member to read this post and
www.abovetopsecret.com...
edit on Mon Oct 22 2012 by DontTreadOnMe because: (no reason given)
reply to post by DontTreadOnMe
Sometimes I may write OTT things here on ATS or on other sites... I admit that my anger sometimes gets the better of me, so I thought I'd post just to say I apologize to those who may feel persecuted by my posts!
My views on certain Topics may come across as Right Wing but nope, I'm Right of Center but I can't help it when people post stupid stuff which annoys me and Subjects entice me in to see what the thread is about when perhaps I should just stay away from the thread but its very difficult when the Subject line is pulling me in.... There are also Topics which are non-political but are just plain stupid and I have to say what is on my mind!
I think some threads are posted on purpose to really anger some of us or make us revolt!! Some things I write are also taken the wrong way by many here on ATS and this annoys the hell outta me...
Well... as I say its something I shall try to avoid and I am now out of this thread unless someone pulls me back in by replying to this post which needs a reply from myself.
Maybe I should copy and Paste this post into other Forums where I might say something which comes across as Nasty, Sick, Dispicable etc etc....
FCK it.... I'm a nice guy!!
Sometimes I may write OTT things here on ATS or on other sites... I admit that my anger sometimes gets the better of me, so I thought I'd post just to say I apologize to those who may feel persecuted by my posts!
My views on certain Topics may come across as Right Wing but nope, I'm Right of Center but I can't help it when people post stupid stuff which annoys me and Subjects entice me in to see what the thread is about when perhaps I should just stay away from the thread but its very difficult when the Subject line is pulling me in.... There are also Topics which are non-political but are just plain stupid and I have to say what is on my mind!
I think some threads are posted on purpose to really anger some of us or make us revolt!! Some things I write are also taken the wrong way by many here on ATS and this annoys the hell outta me...
Well... as I say its something I shall try to avoid and I am now out of this thread unless someone pulls me back in by replying to this post which needs a reply from myself.
Maybe I should copy and Paste this post into other Forums where I might say something which comes across as Nasty, Sick, Dispicable etc etc....
FCK it.... I'm a nice guy!!
edit on 22-10-2012 by TruthxIsxInxThexMist because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
"Children to be taught 'heterosexuality not the norm' in Australian schools project"
And I would just like to remind people also, that this thread is built on a media sensationalist lie.
Children are not being taught this thing, there is no implimentation of it in the future, and the Education minister has even stated specifically that ...
...the steering committee material "will not be approved by the Department of Education for use in NSW classrooms".
I'm going to side with the OP on this one.
It's obvious that heterosexuality IS indeed the bar. It IS the normal, sexual orientation of atleast 80% (and that's an under estimation just in case) of the world. To debate otherwise is absurd. It is how we reproduce - it is WHY we have females and males. If it weren't, we'd all be a-sexual and could reproduce with any partner. However, we are heterosexual, not a-sexual.
People keep equating sexual orientation to skin color. That is a false comparison because there is no conclusive proof homosexuality is determined at birth. There is some scientific evidence that suggests hormone levels in the mother or other pherimones the fetus might be exposed to *might* cause an unborn child to prefer homosexuality - but none of it is conclusive. It's all annecdotal. Therefore, without conclusive proof one is born homosexual (or rather, with a sexual preference at all because it hasn't been proven that one is born heterosexual either) we can only conclude that a combination of factors, including environmental, economical, familial relations et al., causes one to develop a sexual preference.
Comparing the above to something like skin color which is self evident is misleading and doesn't help.
Teaching children that a minority sexual orientation (and it is a minority - remember 80% of the population are hetero) is the "normal" is also misleading. Again, you can't compare this to the race argument because there is no one set of conditions that decide which race would be "normal" as compared to heterosexuality whereas there is clearly a defined set of conditions that make it so (biological reproduction).
Should we be teaching kids tolerance of other sexual preference? Certainly. We should respect each others choices. We are meant to be free human beings who want to live as we choose to decide and we should not be oppressing people simply because of their sexual preference.
