My alien can beat your alien! Foolishness in beliefs.

Let's cut to the chase: if you can provide evidence that your alien really exists and I accept your evidence then I'll change from a skeptic about the reality of aliens to one of acceptance. But let me be up front in so many words: to me alleged aliens exist only in the mind of those claiming they're real. Of course, it goes without saying that I also do not accept even one case of alleged alien abductions. I'm familiar with the literature which I've been reading since 1958. Aliens can be compared to religions since they are both the creation of the mind. Whitley Strieber did more harm than good when his book "COMMUNION" featured an image of what is now claimed to be the de rigueur alien.

Below is a summarized "history" slightly edited by me of how aliens were created. Amazingly, until Strieber's alien image which became the icon of aliens, all of the other aliens went the way of all the gods of ancient history such as the Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Mayan (as representative of all Central and South American gods). So, similarly, even though all of the other gods are gone and we have Jesus's image, all of the other aliens are gone and we have Strieber's. The mind is a wonderful thing but when it is misused, such as it is by unquestioning believers, somethings become "written in stone".

Can you imagine the wonders that humankind would have accomplished if skeptics and atheists had been dominant instead of believers who have stunted humankind's growth? Oh, to dream.

en.wikipedia.org...
Grey alienFrom Wikipedia
The science fiction writer H. G. Wells, in the article "Man of the Year Million" in 1893, describes humanity transformed into a race of grey-skinned beings, stunted and with big heads. In his 1901 book The First Men in the Moon, Selenites, or natives of the Moon, are described as having grey skin, big heads, large black eyes and wasp stings.

In 1933, the Swedish novelist Gustav Sandgren, using the pen name Gabriel Linde, published a science fiction novel called Den okända faran (The Unknown Danger), where he describes a race of extraterrestrials: "[...] the creatures did not resemble any race of humans. They were short, shorter than the average Japanese, and their heads were big and bald, with strong, square foreheads, and very small noses and mouths, and weak chins. What was most extraordinary about them were the eyes – large, dark, gleaming, with a sharp gaze.

In 1965, newspaper reports of the Betty and Barney Hill abduction brought Greys to international attention.

During the early 1980s Greys were linked in popular culture to the alleged crash landing of a flying saucer in Roswell, New Mexico, in 1947, by a number of publications which contained statements from individuals who claimed to have seen the U.S. military handling a number of unusually proportioned, bald, child-sized beings. These individuals claimed that the beings had over-sized heads and slanted eyes—but scant other facial features—during and after the incident.[4]

In 1987, popular novelist Whitley Strieber published the book "COMMUNION" (it refers to a catholic ritual and Strieber is catholic), in which he describes a number of close encounters he purports to have experienced with Greys and other extraterrestrial beings. The book features an illustration that has become the icon for ETs.

webspace.utexas.edu...
•GEORGE ADAMSKI - made headlines in the winter of 1953, when he reported that the year before, he had met and talked with a man from Venus ... by the friendly, profoundly wise Space Brothers from Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn... all of whom were physically indistinguishable from earth humans. There are reports of Adamski on his tours at times being accompanied by two lovely women, forerunners of rock “groupies,” who were introduced by George, with a slight twinkle in his eye, as his “official bodyguards from Venus... meet Kalna, and Illmuth!”

British UFO enthusiast Gavin Gibbons (1922 - 1978) published They Rode in Space Ships in 1957, summarizing in immense detail the alleged extraterrestrial experiences of newer contactees Daniel Fry and Truman Bethurum,

•TRUMAN BETHURUM
in 1954 published a book, Aboard a Flying Saucer, recounting how, in “late July” of 1952, he had met and talked with a human-appearing woman from the hitherto-unknown planet Clarion. Her name was Captain Aura Rhanes.

•DANIEL W. FRY
in 1954 published his book,The White Sands Incident, explaining how he had met and talked with A-Lan, a human-appearing space alien whose race, now dwelling in giant space ships, once colonized Mars after being driven by catastrophy from the Theosophical Lost Continent of Lemuria on our earth!

