BEHIND THE VEIL: Never-Before-Seen Footage of Secret Mormon Temple Rituals

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes


LadyGreenEyes, I have enjoyed some of your other posts I have come across on these forums, so its my displeasure to have to disagree with you.

Mormons do not think Jesus was an Angel. They believe him to be the Son of God, and jurisdiction wise the God and Savior of this world.

While I think that their religious texts are a fraud, I think if they themselves think of themselves as Christians they are. And to say that they can not be Christians makes as much sense as the Pope telling Muslims they are not Muslims. The Mormons don't believe in the authority of the other Catholic/Christian structures, and would be as justified in saying that the other faiths are not Christian, because they don't believe in Jesus the way Mormons believe in him. My authority has more authority then your authority. Nonsense.

But this kind of squabbling is exactly why I don't trust any organized religion. Because they are ran and controlled by flawed, self centered human beings.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Akragon

The more likely story is that Mr. Smith took the story directly from the KJV, and lied about its origins to people that didn't know any better

Anything's possible actually.

Joseph Smith was a "seer" (a medium) before he turned his vision of Christ and all that goes with it into a "new / old" god belief.

You're misunderstanding the contradiction -- the BoM was supposed to be on golden plates that had been buried prior to 500AD, so how did the text of a book from 1600AD show up in it? Time machines?

There is very little of the Book of Mormon that mainly seems to plagiarizes a few sections of Isiah in the Bible and it actually says they are the words of Isaiah so its not like it is some conspiracy. There may be a few others I don't remember. The vast majority of it is pretty unique.

The Bible itself is a mass of self contradiction anyway so I'd say the book of Mormon is no better or worse then it.

And the KJ bible was pretty much the norm of the day so its not like the people joining the Mormons were ignorant of it either as most of them were of other Christian sects of the day.

Originally posted by spleenika
reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

 

LadyGreenEyes, I have enjoyed some of your other posts I have come across on these forums, so its my displeasure to have to disagree with you.

Mormons do not think Jesus was an Angel. They believe him to be the Son of God, and jurisdiction wise the God and Savior of this world.

While I think that their religious texts are a fraud, I think if they themselves think of themselves as Christians they are. And to say that they can not be Christians makes as much sense as the Pope telling Muslims they are not Muslims. The Mormons don't believe in the authority of the other Catholic/Christian structures, and would be as justified in saying that the other faiths are not Christian, because they don't believe in Jesus the way Mormons believe in him. My authority has more authority then your authority. Nonsense.

But this kind of squabbling is exactly why I don't trust any organized religion. Because they are ran and controlled by flawed, self centered human beings.

No worries; I don't always agree with anyone, I don't think...

As for what they believe, according to an ex-Mormon, they consider Jesus a son of God, not part of a Triune God, which is different. They also consider Jesus to be a brother to Satan, who is a fallen angel. I can understand your point on whether or not they can be called Christian, and they can in fact call themselves whatever they want. My point is that I do not consider them the same, because they don't seem to accept the deity of Christ, and that is a requirement for me. I am sure that they would say that I am not the same as them as well. I have no issue with that. And, yes, failing human beings do cause problems. That is a very true statement! For some information on what I was stating, you can check here:

ex-Mormon's statements on the topic

In the end, of course, it's all about each person's personal relationship with Jesus. My intent isn't to squabble, either (though I well know many do), but to try and point out the truth as I understand it, so that others can know who He really is. If I ever come across some other way, that's my failing, and I hope no one holds that against God!

Totally understand your points, though. I will say this, flat out. I do plan to vote for Romney, even though I don't agree with his beliefs regarding religion, because i think he is basically a decent man, and that he does have the knowledge to fix the economy, and, honestly, because just about anyone would be better than the alternative.

reply to post by Sissel

Okay...........then why don't you enlighten us as to the place we should all be going to discover spirituality

True spirituality is found within as even the badly translated bastardized scriptures still teach... Luke 17: 20-21

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes


Forgive my bluntness, I don't really need to read your link about what the ex-mormon had to say. I was raised in the mormon church myself. In the very house I type these words from I live with 3 active faithful temple-recommend holding mormon's, across the street from a mormon church in our Utah town.

