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Yet another paper demonstrates warmer temperatures 1000 years ago and even 2000 years ago

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posted on Oct, 22 2012 @ 08:58 AM
reply to post by ElectricUniverse

I'd ask you to back it up, but we all know your tactic of throwing out a ton of links, highlighting text out of context, and basically putting out questionable sources while drawing illogical conclusions.

..but, oh wait, there's more!! then you claim that this "evidence" is proof that we're dumb, don't know how to read, are religious kooks, etc...all because you lack the ability to properly discern credible sources, or what the data actually represents.

posted on Oct, 22 2012 @ 09:04 AM

Originally posted by moniesisfun

You present a strawman. AGW is about science. The fact that anthropogenic CO2 is the main cause of AGW has nothing to do with your statement that it's a pollutant whatsoever. It indirectly causes AGW. Please read some science.

I present a strawman?.. really?... Please go grow a brain, the one you have is obviously not working, before you try to discuss a topic you obviously lack the intelligence to discuss...

Your evidence and your idols have been shown to be liars... Give it up, they even had to admit that they publish false information to FORCE governments and people to accept the AGW religion/agenda...

AGW is not science, it is pseudo-science, the religion of the 21st century global idiots...

Originally posted by moniesisfun
Again, strawman.

You don't even know what a strawman is...

Originally posted by moniesisfun
No, it's a clear indication that you have poor logical capacities. If the plants could adequately absorb the current rates of CO2 being pumped out by industry, there wouldn't be a rise in atmospheric CO2, or a drop in PH in the oceans. How you imagine that 1.200-1,500ppm is ideal due to plants absorbing more.... is beyond me, and a clear sign of idiocy.

LOL... The Earth has had higher levels of atmospheric CO2 and the Earth was GREENER and was full of animals on land and at sea...

Even during the Medieval Warm Period the oceans were warmer than now and waters were LESS SALINE than now, meaning the Arctic and/or Antarctic had melted more than they have at present, yet during that time there were no "massive die-offs" and neither there were "massive die-offs" during millions of years when CO2 levels were 7 to 12 times higher than now...

The "massive die-offs" occurred when large meteors crashed on Earth, there were massive volcanic eruptions in most of the Earth or some heavenly large event occurred which caused such extinctions...

Originally posted by moniesisfun
Actually, you're the one who usually plays that card. Your "evidence" has been debunked, over and over again, yet you continue on...

Hilarious, lacking of intelligence, and dellusional as well... The evidence that has been debunked is what comes from your idols Mann, Jones, Trenberth, Hansen et al...

Keep up on the reading if you want to try to discuss this topic please...

edit on 22-10-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)

posted on Oct, 22 2012 @ 09:06 AM

Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by ElectricUniverse

Oh, I forgot to add the part where you are predictable too.

And you actually think your response debunks the facts...

Admit it, AGW is a religion you "BELIEVE" in...

posted on Oct, 22 2012 @ 09:08 AM
reply to post by moniesisfun

I give questionable sources?... Really? sources from universities, and scientific journals are questionable?...

Again, you are full of nothing but hot air and rhetoric BS...

posted on Oct, 22 2012 @ 09:10 AM
reply to post by ElectricUniverse

Yes, you do.

Yes, I do.

This is my last response. It's not worth wasting time on you.

I trust the good people viewing this thread will be able to discern your deceptive tactics, and take note of these for future reference when viewing your posts.

A straw man, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally,[1][2] is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[3] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[3][4]

posted on Oct, 22 2012 @ 09:19 AM
reply to post by predator0187

BTW, didn't you see the latest research on this topic and what it states about the climate for the past 2,000 years?...

What the research demonstrates is that the Medieval and Roman Warm PEriods were even WARMER than previously thought of, and past research states they were WARMER than present

Even with the ongoing Climate Change the trend in the climate has been of COOLING.