•GEORGE VAN TASSEL
came to Landers, California in 1947 and bought Giant Rock, a gigantic boulder about 7 stories tall. He opened an airport and cafe near the rock, and tried to promote tourist business. Van Tassel claimed in 1955 that he began to meditate in a cave excavated under the Rock, and managed to call down a flying saucer from Venus.

•ORFEO ANGELUCCI
seems to be one of the more obscure of the 1950s contactees. Angelucci, an aircraft-plant assembly-line worker, claimed in 1955 that he had met and talked with superhuman beings from other planets, who placed him in a shuttle and took him to earth orbit, where he saw a gigantic Mother Ship drift past. ... his Space Brothers exist in higher dimensions, so that on “our plane” they are insubstantial and transparent, and they and their vehicles can appear and disappear at will... a feature that did not become standard until the dreamlike UFO abduction tales of the 1990s.

•GEORGE KING
jumped on the bandwagon in 1956. A taxi-driver interested in yoga and oriental religions, he said then that back in the summer of 1954 he had suddenly received telepathic messages from the “Cosmic Masters of the Solar System,”

•BUCK NELSON
is my favorite among all the 1950s contactees. His claims date from 1957, when he was a ripe 63 years of age. This farmer in the Missouri Ozarks led no religious cult. The slightly cross-eyed, overall-attired Buck told reporters that in July of 1956 a spacecraft landed on his farm, and he was eventually taken to Mars, where he was given a 385-pound Venusian black dog named Bo.

•BETTY HILL
spoiled it all in the mid 1960s when she began to have nightmares about being kidnapped by inhuman, enigmatic, diminutive space aliens.

•EDUARD "Billy" MEIER
His saucer-riding claims date from about 1965 and are closely based on Adamski's, including trips to the mother ship in earth orbit, on to Venus, etc. His main innovation was to have the Space Brothers come from another solar system.

•OTHER CULT LEADERS—
During the 1950s and 1960s there were dozens of individuals who claimed to be in telepathic communication with friendly space aliens

My favorite is Buck Nelson too with his naked space brothers and their dog, and his accounts about hillbilly utopias on Mars and Venus where polygamy was the norm.

Here's a wonderful thread on Buck: Buck Nelson - First man on Mars...Moon...oh...Venus too

reply to post by The Shrike


It's 2012.

Most of the cases you referenced happened in the '50's and '60's which doesn't really matter but I was just wondering if there is a reason?

As far as the main point I guess for now it's something you believe or you don't.

Do you believe in god? Have you seen him? I don't and I sure haven't but it's "faith" right?

I find it to be easier to wrap my mind around the possibility of another form of life in the universe than some magical being who created everything one day just because why because he was bored?

reply to post by The Shrike

Just a question, how would we be more advanced if nobody believed in aliens?

Alien life is real, it is an unavoidable consequence of a universe as large as ours.

Not to say I have seen one, I have never seen anything that can't be explained. It has always been a satellite, or airplane, or venus etc.

I have never been or met anyone who was abducted either, nor do I possess the ability to not roll my eyes at those who claim they were, as it seems to follow the same examples you stated in your OP.

However, saying aliens aren't real, is very ignorant, as you can't possibly know they don't exist in our own solar system, not to mention the entirety of space.

I would say your a small minded type, with very little in the way of rational thinking, if you don't believe they are out there. Because most of the smartest people on earth would agree with me and not you sir.

Dominant in what? Politics, science, military, business?

Originally posted by cavalryscout
reply to post by The Shrike

 

It's 2012.

Most of the cases you referenced happened in the '50's and '60's which doesn't really matter but I was just wondering if there is a reason?

As far as the main point I guess for now it's something you believe or you don't.

Do you believe in god? Have you seen him? I don't and I sure haven't but it's "faith" right?

I find it to be easier to wrap my mind around the possibility of another form of life in the universe than some magical being who created everything one day just because why because he was bored?

Yeah, it's 2012 and aliens are just as rampant as ever with alien abduction claims replacing the "benevolent" aliens. Do you really think that there is any truth to the "new" downright nasty aliens, in all of their varieties? Or do new thoughts result in a more realistic representation of how humans treat each other disguised as mental aliens?

