I have proof Obamacare will ruin healthcare in America

reply to post by longlostbrother

Communism states that the WORKERS own the means of production and share the profits.

This is a dead horse. Worker control of production is the product of State control. I'm sorry but the former Soviet Union has already borne this reality out. The State never withers away as Marx hoped it would. His philosophy is fallacy and has never been proven to work successfully in any State or nation, and it has never happened without force of violence.

Perhaps you are holding out for an ideal Utopian communism which has never existed yet you still feel can be accomplished, but the fact remains the same that the State owns everything and the individual nothing. That is what collectivism is, and we but see varying degrees of it as implemented by people who wish to have it manifest fully.

Economic and social system in which all (or nearly all) property and resources are collectively owned by a classless society and not by individualcitizens. Based on the 1848 publication 'Communist Manifesto' by two German political philosophers, Karl Marx (1818-1883) and his close associate Friedrich Engels (1820-1895), it envisaged common ownership of all land and capital and withering away of the coercive power of the state. In such a society, social relations were to be regulated on the fairest of all principles: from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs. Differences between manual and intellectual labor and between rural and urban life were to disappear, opening up the way for unlimited development of human potential. In view of the above, there has never been a truly communist state although the Soviet Union of the past and China, Cuba, and North Korea of today stake their claims. See also Marxism and Socialism.

www.businessdictionary.com...

Cuba is still communist and have one of the worst health care system on the planet.

The OP should google how bad the US healthcare system is in the world ranking.
Then maybe instead of trying to slag off our NHS he may realize that we have a better healthcare system than the US at the moment.
Yeah you can look into mistakes made in the NHS but I forget there are no mistakes made in US healthcare :/ .
The NHS have saved my life twice and I gladly pay some of my taxes to know that if I get ill dedicated caring people in the NHS will do everything they can to make me better without an added worry of getting a bill at the end of the treatment.
Also check how cost effective the NHS is, it is far more cost effective than US healthcare.
We train the best doctors in the world and many people come to the UK to train in medicine because of the NHS.

It may be an unpopular opinion, but every day in the US, we're keeping millions of very old, very frail and very infirm folks alive by virtue of very expensive care. They spend their days trapped in a chair, bed or a wheelchair staring out the window or at F'ing Fox News in some nursing home lobby (a form of torture, to be sure). They're on oxygen, dozens of expensive meds, require around the clock care, and for what? Another day of supreme boredom, hoping that a family member or friend will visit for a few minutes every month? They can't even read a book or the newspaper, their brains seem to be made of cobwebs. We've achieved the ability to keep near-corpses alive for years... and we're going broke doing it.

On the other side of the world, we've gotten very good at bombing innocent children and pretending they are somehow Al-Qaida.

We don't have a government anymore, we have a completely insane system of obscene expenditures of public monies.

And for those who disagree with me and state that, 'that's my mom you're talking about', well, go to the nursing home, bring her home and take care of her 24/7 if you care so much. It's a nightmare trying to care for someone when the brain is gone and the body is failing.

reply to post by signalfire


I work in a care home for the old and in a horrid way which Iam ashamed off I agree with you, most of my old dudes and dudettes are in pain most of the time and a week doesn't go by without one of them asking me to let them die.
Most are on 25+ pills a day and most do not know what day of the week it is.
I think in the future they will bring in a maximum age, if you look at how many old people are going to be around in 20 years you will be afraid because we can not afford to help them all.
(BTW I will be one of those old people and I know for a fact I will not let myself become a burden to anyone).

reply to post by grandmakdw


The first line of your OP is wrong...this is not socialized medicine. So based on that entirely first sentence, I would say you fail.

By the way I was starved for TWO DAYS in AN AMERICAN HOSPITAL after giving birth to my last child just because I was not up to bed room before they took orders and my aunt had to run out to buy me dinner and my children's father had to run out for me to get me something to eat the next day because they never got my orders from the previous day, with A PRIVATE HEALTH PLAN THAT WAS THE TOP ONE OFFERED AT MY JOB! An American Hospital killed my children's father's mother from incompetance. ON PREMIUM PRIVATE HEALTH PLAN with medicare because of her age.

Originally posted by AntiNWO

Originally posted by n00bUK
I'm glad my country helps you without checking you;re pockets first for insurance. Yes they may of not left you to die, but you would be chagred and may as well of been dead because you aint able to ever afford that bill.