Climate in northern Europe reconstructed for the past 2,000 years: Cooling trend calculated precisely for the first time

Calculations prepared by Mainz scientists will also influence the way current climate change is perceived / Publication of results in Nature Climate Change


An international team including scientists from Johannes Gutenberg University Mainz (JGU) has published a reconstruction of the climate in northern Europe over the last 2,000 years based on the information provided by tree-rings. Professor Dr. Jan Esper's group at the Institute of Geography at JGU used tree-ring density measurements from sub-fossil pine trees originating from Finnish Lapland to produce a reconstruction reaching back to 138 BC. In so doing, the researchers have been able for the first time to precisely demonstrate that the long-term trend over the past two millennia has been towards climatic cooling. "We found that previous estimates of historical temperatures during the Roman era and the Middle Ages were too low," says Esper. "Such findings are also significant with regard to climate policy, as they will influence the way today's climate changes are seen in context of historical warm periods." The new study has been published in the journal Nature Climate Change.

Researchers from Germany, Finland, Scotland, and Switzerland examined tree-ring density profiles in trees from Finnish Lapland. In this cold environment, trees often collapse into one of the numerous lakes, where they remain well preserved for thousands of years.

The international research team used these density measurements from sub-fossil pine trees in northern Scandinavia to create a sequence reaching back to 138 BC. The density measurements correlate closely with the summer temperatures in this area on the edge of the Nordic taiga. The researchers were thus able to create a temperature reconstruction of unprecedented quality. The reconstruction provides a high-resolution representation of temperature patterns in the Roman and Medieval Warm periods, but also shows the cold phases that occurred during the Migration Period and the later Little Ice Age.

In addition to the cold and warm phases, the new climate curve also exhibits a phenomenon that was not expected in this form. For the first time, researchers have now been able to use the data derived from tree-rings to precisely calculate a much longer-term cooling trend that has been playing out over the past 2,000 years. Their findings demonstrate that this trend involves a cooling of -0.3°C per millennium due to gradual changes to the position of the sun and an increase in the distance between the Earth and the sun.

"This figure we calculated may not seem particularly significant," says Esper. "However, it is also not negligible when compared to global warming, which up to now has been less than 1°C. Our results suggest that the large-scale climate reconstruction shown by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) likely underestimate this long-term cooling trend over the past few millennia."

You can see the graph with the temp in this link.

BTW, yeah that research is of northern Europe, what the researchers studied, but other research demonstrates these events were GLOBAL in nature, and not regional like the AGW religious fanatics keep claiming even when the evidence contradicts their "BELIEF"...

edit on 22-10-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)

posted on Oct, 22 2012 @ 09:20 AM
reply to post by predator0187

Great thread! Just posting so I can come back to it later.

I was looking for long-range cimate graphs. Thanks for sharing!

posted on Oct, 22 2012 @ 09:26 AM
reply to post by swan001

There is a lot more where that came from, and the AGW religious fanatics really have no way to refute these facts...

CWP = Current Warm Period, MWP = Medieval Warm Period, and RWP = Roman Warm Period.

The above graphic is from an analisys of sediment from the Wrangell-St. Elias National Park and Preserve of south-central Alaska (USA)

BTW CWP stands for "Current Warm Period" and you can see that both the Medieval, and Roman Warm Periods were warmer than the most current warm period.

The following is a graph from the Sargasso Sea Temperature reconstruction.

Although this article explains that evidence of the RWP in Asi is being disputed, it does say that and I quote:

Moreover, the impact of the RWP to the East Asian ancient history is not clear also because there were no notable political factions in all East Asia except in some parts of China.

This bears great relevance because the RWP weather events weren't reported as much as other Climate Change events.

However if you take a look at this graph, which show the Climate Changes in East Asia for the past 1,800 years you can see that at least part of the Medieval Warm Period was warmer even than the present, and they even mention it.