The early cases didn't matter, in the long run, because while there are always believers, for some reason humans in the '50s and '60s had a higher standard in believing outrageous claims. Their descendants, today's youth, don't have the higher standards and believe everything, hence beliefs in hostile aliens.

I don't believe in anything 'cause I don't have a belief system and never did. So religious myths are personas non grata with me. I understand what makes a believer thanks to being taught hypnosis by a legend and associating with other legends, top hypnotists.

I cannot accept the possibility of life aside from us. Amounts of planets do not automatically mean they're peopled and those people visit Earth.

Originally posted by inverslyproportional
reply to post by The Shrike

 

Just a question, how would we be more advanced if nobody believed in aliens?

Alien life is real, it is an unavoidable consequence of a universe as large as ours.

Not to say I have seen one, I have never seen anything that can't be explained. It has always been a satellite, or airplane, or venus etc.

I have never been or met anyone who was abducted either, nor do I possess the ability to not roll my eyes at those who claim they were, as it seems to follow the same examples you stated in your OP.

However, saying aliens aren't real, is very ignorant, as you can't possibly know they don't exist in our own solar system, not to mention the entirety of space.

I would say your a small minded type, with very little in the way of rational thinking, if you don't believe they are out there. Because most of the smartest people on earth would agree with me and not you sir.

We would not necessarily be more advanced if no one believed in aliens.

Alien life is NOT real, that's just a romantic thought. You are just espousing a belief held by many.

I've had 6 sightings. UFOs are real, the evidence is overwhelming. Aliens are not, no evidence, just claims.

Claims of abductions by aliens fall into hearsay. You want to believe the claimants, that's your choice because you don't demand evidence and say-so is good enough for you. I do roll my eyes!

Saying aliens are real is as ignorant as you can get for you are not saying it from experience but from a belief. Beliefs are created by the mind. You can't say they exist as you can't prove it and it's not up to me to prove it.

Don't align yourself with believers and say I'm wrong for I don't have a belief system and you can't prove yourself right and me wrong.

reply to post by The Shrike


I do not believe the abduction stories as stated in my response to your OP.

We are one planet with life in absolutely every environment studied, from the driest, to the wettest, to the coldest to the hottest, to even the most toxic and poisonous.

Many types have now been found that don't share any ancestors with any other forms of life on this planet, menaing life has started out of nothing several differnt times several different ways.

There will have to be by nothing but odds alone, billions of worlds just like ours, by chemical content, position from a similar star as ours. There are ging to be discovered billions of "earths" in the universe.

There will be many forms of life on these planets alone, even if it can only form on these types of planets and no others. It is simple deduction, no faith involved.

I don't have faith, I don't believe in your fake God or any other. There are no Gods, there are only life forms, and elements, that's it.

Originally posted by taccj9903
Dominant in what? Politics, science, military, business?

Yes, in everything for we skeptics and atheists are superior to believers. We don't carry mental baggage that is not beneficial. Religious believers do not operate with their minds 100% as they have to allocate part of their minds to the fear of god or the devil. They are controlled by their priests, ministers, etc., who tell them how to behave. Think Jim Jones and how his followers died for him. Think political supporters who are convinced that their candidate is the one to solve their problems.

Mental slavery prevents humans from performing at 100% efficiency. Religious believers perform certain favors because they do it to earn heavenly rewards not because it's the right, human, thing to do. Altruism is not performed by religious believers.

So in politics atheists would be dominant is seeing to it that financial aid, supplied by taxpayers, would not go for any religious purpose. Let god print his own money! And more swearing in on a bible, instead it would be on a copy of the Constitution and ceremonies would not be preceded by praying to a non-existent god.

In science skeptics would not allow false results to come to life. Proof or nothing.

In the military religious exercises would not exist and killing for christ would end.

In business, everything goes.

reply to post by The Shrike


Another idea worthy of noting in your history of how 'Grey Aliens' were created is the theory that The Outer Limits TV show influenced Betty and Barney Hills depiction of Aliens.

On the "10th of February 1964; 12 days prior to the Hill's undergoing hypnosis, the science fiction series The Outer Limits ran an episode entitled "The Bellero Shield", which featured a hairless, noseless alien with a bulbous head and 'wrap-around eyes'." source

That they had seen the episode is disputed by Betty though....I thought it was worth mentioning nonetheless.