With that said, this proposed legislature in Australia is misleading. We should be upfront to our children about their choices in life. Teach heterosexuality as the normal, majority means of traditional relationships and reproduction, and that there are other choices such as homosexuality, bi-sexuality and trans-gendered as alternative choices if heterosexuality doesn't feel right.
I feel it is best left up the parents to guide their children as they see fit. The job of the school is to teach facts and knowledge - not set policy on what is normal and what is not.
It's obvious that heterosexuality IS indeed the bar. It IS the normal, sexual orientation of atleast 80% (and that's an under estimation just in case) of the world. To debate otherwise is absurd. It is how we reproduce - it is WHY we have females and males. If it weren't, we'd all be a-sexual and could reproduce with any partner. However, we are heterosexual, not a-sexual.
People keep equating sexual orientation to skin color. That is a false comparison because there is no conclusive proof homosexuality is determined at birth. There is some scientific evidence that suggests hormone levels in the mother or other pherimones the fetus might be exposed to *might* cause an unborn child to prefer homosexuality - but none of it is conclusive. It's all annecdotal. Therefore, without conclusive proof one is born homosexual (or rather, with a sexual preference at all because it hasn't been proven that one is born heterosexual either) we can only conclude that a combination of factors, including environmental, economical, familial relations et al., causes one to develop a sexual preference.
Comparing the above to something like skin color which is self evident is misleading and doesn't help.
Teaching children that a minority sexual orientation (and it is a minority - remember 80% of the population are hetero) is the "normal" is also misleading. Again, you can't compare this to the race argument because there is no one set of conditions that decide which race would be "normal" as compared to heterosexuality whereas there is clearly a defined set of conditions that make it so (biological reproduction).
Should we be teaching kids tolerance of other sexual preference? Certainly. We should respect each others choices. We are meant to be free human beings who want to live as we choose to decide and we should not be oppressing people simply because of their sexual preference.
With that said, this proposed legislature in Australia is misleading. We should be upfront to our children about their choices in life. Teach heterosexuality as the normal, majority means of traditional relationships and reproduction, and that there are other choices such as homosexuality, bi-sexuality and trans-gendered as alternative choices if heterosexuality doesn't feel right.
I feel it is best left up the parents to guide their children as they see fit. The job of the school is to teach facts and knowledge - not set policy on what is normal and what is not.
reply to post by Wonderer2012
Like you said i have nothing against gays and i fully support their right to marry. But their is something that is fishy about this movement.and you know that when the mass media consistently bombards you with something it usually has a hidden agenda. Do you think that this might be a system of population control?
Like you said i have nothing against gays and i fully support their right to marry. But their is something that is fishy about this movement.and you know that when the mass media consistently bombards you with something it usually has a hidden agenda. Do you think that this might be a system of population control?
edit on 22-10-2012 by ninjas4321 because: (no reason given)
reply to post by DontTreadOnMe
My apologies to the mods as well as the members, for allowing myself to get off topic in responding to some posts.
Sometimes it is difficult to not sway from the exact topic of the thread, without bringing in other points, that I feel are linked to the thread title, in some form or another, whether some agree with that or not.
I will try harder to respond with on topic replies, as well as disregard off topic comments.
My apologies to the mods as well as the members, for allowing myself to get off topic in responding to some posts.
Sometimes it is difficult to not sway from the exact topic of the thread, without bringing in other points, that I feel are linked to the thread title, in some form or another, whether some agree with that or not.
I will try harder to respond with on topic replies, as well as disregard off topic comments.
Originally posted by Wonderer2012
I for one am sick and tired of seeing this agenda playing out. I'm not homophobic in any way whatsoever, I know gay people, but it is wrong to promote the idea that homosexuality is normal. We know it is not right, it is not natural. I may come across as contradictory with that but I honestly do not mind if someone is gay, but at the same time you cannot 'educate' children into thinking it is normal. We all know it is not normal and it almost certainly is not natural.
If people are gay, then let them be so but don't indoctrinate young children into making them think it is right and normal.
A similar program is already in use in Victoria, called the “Safe Schools Coalition” to “support sexual diversity”.
