No Mr. Romney, Rich People Do Not Create Jobs

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by MystikMushroom

 

...People who rely on themselves....

what good is self reliance if the money itself is rendered worthless?

People still believe in trickle down economics.... Now that is some funny sh*t.

But no even in the Regan years the reasons for the expanding economy had very little to do with that. Its economies that make jobs and rich people, not rich people that make economies and jobs.

Originally posted by ABNARTY
reply to post by beezzer

 

No one has ever built a fortune all on their own. Total delusion. Only if a person was spawned on a barren planet and single handedly crafted a civilization out of dirt could they claim this. Never happened. What we have was built on the backs of millions of humans long dead. We all live in an interdependent web of those around us. Matter of fact, economic models depends on it. The whole concept of wealth as we understand it, requires it.

If you happen to be lucky enough to be born at the right time and right place - with your particular talents deemed valuable to everyone- AND some hard work and luck, then you stand a chance of being wealthy. Hard work and smarts are part of equation but they cannot stand on their own.

edit on 17-10-2012 by ABNARTY because: sp/gr

That`s truth. Knowing many rich people I can assure you that none of them became rich without luck

Being in the right place at the right time, or having very good contacts is essential.

What is more important to people? To be American and believe in the Bill of Rights and the US as a place of opportunity for work? or for the promise of capitalist gain? My thinking is we are not honest with ourselves. If it's all about money then screw patriotism, being American, and being Christian, and just honestly say, it's all about the money, a billion dollar house bought with Chinese labor and production that Americans will never be able to complete against until we working class work 15 hour days for 10 dollars. Embrace it (and if Romney creates tariffs on Chinese goods like he stated yesterday, that will happen, and only the wealthy will be able to afford a TV set.) If we are supposed to be a Christian nation.... well... I ME ME MINE.. enough said. I apologize for the rant, but I used to work 3 jobs and walk though two miles of snow in Flagstaff Arizona to work in an IHOP kitchen from 10pm till 7am... And two more part time jobs after that. I've seen working class people bust their ass like some wealthy wouldn't believe. You want what's yours? Fine ... But don't respect people who work in backbreaking labor day to day getting grease burns, overworked, underpaid and call them lazy and entitled. A business man who is smart deserves some more bread sure, but not 10,000 times more! Especially if they are not breaking their backs day by day. I have friends that are rich and friends that are poor. My rich friends have no problem stating, it takes money to make money. Your daddy is rich and you have 10,000 to invest, great.. bust some cat born in a trailer who goes to a bottom of the barrel school in Mississippi, they can work their butt off and not have enough money to invest to get riches.

what creates jobs.

people buying stuff.

how do people buy stuff.

with money.

how do people get money. by working.

why aren't people buying stuff. because they don't have money.

they don't have money because they don't have a job or decent paying one and to many bills.

what was americas answer to this conundrum. credit cards for anyone who can manage to work a pen.

millions of people with this influx of credit, started going on buying sprees. crap was flying off the shelves.

the retailers couldn't keep up. hired more staff.

manufacturers couldn't keep up with retailers demands. they hired more workers.

competition between them meant surpluses of work and jobs, and good pay to attract the desperate help needed. if you wanted to make a buck.

now the credit well is dry. people don't want even to look at their credit cards, much less buy something they don't need.

all this credit was backed by real money in the banks. they were pumping money into the economy thru your credit card, mutually benefiting all.

now they are hoarding all the money. there is no money to pay for workers, hence no jobs.

its all in the cayman islands, tied up in complicated stock schemes and sitting by the trillions in computer databases around the globe, being used and benefited by an elite few.

Originally posted by AudioOne My rich friends have no problem stating, it takes money to make money. Your daddy is rich and you have 10,000 to invest, great.. bust some cat born in a trailer who goes to a bottom of the barrel school in Mississippi, they can work their butt off and not have enough money to invest to get riches.

I think that`s the biggest issue. In the past it were much easier too start a successful business from zero.

reply to post by beezzer

If the wealthy don't create jobs, I'm guessing that the answer would be government, yes?

Did you forget about small business owners? They are usually not wealthy yet employ many.

The government also does create some jobs, like working at the post office. This is designated in the constitution, along with judges, legislators, on and on.

Also, without customers or the workers... the rich or small business owners would be nothing. The owners ablity to hire new people is solely based on the consumer. Everyone is just as important in capitalism, you cannot have one without the other. The relationship is interdependent.

Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by MystikMushroom
reply to post by beezzer

 

The rich have been stealing from their own consumer base for years.

So that justifies stealing from them?

Absolutely! Are you mentally all there? It is not stealing from them it is getting back what was stolen. It is hitting the reset button. You say "work hard and you can get there too"? BS. Bring everything back to equal and see who "earns" their riches. You say people "earned" the money they made? When they inherit trust funds they earned nothing. When they are a giant corporation that has been around for a century the current CEOs did not get the company to that position. If you want to talk about banks, they are just crooks plain and simple. Fractional reserve banking, Federal Reserve, Income tax, etc. tax loopholes for corporations and wealthy. I am not defending the people taking advantage of the system I am defending people who bust their butt and work over 50 hours a week and are still living paycheck to paycheck doing the SAME jobs previous generations were doing but were making enough money to have a single income in the family and still be able to afford vacations, houses, cars, etc. What do you have to say to that?

Originally posted by beezzer
Why do people feel entitled to anything they didn't earn?

Many "wealthy" people started out working long hours with great risk to their financial security for years.

If the wealthy don't create jobs, I'm guessing that the answer would be government, yes?

If that's the case, then embrace big government. I, for one, will be working to make government accountable AND SMALLER.

Personal responsibility. Embrace it.

I know!!! Mitt Romney just stands there doing nothing and gets taxed less than someone who is busting rock and building something. He didn't earn that!! Breathing in and breathing out, he feels entitled to breaks the rest of us don't get. The guy busting rocks is the one actually contributing to the country and yet he pays larger percent of earnings than the measly 14% Mitt Romney gets away with. I am sick of these parasites sucking off the sweat and blood of the workers. And you can tell Romney feels entitled to the extra money he gets back. I actually heard him in an interview saying that him, with his big fat tax break, getting money back he isn't really entitled to (because he just scams the system, makes a fool out of the worker, and takes advantage of loopholes without actually contributing anything) is the way capitalism works best! Right? For HIM! Great point!

reply to post by newcovenant


Mitt Romney didn`t get there without working.

Busting rocks are not the only hard work. Using your mind is a hard work too.

reply to post by newcovenant


some would argue that the guy busting rocks should " work smarter, not harder"

Meaning that hard work is something almost anyone with a healthy body can do.......but it takes more than hard work to get rich.....it also takes being smart enough to work the system to your favor.

If all it took was hard work, we'd live in a nation of millionaires on every corner!

Sadly, the guy who works the hardest, often dies the poorest, but the guy who works the smartest gets ahead.

It's not fair, it sux, but it seems to be how this world works.

reply to post by Mijamija


Exactly.

I think the only place in the world where this differences are smaller are in Scandinavia. There you won`t see (mostly) super rich people, but you won`t see poor people too.

reply to post by hououinkyouma


My brother once told me "knowledge is power" and I never forgot that.

Being smart, innovative, motivated, developing great social skills and hard work plus luck all contribute to success.

But in order to be successful, you have to "have the knowledge" that it takes all those things to get ahead.

The guy who believes that if he just works harder it will pay off for him, is ignorant that it takes more than hard work to get ahead.

The guy who has the knowledge of how to play the game, the desire to get ahead, is a creative thinker, perfects ALL his skill sets, has a much better chance in moving up.

The hard working guy might be the best, most honest, loving, dedicated guy on earth, but without the knowledge of what being successful entails....he is at a grave disadvantage.

People!

I wanted to start a topic about a specific economic issue; "trickle down" or "supply-side" aka "Reganomics"

Because that theory says that "Rich people create jobs".

Does this method work?

Let's take a look at "some numbers".

I am endlessly amazed by middle class republican's admiration of Reagan. People are always talking about how he turned the economy around, etc. Truth be told, he borrowed the country into a false sense of prosperity, in doing so he ultimately started what has become a death spiral. He was the first to really pull demand forward and the country has been paying the debt ever since.

Reagan took office January, 1981, the debt had been in steady decline since the end of WWII but then it began to escalate.

www.publicdebt.treas.gov...

During the same time period, the percentage of wealth held by the top 1% has risen proportionately.

en.wikipedia.org...:Chart_of_US_Top_1%25_Income_Share_(1913-2008).svg&page=1

The same is true of the top 10% although the chart isn't quite as dramatic.