So suffice it to say, I understand mormon beliefs very well. I had to severely damage my relationship with my family because of my disagreements with the mormon churchs beliefs. It was not something I did lightly.

That aside they do believe Jesus to be Divine. But they have a very different context then the Roman-Catholic church once you get deeper then that. They believe that Jesus is a part of the "Godhead", that the "Godhead" is made up of three distinct beings who are "one in purpose" but not in being. And this is where they differentiate with other christian faiths, who believe the trinity to be 3 aspects of the same being.

And if we get even deeper then that, things get even weirder. I'm not going to assume you want to go deeper into that rabbit hole, so I will leave it at that. However on the first page of this thread someone posted an animated video about mormon beliefs that can take you pretty deep in about 7 minutes. It's more true then the poster suspected, though there are some inaccuracies at the end.

Nothing but love for you LadyGreenEyes, and thanks for responding.

Totally understand your points, though.

Thanks, and I understand your points and think they are valid too. There is a difference in the way Jesus is viewed by the different organizations. It's true - once you dig a little deeper, those differences are found.

True spirituality is found within as even the badly translated bastardized scriptures still teach... Luke 17: 20-21

That's a fantastic scripture. For those who don't want to look it up:

Luke 17:20-21
King James Version (KJV)
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Originally posted by spleenika
reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

 

Forgive my bluntness, I don't really need to read your link about what the ex-mormon had to say. I was raised in the mormon church myself. In the very house I type these words from I live with 3 active faithful temple-recommend holding mormon's, across the street from a mormon church in our Utah town.

So suffice it to say, I understand mormon beliefs very well. I had to severely damage my relationship with my family because of my disagreements with the mormon churchs beliefs. It was not something I did lightly.

That aside they do believe Jesus to be Divine. But they have a very different context then the Roman-Catholic church once you get deeper then that. They believe that Jesus is a part of the "Godhead", that the "Godhead" is made up of three distinct beings who are "one in purpose" but not in being. And this is where they differentiate with other christian faiths, who believe the trinity to be 3 aspects of the same being.

And if we get even deeper then that, things get even weirder. I'm not going to assume you want to go deeper into that rabbit hole, so I will leave it at that. However on the first page of this thread someone posted an animated video about mormon beliefs that can take you pretty deep in about 7 minutes. It's more true then the poster suspected, though there are some inaccuracies at the end.

Nothing but love for you LadyGreenEyes, and thanks for responding.

Totally understand your points, though.

Thanks, and I understand your points and think they are valid too. There is a difference in the way Jesus is viewed by the different organizations. It's true - once you dig a little deeper, those differences are found.

No need for forgiveness; bluntness is refreshing! It's honest, and I can appreciate honesty. Yes, some real differences. Some between the RCC and what I believe, too. I am, for the record, Southern Baptist in practice. A LOT of variety even there, though, and happy to clarify any points about which you might wonder.

I did watch the video, and it does seem very strange to me. Really, i would be most interested in your insights, as you are surely more knowledgeable on the topic, being raised in that environment. I have an interest in learning what others believe, because then I can more accurately discuss any disagreements or issues with them. Plus, I am dangerously curious by nature.

Always happy to discuss anything I post, and I am far from fallible, so it's even possible someone can find an error. I try to be careful, but I am still human, and far from perfect. Love you back, and most welcome!

reply to post by spleenika

They are digging up dinosaur bones in Northern Utah and across the country, and no one has found any evidence to back up the claims of the book of mormon.

Let me say i agree with your post 99% except for the quote above. There is actually quite a lot of archaeological evidence that supports many of the book of Mormon stories. Doesn't mean they are true history as claimed but it is interesting to say the least.