That is the myth about the American healthcare system and I can tell you from personal experience that it's a fallacy.

I had a life-threatening illness and had to rush to the emergency room. I was told that I would have to stay overnight, which turned into 3 more days. The entire time I was telling them that I was unemployed, had no insurance and would never be able to pay for it, and they kept telling me not to worry about it, and gave me outstanding treatment that saved my life.

The state ended up paying my bill which amounted to about $30,000 because of my unemployment status. I had to jump through some unbelieveable hoops to prove my citizenship and financial situation, but it was eventually sorted out.

Also, I can vouch for the OP's treatment while in the hospital. My stay was exactly the same way, with a full-time nurse, good food when I wanted it, all the needed medication, and test after test to make sure the treatment was correct and effective.

I dread the day that this healthcare system will be turned over to the same people who run the DMV.

Are you f****** kidding me?

You don't want a global healthcare system but you are glad the state paid YOUR 30k debt to the hospital?

You think it's ok for YOU to get free healthcare (by getting your bill paid by the state) and be unemployed while people who work their a**es off to bring a minimum of bread and water on the table can't afford insurance or medical bills and are left behind?

If you had a minimal wage job, the state wouldn't had paid your bills. You probably would have died of that condition or would have been paying for the rest of your life to the hospital.

I have some news for you, it's people like you who are crippling the economy of a country. You take without giving and you whine that a global system that could help a lot of people would be bad?

The american way of thinking makes me sick sometimes...

Nobody can refuse to not treat you if you are dying or just injured or sick. That will never happen, doctors sending you home to die...that's basically killing that person yourself. Doctors have a conscious just like everyone else. Even if all that was true they wouldn't care what the law is they are sworn in to help everybody in need. If a doctor see's a person that needs serious help and doesn't do anything about it, he can kiss his job goodbye.

reply to post by grandmakdw


You have to understand the mentality of globalists. Right now the best doctors a world over come to America because they will be rewarded the most for their effort. It is the same with the American low cost of living, something which angered the European elite for several centuries. As it caused many to leave for America, causing a lower amount of labor to be exploited in Europe(forcing them to treat people better in order to compete).


By sabotaging the Amrican medical system it will improve the medical care of other countries as the best doctors will no longer consider it worth their while to uproot for America. Remember the globalist mantra,,"greatest good for the greatest number". They will bring hell on earth to America in order to improve the perceived quality of life elsewhere.

Originally posted by boymonkey74
reply to post by signalfire

 

I work in a care home for the old and in a horrid way which Iam ashamed off I agree with you, most of my old dudes and dudettes are in pain most of the time and a week doesn't go by without one of them asking me to let them die.
Most are on 25+ pills a day and most do not know what day of the week it is.
I think in the future they will bring in a maximum age, if you look at how many old people are going to be around in 20 years you will be afraid because we can not afford to help them all.
(BTW I will be one of those old people and I know for a fact I will not let myself become a burden to anyone).

edit on 17-10-2012 by boymonkey74 because: (no reason given)

There you have it, right from a leftist. Feigning concern while gleefully advocating for mass murder, this is why they want to take guns away, label people as property of the state via universal healthcare laws(the only way the state can tax inactivity if it is taxing property). And use the justification of "saving costs" to force their sick views of
prohibition, veganism and other leftist control freak "what is right for me must be absolutely right for everyone else, and if it isn't we will just wipe them all out".

reply to post by grandmakdw


Your proof is certainly nothing like proof at all, but beyond that aspect, what is there to ruin? A system which is predicted to account for more than 50% of our GDP by 2040? Which currently spends approximately far more than any other nation as a percentage of GDP while rank far below the top in level of care.

My employer pays about $10,000 per employee (some single, some with spouse coverage, some with kids.) my contribution is about $6,000 a year. Then I pay 100% until my deductible is met, which, since our family, means we pretty much pay out of pocket for everything, despite throwing $16,000 at the insurance corporations so that they can pay for people to take ridiculous amounts of prescription meds (besides legitimate, proper care.) I mean really, we pay huge sums of money so that people can give their children amphetamines (adderall.)