You see the same thing in income disparity during the same time frame.

en.wikipedia.org...:IncomeInequality7.svg&page=1

A good portion of this debt was borrowed from private investors who benefit by collecting the interest. Income on which they pay a nominal tax rate while those of us who "earn" our wages are taxed at 2 to 3 times the rate. I talk to die-hard republican's on a daily basis that have not a dime in savings that will defend the reduced interest rate tax to the death.

Years ago I too thought that the large corporations were working themselves out of a customer base by outsourcing jobs. It took a while for me to realize that they weren't... they've been busy growing a newer, larger customer base in the various countries they outsource to. As consumers, we in the US will never touch China or India.

I personally like the idea of tariffs as a means to somewhat even the playing field since we can't effectively compete against a country where there are no environmental protections in place and no labor laws. The flip side, it is true that the middle class consumer will be priced out on a good many items we take for granted. Interestingly enough, in the early days of the US, before they managed to sneak income tax in as an emergency tax to pay for war, almost the entirety of the Federal Government's income was derived from tariffs.

Sounds contradictory but, I think they should raise the corporate tax rate. Everyone talks about how high the US rate already is but corporate taxes comprise less than 12% of all receipts.

www.google.com...:&imgrefurl=http://www.doobybrain.com/2007/04/20/the- budget-graph-releases-death-and-taxes-2008/&docid=KbrBgH4SifYe3M&imgurl=http://www.doobybrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/death-and-taxes-closeup.j pg&w=647&h=526&ei=eIB_UPWxM4eByAHFi4C4Cw&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=341&sig=114474728877343370417&page=1&tbnh=136&tbnw=201&start=0&ndsp=44&ved=1t:429,r:6,s:0, i:156&tx=130&ty=72

There are so many expenses and loopholes, very few businesses actually post taxable income. Ask G.E., numerous returns ZERO income tax... google it.

You would simultaneously have to impose some kind of penalty for outsourcing.

What I think would happen is those companies really interested in doing business in the US would actually spend more on employees and capital expenditures since it would ultimately help them reduce their tax liability. Obviously both would benefit jobs here at home the first directly, the second by generating employment in construction and manufacturing as companies upgraded their facilities and equipment.

But, what do I know?

Originally posted by Mijamija
Sadly, the guy who works the hardest, often dies the poorest, but the guy who works the smartest gets ahead.

Not only smartest, to get on top it really helps to be vicious, greedy, backstabbing, suck up to the right people and other things that go against mine and many others values.

You don't absolutely need those qualities to be millionaire but you do need most of them to be a billionaire.
We all make our owns goals and rules of life, so I'm not here to play the billionaire.

I just find that it shouldn't be that hard to ask for at least a little social responsibility from corporations. Right now, their game is to the detriment of the majority and its time we start a new game with new rules, but that could be just my opinion.

Originally posted by hououinkyouma
reply to post by newcovenant

 

Mitt Romney didn`t get there without working.

Busting rocks are not the only hard work. Using your mind is a hard work too.

Didn't get where exactly?
In an Ivory Tower above me with his own set of rules and privileges now?

Originally posted by Mijamija
reply to post by newcovenant

 

some would argue that the guy busting rocks should " work smarter, not harder"

Meaning that hard work is something almost anyone with a healthy body can do.......but it takes more than hard work to get rich.....it also takes being smart enough to work the system to your favor.

If all it took was hard work, we'd live in a nation of millionaires on every corner!

Sadly, the guy who works the hardest, often dies the poorest, but the guy who works the smartest gets ahead.

It's not fair, it sux, but it seems to be how this world works.

What??? Work the system. That is not a fair system if you have to "work" it. It should work for you.

You people have been crapped on and kicked around so often you don't know when something is plain unfair.

reply to post by theMediator


I agree with you. There is a lot involved in getting ahead.....not all of it is very nice. I was not saying "yeah" and cheer leading any of it, I actually can't stand it.

And to mystikmushroom, sorry for going off topic.

reply to post by newcovenant


Like I said.....I can't stand it. But I am trying not to further derail the op which is about trickle down economic policies, so I will say this to get back on topic.

Trickle down only works when companies take their profits and invest wisely, by opening up new stores, new factories, innovating their products, branching out and creating new products, employing new workers for the new stores.

If companies do not do these things, and instead squander the money on bad investments, stick the funds in off shore banks, or give their CEOs lavish bonuses, then trickle down doesn't work.

Some companies have become over ran by greed and poor business decisions, and we all suffer from it.