So how do you explain existence ?

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posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 07:09 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 

The question means nothing, and science can only pin point it down to the things they have tested, and even those are not all that concrete. So when asking were did the sound come from, you can say well from the falling of the tree and the matter the tree is made of and the air involved.

To which you can say were did the things in the tree come from and were did the air come from? You can say from the planet by way of this or that process, and then you can ask how did those things come to be on the planet? To which you can go into outer space and inner space for answer, but even to all that there will always be why? were? and how? You can literally do that all day long and all year long, you can even go trace it all back and into the particles and atoms its made from, and what sound waves are made from, but the fact remains that you always again ask were did those come from?.

And when you ask that you usually get the answer of...big bang....Which is just saying something went boom and all the matter and waves be they sound waves or just water waves were created there and as the universe expanded and matter collided with itself....But then there is always the question of were did all of that come from? And the fact is even if you found out were all that came from, the chances would be that even then you can ask well were did "that" come from, and even if you found god at the end of that long process, well then you can always ask were did god come from? And on and on it can literally go forever.

So again maybe were not really asking the right question, and asking were did everything come from may be the wrong question to ask...In fact in the grand scope of things it may be even totally unimportant were it all came from, maybe more a more important question would be were is it all going. Or even that may not matter at all, and maybe existence is just something that we experience and nothing more then that, but that to may be nowhere near as important as we think it is.

And again maybe existence is just something that is always redefined and repressed almost always and everyday even if we don't see it its constantly and subtly changing after all isnt that what life is change in its many forms, and it and that change can literally be anything you can grasp it to be, and that there is no right or wrong answer but that which you make it to be. It can literally be something that is only what you look at it to be, and what you see it to be, and what your mind can grasp it to be...But even then to those things you can always ask the dreaded questions of how? why? were? when? what for? why not? etc etc etc, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.




posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 07:16 PM
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reply to post by randyvs
 


Why does existence need to be explainable. Maybe you are trying to fit something big in a small box.....



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 07:22 PM
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Originally posted by schuyler
Both the atheist and the fundamentalist are making the same mistake. Atheists, please welcome your fundamentalist brothers in crime. Turns out you both believe in a literal Bible.


Enjoyed reading your post, schuyler, but this is part is hideously over simplified .

Atheists are like any other group and have their disagreements ... a big one is how to handle moderates. Almost all Atheists agree that fundamentalists / literalists are just flat wrong in their opinion or at very least if they are right, it can only be partially so ... (ie if there is a God it's probably not Allah or Yahweh or whoever ... )

Atheists do debate (sometimes vigorously) on how to handle moderates and this often includes people who don't take the bible literally, but still 'follow the faith' or otherwise. I don't know that many Atheists who have an issue with people enjoying reading the writing of a holy book, but I know very many more who have an issue with people actually following it or thinking it's a good place to define ones moral stance even if they don't believe all of it.

I suppose the lowest example are those who read it for literary pleasure. Some would argue that these people enable others to follow religion like a kind of gate way drug. For example, anti-theists / the New Atheist movement might advance arguments to say they still don't approve. Other members of the same group would say they have no interest in even discussing that demographic because it's not the problem.

So no, while your point makes sense in a grammatical way, it doesn't remotely make sense with the point you're trying to make. Plenty of Atheists (in fact I will say most) generally understand that there are multiple ways to interpret a document. In fact, they're often a lot more fluid about it than say a Jehova's Witness. What you're perhaps witnessing are anti-theists who are also Atheists who generally start by attacking from the top down or middle out. I don't actually know an Atheist or anti-theist that starts from 'people that like the poetic qualities of the bible' and move up to 'Osama Bin Laden and evil folks'. Why would they?

Why discuss people that like to read for fun when your actual problem appears to be people that don't read barely enough or are wilfully ignorant.

Major reasons you will find some Atheists not caring for the literary merits of the bible:

1. It has been a defense to teach the bible in schools
2. At the same time many theists want it to be 'wrong' or in 'bad taste' to attack or crit holy books yet you generally don't see people burning flags or protesting funeral services with evil slogans because 'MacBeth was a really good play'.

I've said it before in this thread, but, being respectful as I can, please try to understand what an Atheist is before making blanket statements about them as a whole. Is a little arrogant and crazy talk to assume that a group that is often defined as having more bible knowledge than most theists doesn't understand interpretation of text.
edit on 16-10-2012 by Pinke because: last bit



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 07:27 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 





Humans give birth to babies that grow up to give birth to babies that grow up to give birth to babies... Chickens lay eggs that give birth to chickens that lay eggs that give birth to chickens... Trees drop nuts that grow into trees that drop nuts that grow into trees...


Ha Ha this is fun Jigger ! But you're going to lose because it has to be evidence of something ? You don't get to say what it's evidence of anymore than I do. Same in turn vice versa. I can say it's evidence of this or that by relation. Add to it that it makes total sense and I'm sorry you don't have to look at it as evidence to anything but that doesn't mean I can't present it to a jury. Call it circumstantial if you chose. Still evidence.


Mr XYZ


First of all, we already know that the genesis account is scientifically incorrect.


Then I guess a God doesn't need your science to make it happen. Wouldn't that be the definition of God ? ABC 123.
edit on 16-10-2012 by randyvs because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 08:03 PM
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reply to post by schuyler
 




Now for shuyler's excellent response.