Our system is totally screwed as it stands. We take FAR more prescription meds than any other nation - and our results are not as good as those of other nations. Insurance corporations and Pharma corporations make billions upon billions of dollars perpetrating the world's 50th-best healthcare upon us. Insurance/pharma garners far higher Return On Investment than doctors, hospitals, etc. The whole thing has been a total wreck while left up to private enterprise, with supplemental taxpayer money dumped inefficiently back to those same companies.

This is an industry which really does require a combination of tightly regulated private enterprise, as well as universal guarantees of healthcare coverage. It also really requires a change in thinking about health. There's a place for prescription meds, but they're overused. Antibiotics prescribed for viral infections - going against all known medical science, influenza vaccines all over the place, when its rarely life-threatening, and only affects 1% of the population annually,amphetamines for kids (now being given, as a recent New York Times article discussed, to help kids to better in school - not because they have ADD, but because it works, permanent Lipitor so people can continue eating poorly, psoriasis drugs which clear up psoriasis yet lead to more illness, including cancer, and the biggest drain on resources of all, diabetes - not all, but much of which is caused by poor choices.

Sorry for the long and meandering rant, but it just gets to me...the various proposed systems are not good either, but people act like we have a decent healthcare system in the U.S. - we don't. And facing the possibility that in a matter of decades, healthcare spending will account for more than half of our nation's economy is terrifying. Add in food and fuel, and there's not much left for clothing, housing, military, vehicles. Everything, not just healthcare, but EVERYTHING, will collapse under the weight of this, the most broken system on Earth.

Originally posted by korathin

Originally posted by boymonkey74
reply to post by signalfire

 

I work in a care home for the old and in a horrid way which Iam ashamed off I agree with you, most of my old dudes and dudettes are in pain most of the time and a week doesn't go by without one of them asking me to let them die.
Most are on 25+ pills a day and most do not know what day of the week it is.
I think in the future they will bring in a maximum age, if you look at how many old people are going to be around in 20 years you will be afraid because we can not afford to help them all.
(BTW I will be one of those old people and I know for a fact I will not let myself become a burden to anyone).

edit on 17-10-2012 by boymonkey74 because: (no reason given)

There you have it, right from a leftist. Feigning concern while gleefully advocating for mass murder, this is why they want to take guns away, label people as property of the state via universal healthcare laws(the only way the state can tax inactivity if it is taxing property). And use the justification of "saving costs" to force their sick views of
prohibition, veganism and other leftist control freak "what is right for me must be absolutely right for everyone else, and if it isn't we will just wipe them all out".

I wouldn't worry too much about that. The things you're referring to, well, I think its safe to assume less than 0.2% of the population are proponents of.

As an omnivore, i'm not sure I understand the veganism comment. Are vegans planning to murder us all with carrots or something, or is it just the ominous presence of their very existence which disturbs you?

$600 ... Thaaat doesn't sound like a low end hotel...

reply to post by korathin


No you are just missing my point, I love each one of my old people like they are my own of course I wouldn't condone murder or just letting them die.
But I see what their life is like and I'am telling you every single one of my residents would not have wanted to be in the situation they are in now but because of dementia they are not the people they were.
2 of my residents only have mild dementia and both have said to me "If I get as bad as that (other residents) I hope I die ".
I see what it is like for these people (and their familys) every day and it is a horrid way to live, I do my upmost to give them a degree of happyness and I do things most of you could not/would not do.
My maximum age comment is to do with the future seeing that around 60% of people here in the uk will be over 65 in 20 years hard questions will have to be asked and like I said I will step into that suicide booth willingly if I am not myself or am too much of a burden to others also do not assume Iam a leftist you do not know me.
I suggest living wills and to let people decide when they want to die, we put down other animals when in pain but do not let people go when they are in pain and or not who they were...its horrid.
Do not try to paint me as an evil person because Iam far from it.

The reasons the NHS failed in Britain, was because when it first started it could barely afford to serve the population of Britain post war, but it kept going and actually worked really well and it worked because the majority of the working age population was in employment and people didn't use it unless they really had to. It went to pot when it became the World health Service, people from all over the planet coming to Britain, with their families and bascially the strain was so great. Add to that an ever increasing unemployment rate. Then you have the NHS management, which is top heavy beyond belief and wasting money like no tomorrow. Then there is the issue with GP's where by they bascially had their salaries shoot through the roof under Labour, but based on them saving money with minimal treatment to patients and you have a service now that is close to bankrupting Britain. A service that employs nurses and staff who can't even speak English, just to save money. The NHS needs an 8% increase yearly to even stay afloat! However, the same is said for all public services across Britain!