Also other Episodes of The Outer Limits that played just before the Hill's hypnosis have been suggested as having just as much of an influence, or even more than 'The Bellero Shield', An interesting discussion of this can be found in this article www.jasoncolavito.com...

Originally posted by The Shrike

Originally posted by taccj9903
Dominant in what? Politics, science, military, business?

Yes, in everything for we skeptics and atheists are superior to believers. We don't carry mental baggage that is not beneficial.

So if I understand you correctly you are saying someone who is an atheist or skeptic is superior to someone who believes in aliens. And that atheists and skeptics mental baggage is more beneficial somehow to the mental baggage of say anyone who believes in aliens.

I'm not even sure why I bothered to reply to this most after realizing what you are saying. I'll take my mental baggage over yours anyday.

Originally posted by The Shrike

Can you imagine the wonders that humankind would have accomplished if skeptics and atheists had been dominant instead of believers who have stunted humankind's growth? Oh, to dream.

This was already tried in the former Soviet Union, which was the first country to attempt elimination of religion and making atheism the official doctrine of the ruling communist party, considering religion nonscientific. Think Lenin and Stalin - not exactly your dream leaders that brought peace and prosperity to the world.

A little morality and tolerance to people's beliefs may work better. And education.

Speaking as a skeptic and atheist myself.

reply to post by The Shrike


It is highly unlikely that aliens would ever abduct anyone. with techonogly that advanced they would only need a single dna sample. Also over billions of years of techonogical advancement the only thing that remains would likely be synthetic.

Social interations and the progress of civilizations arent nearly as unpredictable as some believe..

I will say this again can the OP provide evidence that proves beyond all doubt that there is no possibility of there being advanced ET intelligences having the teck to visit us and that not ONE high strangeness UFO case can be possibly afforded to a ET source.Off course the OP cannot ,cannot prove that there is no possibility and for that REALITY and the cold hard fact is that the OP fails in trying to yet again attack the ET possibility of being a source for just ONE UFO case,that in its self suggests an agenda of not just ones opinion ,(biased), which is really based on no real scientific rebuffs or evidence but an agenda of the burden of proof mentality that in reality is an attempt to dismantle any real evidence already in out there that is not the "nuts and bolts" or "UFO landing on the Whitehouse lawn" demands.

I often ask myself that when people start threads attacking the lack of real evidence for ET visitations or even rejecting any of the evidence outside the "Whitehouse lawn" demands from credible sources like Dr James E MacDonald what POSITION of credibility ,be it scientific or military do they have to justify their rejections of lets say Dr MaDonalds investigation's , in what way do they hold sway over such sources.The arrogance and lack of justifications of credibility so often transparent in these kind of threads is DAMAGING to the conclusions and scientific investigative proceeduars carried out by sources like MacDonald and the conclusions he reached by them.

We could be POSSIBLY dealing with highly advanced intelligences not only in the technological capabilities but also in the spiritual or inter dimensional capabilities too.Who is to say otherwise that there is NO possibility in either of these realities , it may serve a purpose and seem mighty clever to deliberately list known hoaxes or money making individuals to attack the possibility of the ET origins but what about those cases that stand up on their own, that remain unsolved due to the high levels of strangeness they contain and that applies to abduction or contact cases too.

The often lop sided or biased content that is transparent in these kind of "attack and demand evidence" threads more often than not NEVER mention or include those cases that are hard to dismiss or debunk, that for me is the red flag , they ignore or reject them not out of a justifiable and credible scientific stand point but because these cases serve as a credible reminder that to dismiss ALL possibilities of ET origins is both unprofessional,un scientific and unjustified.That there are other formats of evidence out side the "Whitehouse lawn" demands is a reality that cannot be overlooked or dismissed by those who unjustifiably reject such data because it serves no purpose to their attacks.