Proud Schools recommends using Personal Development, Health, and Physical Education classes, starting in Year 7 (12- and 13-year-olds), to “incorporate learning about same-sex attraction and sexual diversity.”
The Telegraph’s Miranda Devine wrote that “at least” 10 Liberal Party MPs are “extremely concerned” about the program, and will complain to Education Minister Adrian Piccoli this week.
Devine quoted Upper house MP Fred Nile who called the program “propaganda” and asked the government to defund the program.
“I’m totally opposed to the brainwashing of high school students, especially when they are going through puberty,” Nile said. “Homosexuals at most make up 2 percent of the population - I don’t know why the education department would give priority to promoting this.
“We will have more confused teenagers than ever…children should be allowed to develop themselves,” he said.
As mentioned above, children going through puberty are learning about themselves and developing, education should not be indoctrinating them to think homosexuality is normal.
What do you think?
www.lifesitenews.com
(visit the link for the full news article)edit on 21-10-2012 by Wonderer2012 because: (no reason given)edit on 21-10-2012 by Wonderer2012 because: (no reason given)
Apparently you are 'educating' the readers of this thread that "we all know it's not natural and not right" which is just as much of an opinion as what you're ranting against. Give me a break.
Originally posted by Wonderer2012
reply to post by SerialVelocity
YOU ARE WRONG
I have never bullied anyone in my life and tolerate gays and treat them equally as human beings, but I do not agree with teaching school children going through PUBERTY that 'HETROSEXISM FEEDS HOMOPHOBIA."
How can you educate children that homsexuality is normal?
Red hair exists in a very small percent of the population - most people don't have red hair, yet red hair is completely normal. I rest my case. Homosexuality has existed forever, and will exist forever. 95% of animal species display it. Therefore, a certain amount of it in our world is normal.
Originally posted by thebtheb
Red hair exists in a very small percent of the population - most people don't have red hair, yet red hair is completely normal. I rest my case. Homosexuality has existed forever, and will exist forever. 95% of animal species display it. Therefore, a certain amount of it in our world is normal.
Exactly - "the norm" is not something that is right or wrong or needs defending - it is simply the most common (currently)
Apparently it is also "the norm" for people to be male, under 50 and not caucasian......
Originally posted by Wonderer2012
I for one am sick and tired of seeing this agenda playing out. I'm not homophobic in any way whatsoever, I know gay people, but it is wrong to promote the idea that homosexuality is normal. We know it is not right, it is not natural.
edit on 21-10-2012 by Wonderer2012 because: (no reason given)
This statement alone says a lot about the type of person you are, you claim not to be homophobic but in the same thought express the fact that homosexuality isn't normal? It's a contradictory statement to start your post, clearly many of the conservative folks here, love contradictions that's why you have so many stars for that post. Anyway if homosexuality isn't 'normal' then why has it always existed? You should consult your holy book since they talked about it then too, it was something that was 'normally' practiced that the church was 'against'. Never mind the parallel between the love of young boys by priests and the love of young boys and men by the muslim community as well, also FYI pedophilia is illegal since the religious fringe forget that as well. It's a natural event that probably happens because of over population. Go tell your 'friends' who are gay that it isn't natural, although I doubt you have a single gay 'friend' since that's usually the statement said by conservatives before they say they have a problem with it. "I have friends like that, so that means I can have a derogatory opinion about it!"
reply to post by thebtheb
MY thoughts exactly, anyone thinking that homosexuality isn't a NATURAL occuring event is not thinking clearly or logically, which you explained much more easily then I did. Great post.
MY thoughts exactly, anyone thinking that homosexuality isn't a NATURAL occuring event is not thinking clearly or logically, which you explained much more easily then I did. Great post.
reply to post by mc4denmark
Just seen the warning....
2nd
Just seen the warning....
2nd
edit on 22-10-2012 by DarknStormy because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by Wonderer2012
No, I read some parts of the program and it is clearly saying sexual diversity is to be accepted.