II.2.3 The Medieval Warm Period
After the DACP was another warm period that continued until c. 1350 A.D., and it was wet and warm again like the RWP. Although some scientists argue that actually there was no significant warm climate during the MWP in East Asia, it seems evident that at least the 12th century was warmer than any other periods - even warmer than today-discussed on this paper. (8)

On-line Publication Documentation System for Stockholm University
Full DescriptionUpdate record

Publication type: Article in journal (Reviewed scientific)
Author: Grudd, H (Department of Physical Geography and Quaternary Geology)
Title: Torneträsk tree-ring width and density ad 500–2004: a test of climatic sensitivity and a new 1500-year reconstruction of north Fennoscandian summers
In: Climate Dynamics
Publisher: Springer, Berlin / Heidelberg
Volume: 31
Pages: 843-857
Year: 2008
Available: 2009-01-30
ISSN: 1432-0894
Department: Department of Physical Geography and Quaternary Geology
Language: English [en]
Subject: Physical geography, Climatology
Abstract: This paper presents updated tree-ring width (TRW) and maximum density (MXD) from Torneträsk in northern Sweden, now covering the period ad 500–2004. By including data from relatively young trees for the most recent period, a previously noted decline in recent MXD is eliminated. Non-climatological growth trends in the data are removed using Regional Curve Standardization (RCS), thus producing TRW and MXD chronologies with preserved low-frequency variability. The chronologies are calibrated using local and regional instrumental climate records. A bootstrapped response function analysis using regional climate data shows that tree growth is forced by April–August temperatures and that the regression weights for MXD are much stronger than for TRW. The robustness of the reconstruction equation is verified by independent temperature data and shows that 63–64% of the instrumental inter-annual variation is captured by the tree-ring data. This is a significant improvement compared to previously published reconstructions based on tree-ring data from Torneträsk. A divergence phenomenon around ad 1800, expressed as an increase in TRW that is not paralleled by temperature and MXD, is most likely an effect of major changes in the density of the pine population at this northern tree-line site. The bias introduced by this TRW phenomenon is assessed by producing a summer temperature reconstruction based on MXD exclusively. The new data show generally higher temperature estimates than previous reconstructions based on Torneträsk tree-ring data. The late-twentieth century, however, is not exceptionally warm in the new record: On decadal-to-centennial timescales, periods around ad 750, 1000, 1400, and 1750 were equally warm, or warmer. The 200-year long warm period centered on ad 1000 was significantly warmer than the late-twentieth century (p < 0.05) and is supported by other local and regional paleoclimate data. The new tree-ring evidence from Torneträsk suggests that this “Medieval Warm Period” in northern Fennoscandia was much warmer than previously recognized.

P. D. Tyson, W. Karlén, K. Holmgren and G. A. Heiss (in press) The Little Ice Age and Medieval Warming in South Africa. South African Journal of Science.


The Little Ice Age and Medieval Warming in South Africa

P. D. Tyson1, W. Karlén2, K. Holmgren2 and G. A. Heiss3.

1Climatology Research Group, University of the Witwatersrand
2Department of Physical Geography, Stockholm University
3Geomar, Wischhofstr. 1-3, 24148 Kiel, Germany; present address: German Advisory Council on Global Change (WBGU), P.O. Box 120161, 27515 Bremerhaven, Germany, E-mail:


The Little Ice Age, from around 1300 to 1800, and medieval warming, from before 1000 to around 1300 in South Africa, are shown to be distinctive features of the regional climate of the last millennium. The proxy climate record has been constituted from oxygen and carbon isotope and colour density data obtained from a well-dated stalagmite derived from Cold Air Cave in the Makapansgat Valley.
The climate of the interior of South Africa was around 1oC cooler in the Little Ice Age and may have been over 3°C higher than at present during the extremes of the medieval warm period. It was variable throughout the millennium, but considerably more so during the warming of the eleventh to thirteenth centuries. Extreme events in the record show distinct teleconnections with similar events in other parts of the world, in both the northern and southern hemispheres. The lowest temperature events recorded during the Little Ice Age in South Africa are shown to be coeval with the Maunder and Sporer Minima in solar irradiance. The medieval warming is shown to have been coincided with the cosmogenic 10Be and 14C isotopic maxima recorded in tree rings elsewhere in the world during the Medieval Maximum in solar radiation.