It was a good idea when it was for British people and Britain was working, but if America is like present day Britain, and Obamacare is based on the NHS, it will destroy your country, I have absolutely no doubt about that.

reply to post by SecretFace


To be fair fella we have to employ people from other countrys because we have had a shortage of nurses for a few years now.
The answer is to pay more or sod it and get out of the EU so we can make our own employment laws up again
Also the NHS is not failing, yes we have big problems with it but we always have. Many of my pals work in the NHS and not one puts less than 100% into the care for their patients.
Oh and what should we do with these foreign people? not treat them?.

Originally posted by SecretFace
The reasons the NHS failed in Britain, was because when it first started it could barely afford to serve the population of Britain post war, but it kept going and actually worked really well and it worked because the majority of the working age population was in employment and people didn't use it unless they really had to. It went to pot when it became the World health Service, people from all over the planet coming to Britain, with their families and bascially the strain was so great. Add to that an ever increasing unemployment rate. Then you have the NHS management, which is top heavy beyond belief and wasting money like no tomorrow. Then there is the issue with GP's where by they bascially had their salaries shoot through the roof under Labour, but based on them saving money with minimal treatment to patients and you have a service now that is close to bankrupting Britain. A service that employs nurses and staff who can't even speak English, just to save money. The NHS needs an 8% increase yearly to even stay afloat! However, the same is said for all public services across Britain!

It was a good idea when it was for British people and Britain was working, but if America is like present day Britain, and Obamacare is based on the NHS, it will destroy your country, I have absolutely no doubt about that.

LOL.

There's always one delusional Brit in these discussions.

Socialised medicine would, based on the success of the NHS, save the US money, provide better care and cover millions more people.

But yeah, sure, those things would destroy America.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by longlostbrother

 

Communism states that the WORKERS own the means of production and share the profits.

This is a dead horse. Worker control of production is the product of State control. I'm sorry but the former Soviet Union has already borne this reality out. The State never withers away as Marx hoped it would. His philosophy is fallacy and has never been proven to work successfully in any State or nation, and it has never happened without force of violence.

Perhaps you are holding out for an ideal Utopian communism which has never existed yet you still feel can be accomplished, but the fact remains the same that the State owns everything and the individual nothing. That is what collectivism is, and we but see varying degrees of it as implemented by people who wish to have it manifest fully.

Economic and social system in which all (or nearly all) property and resources are collectively owned by a classless society and not by individualcitizens. Based on the 1848 publication 'Communist Manifesto' by two German political philosophers, Karl Marx (1818-1883) and his close associate Friedrich Engels (1820-1895), it envisaged common ownership of all land and capital and withering away of the coercive power of the state. In such a society, social relations were to be regulated on the fairest of all principles: from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs. Differences between manual and intellectual labor and between rural and urban life were to disappear, opening up the way for unlimited development of human potential. In view of the above, there has never been a truly communist state although the Soviet Union of the past and China, Cuba, and North Korea of today stake their claims. See also Marxism and Socialism.

www.businessdictionary.com...

Cuba is still communist and have one of the worst health care system on the planet.

edit on 17-10-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

More confusion.

You think I want an communist economy, because I am honest enough to admit that socialised medicine gets better results. That a fact you don't even TRY to refute.

So instead you make ridiculous claims about me wanting the whole world to be Soviet Russia, etc.

I love me some capitalism, but I'm a pragmatic realist. I know, and again, you don't even try to argue against this point, that socialised healthcare gets better results.

You don't argue, because you CAN'T.

The facts are on my side - all you have is the ridiculous claim that grannies using the NHS are secretly wishing for a return of Marxism.

It's wildly dishonest. And it's par for the course when dealing with brainwashed ideologues such as yourself.

And btw: while I wouldn't want to live in Cuba, or any communist country, I am smart enough to know that Cuba's life expectancy matches that of the US and it has a lower infant mortality rate.

so...

OP, I couldn't agree more. My Wife is a Physicians Assistant in NY. She has come home multiple times and stated her concern for Obamacare. Obamacare will close her office the Doctors will not be able to afford to stay in business. So everyone here at ATS that really loves their local doctor and the lovely people that work for them, think twice in November.

reply to post by awhtap



Every healthcare worker and Dr. I know has said the same thing your wife has said.