So what? You just said you are not homo-phobic. You even said you know gay people...As if that some how magically makes you not homo-phobic.... Hey, my grandpa knew black people and he was racist as they come....
Again, I ask...So what? Personally I agree that sexual diversity should be accepted. There is nothing wrong with being gay, you know. Or do you disagree? If you do, I challenge your claim that you are not homo-phobic.
It is telling children that sexuality does not matter, that all are equal.
Awesome! What a great thing to teach our children. That all are equal! Whether you are black, white, gay, straight, tall, short, fat thin, man or woman, we are all equal and we should treat each other with respect.
Wait... You find something wrong with teaching equality and fairness? Hmmm... I really do doubt your claims of not being homo-phobic/bigoted.
Take from it what you will-
Seems you've done exactly that... Take from it what you will... Rather than take from it, what is really going on...
The program defines “heterosexism” as the practice of “positioning heterosexuality as the norm for human relationship,” according to the Proud Schools Consultation Report. “It involves ignoring, making invisible or discriminating against non-heterosexual people, their relationships and their interests. Heterosexism feeds homophobia.”
When there is more than one sexual preference... To say that only one of them is "normal"... Well, that is wrong and it IS discriminatory against those who have a sexual preference other than straight.. There is nothing not normal about being gay. Their is nothing wrong with being gay and frankly, it's about time we start teaching EQUALITY and NON-BIAS....FAIRNESS.... These are things I find nothing wrong with.
Do YOU?
Perhaps you really aren't homo-phobic and you really just did not get the point of the program. They are not teaching that it is wrong to be straight. They are teaching that there is nothing wrong with being gay. They are teaching equality and fairness and treating others with respect.
If you find that to be a bad thing, then I suggest your moral compass may need a tune up, my friend.
edit on 22-10-2012 by DirtyLiberalHippie
because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by DirtyLiberalHippie
They are teaching that there is nothing wrong with being gay. They are teaching equality and fairness and treating others with respect.
So in other words they are promoting homosexuality?
If you find that to be a bad thing, then I suggest your moral compass may need a tune up, my friend.
This should of been an issue back in the 70-80's when homosexuals were actually discriminated against. Why is it that now, when nobody could care less about homosexuals and their sexual preferences does this crap suddenly surface whilst being directed at our children?
edit on 22-10-2012 by DarknStormy because: (no reason given)
reply to post by ihavenoaccount
This is my problem. Children, are someones children. The school has no right to indoctrinate someone elses children in a philosophical viewpoint - even if it deals with an issue (one that is hardly as big as it's made out to be) - which opposes the philosophical beliefs of the parents, and the religion the parent and child subscribes to.
Nor is there any concrete connection between adjusting someones view of heterosexuality and homophobia. In fact, one can almost make out a deliberate political agenda underneath the guise of "heterosexism".
I know so many people who don't give any deep thought to the matter, but nevertheless treat homosexuals just like anyone else. However, if asked "Is heterosexuality normal"? They would undoubtedly respond "yes"; because it is not only implied by the logic of natural law, but it is also the outstanding norm in human relationships.
So I see this heterosexist label to be a red herring designed to reshape public perception of sexuality.
I mentioned humility, because, well, do you know the truth? Do I know the truth? What I can admit is, those Jews, Christians and Muslims who see in homosexuality something contraindicated by natural law - and so God's law - definitely have an argument. You would have to willfully blind yourself to not notice it. It's obvious. On the other hand, there are those people who prefer to abstract from the world. To go beneath the surface appearance and question the validity of custom. To them, there is no objective morality, and so no imperative to abide by natures dictates. This perception has a very inchoate structure to it, inasmuch as it has to negate what is apparent in order to come to a decision.
So the first group affirms something present, while the other group negates, and so lives in accord with an entirely human and utilitarian system of morals. Both, have their followers, both have their own internal logics.
A pluralistic society demands tolerance - which means specifically, tolerance of subjects which you disagree with.