Sources like Dr James E , MacDonald and his conclusions after his investigation's,(including the hundreds of credible witnesses he also interviewed), have to be included in any debate or rejection of the possible ET origins for some UFO cases,that is no flight of fancy or even an unjustifiable demand but one that needs welcoming and i for one choose to make the foundation of my perception that some UFOs could very well have a ET origin on the evidence put forward by such sources as MacDonald,he is the kind of source that i listen too,why because its a scientific and credible way to approach this UFO./ET enigma.

reply to post by K-PAX-PROT


can anyone prove I'm not a 50 foot kick-ass super ninja from space? of course not silly.

I believe what is laid out is a good case for an alien mythology. I personally believe that humans need mythologies to be human. there does not appear to be any tangible evidence for ET. it than stands that it's a mythology.

Originally posted by The Shrike

The early cases didn't matter, in the long run, because while there are always believers, for some reason humans in the '50s and '60s had a higher standard in believing outrageous claims. Their descendants, today's youth, don't have the higher standards and believe everything, hence beliefs in hostile aliens.

So early cases didn't matter because they had higher standards in illusion?

Today's cases don't matter because today's youth don't have higher standards?

Belief in bad aliens denotes lower standards.

You are offended because the illusions of today aren't warm and fuzzy?

Seems if you don't believe in aliens then you could pretty much end it there.
Being bothered by today's youth having no standards and believing in hostile aliens really seems a bit too involved for someone who knows that everyone who believes in aliens is wrong.

Sounds to me like you are trying to convince yourself of something.

reply to post by badgerprints


I believe this entire OP is in response to the "alien hypothesis" thread, and he makes as much sense in this one as he did in that one, none.

Demanding prood or it doesn't exists, is failed logic, as it is known already that the universe is big enough, with enough space and time, for absolutely everything imaginable to happen.

Thinking we are the only possible life out of trillions of earths that are out there is just not very scientific.

It is a logical as saying," I took an entire glass of water out of the ocean and it was empty, there are no such things as fish, unless you can show me one right now.".

reply to post by The Shrike


There are many species on earth that have evolved camouflage, the ability to appear like another species or inanimate object.

The fact that an octopus can mimic algae doesn't mean the octopus doesn't exist.

Similarly, the fact that alleged encountered entities seem to follow trends in appearance (much like UFOs themselves) doesn't necessarily mean they are wholly the product of people's minds, although that is one possibility.

Another possibility is that there is a real intelligence behind these reports but that it is able to use our own expectations to shape the way it appears to us. Hence the historical reports of fairies, angels, djinn, kobalds, demons, incubi and succubi etc etc and latterly Nordics and Grey aliens.

Indeed, if one extends the camouflage analogy further it seems apparent that, if these entities do exist, then deception may be a large part of their modus operandi. What if appearing as grey aliens is simply another way of distracting us from their true nature?

It's good to be skeptical and scientific in your approach to such phenomena but it may be the phenomena in question is not amenable to such types of inquiry.

Science works well in a lab, studying creatures and phenomena that do not have an agenda. But what if the thing being studied by the scientist was actively trying to deceive them? And not only that but the thing being studied was actually more intelligent that the person doing the studying. Would the scientist be able to garner any kind of meaningful results from such a study?

Originally posted by The Shrike

Alien life is NOT real, that's just a romantic thought. You are just espousing a belief held by many.

Alien life hasn't been proved but statistically the chances of Earth being the only place life exists are miniscule. Rather than being a romantic thought, I suspect most scientists believe that alien life exists.

If it doesn't then that would be more baffling and certainly harder to explain. Life would then have to be viewed as something so amazingly unlikely as to almost be a miracle.

Assuming that life developed on Earth in accordance with the known physical properties of matter, then it must be assumed that the same thing will occur wherever and wherever the same conditions arise, assuming the same physical laws apply across the universe. In a universe with an incomprehensible amount of stars, the safe money has to be on life having arisen many, many, many times elsewhere.

You really believe we are all alone in this universe?

The normal skeptic simply dismisses ET visitation due to lack of concrete evidence, and so they should.
You're actually taking a giant leap of faith and proclaiming that aliens aren't real at all.

The numbers alone would suggest otherwise to an overwhelming degree.
Why are you so convinced there is no alien life?

If you cannot see beyond the mountain, do you infer that nothing is there?

Im very curious about why you believe what you do.