I come from a Mormon background also and have been through the temple rituals etc. but am now a former Mormon so I have seen first hand what you are saying. Mormons are just as screwed up as everyone else they just hide it better. I was in a Bishopric for a while and you would be surprised what goes on in wards that the majority have no idea about. I sat on church courts and that is when I begin to fully realize this was F'd up ( I knew already but pushed it aside for a time, damn normalcy bias...) and I studied Mormon history like few have and the church today is not the same church that JS started it is a mere shell. Not that that is a bad thing but most Mormons do not have a clue about their history except for a few sanitized snippets they hear over the pulpit.

i do think JS was on to something and had a spiritual connection that few have but got caught up in ego and power etc. I think he realized he screwed up and it was harming people and he was going to renounce polygamy and other things and there is evidence that is why he was killed as too many of the so called brethren were already to heavily invested in the false dogma they learned from him and it went down hill from there. Some historians feel Brigham young was behind it. I am not sure there as there is little evidence in that area. Also the blood atonement rituals were real and Utah is littered with bodies and that is why there is such a bad karma that hangs over many areas there along with the Mountain meadows massacre etc... Some real pieces of work in those days that took things far to literally to the point of killing people and actually thinking they were helping them obtain a better resurrection by doing so... Sigh.

So many Mormons see Utah as Mormon mecca but I get the hebee jebees when ever I travel through there knowing what I know of the history....

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

You are very gracious LadyGreenEyes, that is probably why I am a fan of your posts.

Ahh my insights, I will try to refrain from writing a book here lol. Well as it comes to the video (which I will link to at the bottom of my post for those curious, its actually on page 3 of this thread contrary to what I said earlier) near the end it said that mormons think Joseph Smith, the founder of their religion, has done more for mankind then even Jesus Christ. That's not true, they think of Joseph as a Prophet, and of course respect him greatly as the founder of their church, but he is not above Jesus in any way. The video seems to suggest they worship Joseph Smith in a manner like he is a god, and that's not actually the case. Besides that, the rest of the video represents mormon beliefs very well. And they are pretty weird, even to me as someone raised mormon in Utah.

In fact most of those beliefs as shown in the animation are not openly discussed. In a similar manner to Scientology, where you have to reach a certain rank in their organization to learn about their deepest secrets, the same goes for mormonism. Certain beliefs are only revealed as a person progresses in the church. The rituals in the temples are not known to a mormon before they go to a temple to do them. They have to be interviewed and be given a "recommend" (think of that as a card saying "This person is clean") before they can enter the temple. So if the person is found to be weak in the faith, they will not give them a recommend to go to the temple and learn these deeper truths.

In my opinion, be wary of any organization that keeps secrets. Especially really weird secrets.

reply to post by hawkiye


That is fascinating hawkiye, I had never heard the angle that JS's murder may have been over a possible change in the polygamy practice. I can see that as making sense.

I am more familiar with the hypothesis with Brigham Young being behind the murder of Josephs Smiths brother Samuel, who would have become the church's new leader if he had not died mysteriously a month after Joseph. And to me I do see it as plausible Brigham may have been behind both of their deaths.

We may never know the truth of those incidents now they are so far in the past, but the possibility you put forward is brand new for me, and very interesting.

Also on the archeological evidence thing, I would be curious what you have found. There is a very large Wikipedia article devoted to the topic, which I will provide a snippet and link to here. I am curious what your response is to them. I have heard the apologists official rebuttals, but did not find them very convincing.

During the early 1980s, reports circulated in LDS culture that the Book of Mormon was being used by the Smithsonian to guide primary archaeological research. This rumor was brought to the attention of Smithsonian directors who, in 1996, sent a form letter to inquiring parties stating that the Smithsonian did not use the Book of Mormon to guide any research, and included a list of specific reasons Smithsonian archaeologists considered the Book of Mormon historically unlikely.

Link to Wiki Article

Originally posted by dplum517
reply to post by Annee

 

That's correct. The most I did was baptisms for the dead.

So you don't really know what its about either. Right?

You see, none of these rituals are based on fact. You are trying to defend the rituals they preform in secret, in their temples (implying that somehow the rest of humanity is damned through ignorance). Why?

I just don't see how the knocks & handshakes ritual is necessary whatsoever in any aspect of Christianity.

And the fact that you have things done in the temple, in private or a small group and these rituals are not available for all, is annoying to me. And it's not because I want to join the club, it's just that none of that should be necessary to find or be closer to god or whatever it is that you're seeking. The chanting, fine, the baptisms for others, great. The other stuff, I get an instant "nope" in my mind.

Luckily, I don't need to take the word of the main person trying to defend here, I know people that have done the temple rituals, and go to temple on strict schedule..soooo I'll just ask them. I really could care less but it'll make for an interesting conversation.