Utilitarianism is what underlies both religious and secular morals. We know that murder, theft, rape, etc, is too harmful a vice to go ignored, so we agree to form laws against it. This is the basic crux; we seek to protect ourselves from being unfairly treated. But sexuality ha always been an issue of contention between the "Jewish" ethicists and pagan ethicists. The former demanded the importance for man to abide by natural law. The latter, due to a differing perspective, saw it as immaterial. Hence, in ancient Greece, you can get the impression when reading Plato, or Aristotle, or others, that heterosexuality was done for purely eugenic reasons, while homosexuality was a practice in pure pleasure.
At the end of the day, we live in a world with different perspectives of the same world. I think they have a legitimacy. What's required of every good citizen, every humble human being, is to recognize difference, respect difference, and not seek to impose your perspective on others. Humility is key; the person who decries "heterosexism" is belittling a perspective that is perfectly valid, and he exhibits the same degree of arrogance that a nonreligious person hates to see in the religious fundamentalist.
Children, on the other hand, shouldn't have to face that kind of behaviour in the first place, especially when it could have a detrimental impact on their self-esteem.
This is my problem. Children, are someones children. The school has no right to indoctrinate someone elses children in a philosophical viewpoint - even if it deals with an issue (one that is hardly as big as it's made out to be) - which opposes the philosophical beliefs of the parents, and the religion the parent and child subscribes to.
Nor is there any concrete connection between adjusting someones view of heterosexuality and homophobia. In fact, one can almost make out a deliberate political agenda underneath the guise of "heterosexism".
I know so many people who don't give any deep thought to the matter, but nevertheless treat homosexuals just like anyone else. However, if asked "Is heterosexuality normal"? They would undoubtedly respond "yes"; because it is not only implied by the logic of natural law, but it is also the outstanding norm in human relationships.
So I see this heterosexist label to be a red herring designed to reshape public perception of sexuality.
I mentioned humility, because, well, do you know the truth? Do I know the truth? What I can admit is, those Jews, Christians and Muslims who see in homosexuality something contraindicated by natural law - and so God's law - definitely have an argument. You would have to willfully blind yourself to not notice it. It's obvious. On the other hand, there are those people who prefer to abstract from the world. To go beneath the surface appearance and question the validity of custom. To them, there is no objective morality, and so no imperative to abide by natures dictates. This perception has a very inchoate structure to it, inasmuch as it has to negate what is apparent in order to come to a decision.
So the first group affirms something present, while the other group negates, and so lives in accord with an entirely human and utilitarian system of morals. Both, have their followers, both have their own internal logics.
A pluralistic society demands tolerance - which means specifically, tolerance of subjects which you disagree with.
Utilitarianism is what underlies both religious and secular morals. We know that murder, theft, rape, etc, is too harmful a vice to go ignored, so we agree to form laws against it. This is the basic crux; we seek to protect ourselves from being unfairly treated. But sexuality ha always been an issue of contention between the "Jewish" ethicists and pagan ethicists. The former demanded the importance for man to abide by natural law. The latter, due to a differing perspective, saw it as immaterial. Hence, in ancient Greece, you can get the impression when reading Plato, or Aristotle, or others, that heterosexuality was done for purely eugenic reasons, while homosexuality was a practice in pure pleasure.
At the end of the day, we live in a world with different perspectives of the same world. I think they have a legitimacy. What's required of every good citizen, every humble human being, is to recognize difference, respect difference, and not seek to impose your perspective on others. Humility is key; the person who decries "heterosexism" is belittling a perspective that is perfectly valid, and he exhibits the same degree of arrogance that a nonreligious person hates to see in the religious fundamentalist.
reply to post by DirtyLiberalHippie
Who gets to call the shots and what is "normal" in sexual preference, and what is considered "moral" in sexual preference ?
That equality, and fairness and non biased type of thinking could be stretched to cover many types of sexual preferences.
I have the right to judge what is "morally " respectful for myself, as well as the right to teach that to my children , despite what laws say otherwise, in whatever country...considering many sexual preferences.
And what right do they have to wave their moral compass of what is wrong and what is right ? ..any more than those who believe homosexuality to be wrong ?