The above link doesn't work anymore, but you can find that research here.

And if you want to read the entire research here is a copy of it.

Evidence for the existence of the medieval warm period in China
Journal Climatic Change
Publisher Springer Netherlands
ISSN 0165-0009 (Print) 1573-1480 (Online)
Issue Volume 26, Numbers 2-3 / March, 1994
DOI 10.1007/BF01092419
Pages 289-297
Subject Collection Earth and Environmental Science
SpringerLink Date Monday, February 07, 2005
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Evidence for the existence of the medieval warm period in China
De'Er Zhang1

(1) Chinese Academy of Meteorological Sciences, Baishiqiaolu No. 46, 100081 Beijing, China

Abstract The collected documentary records of the cultivation of citrus trees andBoehmeria nivea (a perennial herb) have been used to produce distribution maps of these plants for the eighth, twelfth and thirteenth centuries A.D. The northern boundary of citrus andBoehmeria nivea cultivation in the thirteenth century lay to the north of the modern distribution. During the last 1000 years, the thirteenth-century boundary was the northernmost. This indicates that this was the warmest time in that period. On the basis of knowledge of the climatic conditions required for planting these species, it can be estimated that the annual mean temperature in south Henan Province in the thirteenth century was 0.9–1.0°C higher than at present. A new set of data for the latest snowfall date in Hangzhou from A.D. 1131 to 1264 indicates that this cannot be considered a cold period, as previously believed.

Decline Of Roman And Byzantine Empires 1,400 Years Ago May Have Been Driven By Climate Change

ScienceDaily (Dec. 6, 2008) — The decline of the Roman and Byzantine Empires in the Eastern Mediterranean more than 1,400 years ago may have been driven by unfavorable climate changes.

Based on chemical signatures in a piece of calcite from a cave near Jerusalem, a team of American and Israeli geologists pieced together a detailed record of the area's climate from roughly 200 B.C. to 1100 A.D. Their analysis, to be reported in an upcoming issue of the journal Quaternary Research, reveals increasingly dry weather from 100 A.D. to 700 A.D. that coincided with the fall of both Roman and Byzantine rule in the region.

In fact, as I have pointed out before with other research, the Earth has been warmer than during the 20th, or the beginning of the 21st century, yet CO2 levels in the atmosphere were much lower than now.

Such dramatic Climate Changes occurred globally, not just in one area, or just in the northern hemisphere.

Late Holocene Environmental and Hydrologic Conditions in Northwestern Florida Derived from Seasonally Resolved Profiles of δ18O and Sr/Ca of Fossil Bivalves.
Elliot, M.; de Menocal, P. B.; Linsley, B. K.; Howe, S. S.; Guilderson, T.; Quitmyer, I. R.
AA(Edinburgh University, Dept. Geology and Geophysics, West Mains Road, Edinburgh, EH9 3JW United Kingdom ;, AB(Lamont Doherty Earth Observatory, Route 9W, Palisades, NY 10964 ;, AC(University at Albany, 1400 Washington Ave, Albany, NY 12222 ;, AD(Laurence Livermore National Laboratory, 7000 East Ave, Livermore, CA 94550 ;, AE(Laurence Livermore National Laboratory, 7000 East Ave, Livermore, CA 94550 ; ), AF(Florida Museum of Natural History, Dickinson Hall, Gainesville, FL 32611 ; )
American Geophysical Union, Fall Meeting 2002, abstract #PP72A-0429
Publication Date:
AGU Keywords:
3344 Paleoclimatology, 4215 Climate and interannual variability (3309), 4227 Diurnal, seasonal, and annual cycles, 4870 Stable isotopes, 4875 Trace elements
Bibliographic Code:

We reconstruct environmental conditions of coastal Northwestern Florida from combined measurements of δ18O and Sr/Ca of fossil marine bivalves deposited in an archeological site during the late Holocene period. We first investigated the environmental controls of seasonally resolved records of δ18O and Sr/Ca of modern Mercenaria mercenaria and Mercenaria campesiensis collected live from five coastal sites along the east coast of North America. Seasonal profiles were obtained by sub-sampling the incremental growth layers of aragonite and were compared with in situ historical records of temperature and salinity. We show that these bivalves precipitate their shell in isotopic equilibrium with the water in which they grew and that the δ18O records are not affected by variations in growth rate. Winter growth appears to be interrupted or strongly reduced below water temperatures ranging from 7 to 18° C, depending on latitude. The annual average δ18O decreases with latitude, reflecting both the parallel trend of freshwater δ18O with latitude over the North American continent and the reduced winter growth rate. The Sr/Ca records of the 5 modern bivalves also exhibit seasonal variations can be correlated to water temperature. However, contrary to corals, the Sr/Ca ratio is considerably lower than the average sea water Sr/Ca composition and is positively correlated to the water temperature. We dated and measured the δ18O and Sr/Ca of 30 fossil M. campesiensis from an archeological site close to Cedar Key, in the Gulf of Mexico. Accelerator Mass Spectrometry 14C dates obtained for each shell show ages which cluster between 1100 to 1400 and 2300 to 2600 14C years BP corresponding approximately to two historical warm periods known as the Medieval Warm Period (~ 1300-900AD) and the Roman Warm Period (~ 250AD-200BC). The average annual and summer Sr/Ca of 4 fossil shells are higher than that of modern bivalves from the same location suggesting that annual coastal water temperatures were 3 to 4° C warmer than today. The bulk δ18O values show a marked trend towards more positive values. 24 fossil shells have bulk δ18O values 0.2permil to 0.7permil more positive than modern bivalves from the same location. These results suggest that the coastal waters off northwest Florida were warmer and less saline compared to today and attest of considerable differences of the regional climate and hydrological balance during the Medieval Warm Period and Roman Warm Period.

As to what could have been the reason for Climate Changes such as "Global Warming":

Science News

Antarctic Science (2003), 15:2:173-173 Cambridge University Press
Copyright © Antarctic Science Ltd 2003


Galactic energy and its role in a changing Earth


Proposed climate change mechanisms are many and various but generally attributable to our part of the solar system. They usually focus on temperature changes driven either by local processes such as variations in oceanic circulation, or, levels of atmospheric greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide, or by global processes such as variations in received solar energy linked to changes in the parameters of the Earth's rotation and orbit or solar activity. However, two recent papers have suggested that we may need to look outside the Earth System and even outside our local planetary system for the possible origins of climate change, both on a decadal scale and over longer timescales of hundreds of millions of years. In each case, the galactic cosmic ray flux and its potential effects on cloud formation is considered to be the culprit.


The above are just some of hundreds of peer-review research papers, from thousands of scientists who have linked Solar System and Galactic events, among other NATURAL events as the causes of the Climate Changes we have been experiencing.

Even thou evidence CLEARLY shows that the Medieval and Roman Warm Periods occurred globally the AGW religious lunatics keep claiming "they were just regional events"...

Even the current, ongoing Climate Change hasn't been uniform, it started in the early 1600s according to borehole temperatures, but in the surface some areas warmed faster than others... Should we use these facts as claims that "the ongoing Global Warming/Climate Change hasn't been global"?...

edit on 22-10-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: for errors and to add link

posted on Oct, 22 2012 @ 09:30 AM
reply to post by ElectricUniverse

That was very informative, thank you!!

posted on Oct, 22 2012 @ 09:35 AM
reply to post by swan001

You are very welcomed.

The ongoing Climate Change hasn't been uniform, it hasn't been the "warmest" or fastest" as the AGW religious camp claim, in fact there have been faster, and warmer past Climate Changes when atmospheric CO2 was a lot lower than at present.

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