Originally posted by FeelingPure
reply to post by TheMaverick

 

It seems Scientology is the most logical religion in our days, i guess, i don't know what do you think op?

FeelingPure, are you kidding? Scientology is a MUCH worse cult than Mormonism. Just abusive to its followers.

There's a movie out entitled "The Master" that's supposed to be excellent (has an excellent cast) based on the life of L.Ron Hubbard (fictionalized, of course) who founded Scientology.

reply to post by spleenika


Just want to say thank you for your very honest opinion and input to this thread, very insightful.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________


So far, after reviewing all posts in this thread, most people walk away from the mormon church feeling cheated, and although i totally agree most religions have weird rituals none are quite as secretive as mormons. Its the fact the leader of the world super power could well be a mormon very soon, is what quite worrying, and added to the fact i've now been enlighten with more facts and tales from ex mormons in this thread who clearly state the real mormon church is basically at odds with americans and christians as a whole and clearly have a hidden agenda.

Would it be good for America to have a mormon bishop as commander and chief considering the facts we learn here.

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask

wait wait........I thought the religion of the person who would be president didnt matter?

Wasnt that what everyone said about Obama , when people accused him of being a closet Muslim?

Funny how now the left goes on the attack with Mitts religion.......

The double standard and vitriol is sickening

But that's totally different, man. Obama is kewl cuz he's Black. Muslims are kewl cuz they hate Amerika.

But Christians, especially Christian Fundies, are UNkewl cuz they believe in unkewl things like the Ten Commandments. And they're against Gay marriage and legalizing pot. Like I thought you'd grok that, dude.

After reading entire thread. Mormon religion is no different than any of the rest. It's poppy cock fantasy. I'm signing up charter members for my new church. The Sacred Volvo Hubcap Ministry .....bring your own owners manual........Volvo gift shop is located south of the frontage road..Bait shop too!!!!! Yes, it's sarcasm. Really deep sarcasm. All of it is comical. Just silly to use ones mind for such fantasy laden stuff.... The worlds two biggest religions Christianity & Islam, neither beleive the others is real and true, and their willing to kill each other over it and kill all of us too. When we as a species dispell the myth of religion, then we can get on with becoming better human beings toward one another.....Does any body have a vintage 62 Volvo Hubcap? I would like to use it as my center piece and say God talks to me thru it.

Originally posted by hawkiye
reply to post by spleenika

 

They are digging up dinosaur bones in Northern Utah and across the country, and no one has found any evidence to back up the claims of the book of mormon.

Let me say i agree with your post 99% except for the quote above. There is actually quite a lot of archaeological evidence that supports many of the book of Mormon stories.

Such as? When I was researching Mormonism, about ten years ago, the non-LDS consensus was that there was zero archaeological evidence and the LDS archaeologists themselves weren't claiming much more.

i do think JS was on to something and had a spiritual connection that few have but got caught up in ego and power etc. I think he realized he screwed up and it was harming people and he was going to renounce polygamy and other things and there is evidence that is why he was killed as too many of the so called brethren were already to heavily invested in the false dogma they learned from him and it went down hill from there.

To be honest, that's a bit too apologetic. Smith made some very questionable decisions in those last years, most of it seemingly "shooting from the hip", so to say that he suddenly woke up one day and decided to renounce it all seems unlikely.

However, I agree that Young and the remainder of the Mormon leadership that brought them out to Deseret was far worse.

Originally posted by TheMaverick
reply to post by spleenika

 

Just want to say thank you for your very honest opinion and input to this thread, very insightful.
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So far, after reviewing all posts in this thread, most people walk away from the mormon church feeling cheated, and although i totally agree most religions have weird rituals none are quite as secretive as mormons.

You are choosing what to believe.

The Mormon church is not secretive - - and not at odds with traditional Christianity - - except for people who make it that way.

Seems to me all the "ex-Mormons" - - at least on this thread - - left when they were young - - weren't really into the religions thing - - would probably have left any religion - - and may return once they have their own family.

I have not stated it until now - - but I have been through the endowment. Its no big deal. I'd say its more along the lines of Special then Secretive.