Why can't schools and humans just agree that there will be differences of opinions on this, and respect that people have different opinions on what is morally right and wrong...and stay out of trying to teach kids about what is "morally" or "normally" acceptable in sexual preference.
I'm not trying to tell gays or those that agree with you , that they have to think my way, but I certainly don't like being ostracized and bullied because my views may be different...and called some "phobic" because I disagree with it.
Where are the rights for those to have their personal moral compass on ANY sexual preference , without being treated as equal, or "phobic" because of their views. Religion doesn't even have to play a part in it, because their are many sexual preferences that even non religious people shudder at.
When there is more than one sexual preference... To say that only one of them is "normal"... Well, that is wrong and it IS discriminatory against those who have a sexual preference other than straight.. There is nothing not normal about being gay. Their is nothing wrong with being gay and frankly, it's about time we start teaching EQUALITY and NON-BIAS....FAIRNESS.... These are things I find nothing wrong with.
Who gets to call the shots and what is "normal" in sexual preference, and what is considered "moral" in sexual preference ?
That equality, and fairness and non biased type of thinking could be stretched to cover many types of sexual preferences.
I have the right to judge what is "morally " respectful for myself, as well as the right to teach that to my children , despite what laws say otherwise, in whatever country...considering many sexual preferences.
Perhaps you really aren't homo-phobic and you really just did not get the point of the program. They are not teaching that it is wrong to be straight. They are teaching that there is nothing wrong with being gay. They are teaching equality and fairness and treating others with respect.
And what right do they have to wave their moral compass of what is wrong and what is right ? ..any more than those who believe homosexuality to be wrong ?
Why can't schools and humans just agree that there will be differences of opinions on this, and respect that people have different opinions on what is morally right and wrong...and stay out of trying to teach kids about what is "morally" or "normally" acceptable in sexual preference.
I'm not trying to tell gays or those that agree with you , that they have to think my way, but I certainly don't like being ostracized and bullied because my views may be different...and called some "phobic" because I disagree with it.
Where are the rights for those to have their personal moral compass on ANY sexual preference , without being treated as equal, or "phobic" because of their views. Religion doesn't even have to play a part in it, because their are many sexual preferences that even non religious people shudder at.
reply to post by DirtyLiberalHippie
Wonderful post, happy there seem to be more logical people here then illogical. Happy to see that the tides are turning.
Wonderful post, happy there seem to be more logical people here then illogical. Happy to see that the tides are turning.
reply to post by DirtyLiberalHippie
Do you know what phobic means? It means "suffering from irrational fears"
You can acknowledge something to be inimical, say, death, without suffering from an irrational fear of it.
Likewise, you can acknowledge the existence of homosexuals, treat them with respect, and still consider homosexuality to be an aberration, abnormal, without suffering from an irrational fear of it.
homo-phobic
Do you know what phobic means? It means "suffering from irrational fears"
You can acknowledge something to be inimical, say, death, without suffering from an irrational fear of it.
Likewise, you can acknowledge the existence of homosexuals, treat them with respect, and still consider homosexuality to be an aberration, abnormal, without suffering from an irrational fear of it.
Originally posted by DarknStormy
Originally posted by DirtyLiberalHippie
They are teaching that there is nothing wrong with being gay. They are teaching equality and fairness and treating others with respect.
So in other words they are promoting homosexuality?
no - in other words they are saying there is nothing wrong with being gay...oops...sorry...those are not other words.......but at least they also do not change the meaning of what was said like you did!
Why is it that now, when nobody could care less about homosexuals and their sexual preferences does this crap suddenly surface whilst being directed at our children?
Perhaps you missed all the protests about gay marriage going on? apparently someone could care less about homosexuals after all!!
And this is not being directed "against" anyone - nice way to contradict yourself about "nobody could care less"!
edit on 22-10-2012 by
Aloysius the Gaul because: (no reason given)
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
Oh sorry, I forgot about the 2% in Australia with possibly another 2% who are fighting for something they don't practice themselves...
Oh sorry, I forgot about the 2% in Australia with possibly another 2% who are fighting for something they don't practice themselves...