Its just a level of attainment for devout Mormons if they want it. Not all Mormons do. Not all Mormons go to temple. It is a choice. No one is forced to go to temple or even fill all the requirements needed. It is a choice.

People are just so weird if something is kept special for a certain group. What is your right to know this special ceremony?

Originally posted by spleenika

In my opinion Mormonism is a cult. It is obviously fake.

I wasn't Mormon in Utah. Utah is kind of a special case. It probably is more cult like there - - - kind of like how Christianity is so deeply ingrained in the South.

I was Mormon in Los Angeles. When we'd get a member who moved from Utah - - we'd say "settle down dude". They were so intense.

So not all Mormons are like those in Utah. Just like not all Christians are the same.

I thoroughly enjoyed my time as a Mormon and did not experience any of the behaviors you claim.

Originally posted by Annee
I was Mormon in Los Angeles. When we'd get a member who moved from Utah - - we'd say "settle down dude". They were so intense.
So not all Mormons are like those in Utah. Just like not all Christians are the same.

/hug Annee

Annee, I am always impressed by your defense of the LDS church as a non-believer. I really respect you for having the intestinal fortitude to respect a religion that you yourself do not believe; it's a level of intelligent and rational thought that escapes far too many people these days!

(And as for your comment above, I moved to Idaho from NorCal and I saw the mirror image of what you did, this culture is whack!)

I've been lurking in this thread for awhile, not quite ready to jump in till some of the dust settled from the rants and ragings. But I suppose now's as good a time as any.

I'm LDS. Raised LDS from a very young age, I have been active in church, I have been inactive, I have been faithful and diligent, and I have rolled around in all the sin I could stomach. I'm not a cookie-cutter LDS defender...I have wrestled in my own mind and heart with many of the issues and topics that are being thrown around these days. I am a Geologist, and am able to find balance between science and religion with very little compromise.

If someone would like to 'point the gun' so to speak at me, I would be glad to try and answer questions to the best of my ability. If I don't know an answer I will say so. What I am not known for is giving a stock out-of-the box reply to typical questions. If you're an atheist who wants the answer to life, the universe and everything...all I got for you is 42. Skip down 2 paragraphs to see why.

In response to the OP of this thread: The temple ceremonies are held sacred by members of the LDS church. Not secret, sacred. The difference is that a faithful LDS person wants to share everything they know, but (as judged by many responses to all this) to drop temple knowledge on someone who knows nothing else is akin to teaching Particle Physics in a 6th grade math class. This is why we are instructed to not share the details of temple services. And no, it's not an indoctrination/brainwashing thing.

One of the fundamental tenets of any religion is having a personal testimony ("realization," "witness," etc.) of various principles of faith. This personal testimony is the very cornerstone of believer/nonbeliever debate. A believer holds that this life is a spiritual test of faith, and the witness one receives is something that cannot, nor will ever be, quantifiable, provable or testable. The intimate and unique nature of each person's witness affirms the broader belief of this individual spiritual test. If one has never had a personal witness affect them spiritually they cannot understand what it means in the heart of those who have. Arguments ad nauseum have thus ensued since humans began scratching stories into rock.

But back to my OP point. In any religion, a person must be taught the fundamental tenets and have this personal witness of their truthfulness before deeper understanding can take root. I have personally experienced (and heard countless little old ladies talk of) reading a scripture and getting one message out of it. When that scripture is revisited maybe years later after kids, or tragedy, or simply life experience, the meaning and message of the particular verse is totally different and often deeper.
Same for the temple. Without the testimony of basic tenets, the temple ceremony seems disjointed and out of sync with the style of teaching found in weekly meetings. But even though the temple ceremony is completely structured word for word, members often talk of the messages they take from it changing based upon their personal circumstance.

As Annee often says, most of what you find on the internet about the LDS church is wrong. Even if something is factually true, taking a small part out of context and without the foundations of the faith is like hearing the last line of a really long joke.

"...and then the Mormon missionary said, "But the cow sure liked it!"
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ See? If that were a punchline to a joke, it might be really, really funny. But you'd never know because there's no context.

Like Maverick dude......... you are in so much trouble....

These Mormons are gonn'a get you now, wouldn't wann'a be you...