First of all, we already know that the genesis account is scientifically incorrect.


We also know that the Earths one year time period is governed by the time it takes to complete one full orbit around the sun. And that a month is governed by the moon. So what governs a week ? Could it be.................. the Sabbath ? Seven being the perfect number of God ?



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 08:15 PM
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Originally posted by randyvs
With regard to this thread. Posted by Intrepid.
I ask for your civility, your manners and that you be polite to follow members.

Why is it that so many conspire to ridicule the creation account given in Genesis, when they don't seem to have a better one of their own. Not just on ATS, but anywhere you go on the web, or in the world for that matter. It can be seen that, when someone expresses their positive opinion, about the account the Bible gives us for creation of the Universe ( Existence ). Their immediately jumped on by what can only be described as trolls, when they have no better explanation to offer ultimately !

So that will be the premise here'in. Is this a conspiracy or do people of science or anyone else have any explanations for existence, that don't sound just as loony, as most of the trolls make the account given in Genesis sound ? To date, I haven't heard one. Evolution conveniently just doesn't go there. To me it just makes sense that existence and consciousness come from something that exists and is conscious. It's that way in everything we see everyday. And I don't believe we humans are the highest form of existence or any of the aliens either.

But if you have one ? I'd like to read it .


The fact that I disagree with the literal saga put forth in Genesis 1, in no way implies a conspiracy.
The fact that "I don't know" what happened, simply means - I wasn't there...and cannot vouch for what anyone-else says (or "believes") happened.
My own "belief" on the topic is at least as ridiculed as yours...yet I consider it the most likely.
As a rule, I don't debate the subject. My own world-view experienced a dramatic shift a few years ago...and - where a future "hope" was always a part of my "view" before...it became anything-but-hope on the flip-side.
I found that in discussing this topic (Genesis 1, Genesis 2 &/or Genesis 3) with those who believe it...no-one's beliefs made it through...unscathed.
I will, though, say that some of the most interesting "challenges" I've seen to the Evolutionary Theory came out of those attempting to "prove" the Genesis account...
Good luck in your quest!



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 08:18 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


randyvs


Oh everything natural just happens naturally because nature is natural and so naturally that's how natural things happen in nature. Come on !


Jigger


I love this statement! It's been going through my head for an hour.


Just now ran into this.
The best damn laugh of my day jigger. Gawd that's funny. Apologies for the ear worm.
LMAO tho.

Jigger


There is an all-knowing, all-powerful, invisible being who created the whole universe, who lives in another dimension, is perfect in every way, and who was never born and will never die.


But Jigger ! That's the very definition of God isn't it ? Now define definition ? Or try this one instead. We as human beings are the most superfalous ultimate intelligence grandiose being to ever experience existence. You want a laugh ? Try that one on for size. I can't imagine anything funnier that that.

" I know of two things that go to infinity. The universe and the stupidity of man. I'm not completely sure about the universe. "
Albert Einstien
edit on 16-10-2012 by randyvs because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 08:20 PM
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Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by schuyler
 


Now for shuyler's excellent response.


First of all, we already know that the genesis account is scientifically incorrect.


We also know that the Earths one year time period is governed by the time it takes to complete one full orbit around the sun. And that a month is governed by the moon. So what governs a week ? Could it be.................. the Sabbath ? Seven being the perfect number of God ?


Umm, I did not say that quote, but I submit it is a fair paraphrase. Still, you quoted....so no soup for you! To your point, what is your point? We also call this year 2012 and say that it (more or less) corresponds to the birth of Jesus. Some of our favorite profanity comes directly from religion (and violates a commandment.) I'm sure astute readers could point out dozens of correspondences between religion and culture, even fundamental things like the number of days in a week.

But that doesn't make them magical. We're not going to change the days of the days of the week, named after planets, pagan gods, and goddesses, any time soon, but the fact is a week of seven days has no heavenly correspondence any more than the Mayan calendar portends doom in a few weeks.

Oh, wait....

And puhlease, whomever, don't call me simplistic. Making fun of Christian fundamentalism, whether you are an atheist, and anti-theist, or an aytheist, is missing the point. It puts you in the same cesspool as the rest of them.



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 08:23 PM
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Q.How can you have a creator...that has always been in existance?

or

How can you have creation without a creator?

or

How can you have everything in existance appear from nowhere and nothingness?


A. Pull it out of a black hat.



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 08:33 PM
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Sorry Shuyler I had the quote wrong and didn't notice but the response is still yours. Apologies.
edit on 16-10-2012 by randyvs because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 08:44 PM
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Originally posted by TheBlackHat
Q.How can you have a creator...that has always been in existance?

or
How can you have creation without a creator?
or
How can you have everything in existance appear from nowhere and nothingness?
A. Pull it out of a black hat.


You know there's actually a lot of depth there. You seem to get the point of this thread very well, but I would love to hear just say it.



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 08:59 PM
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reply to post by Pinke
 


I quite often find myself complimenting Atheists. And I can't find one thing wrong with anything you said. You yourself show an amazing ability to understand and interpret. I say that with full knowledge that it might sound like I'm kissing up. Just have to call em like I see em is all.
edit on 16-10-2012 by randyvs because: (no reason given)


Wabash



The fact that I disagree with the literal saga put forth in Genesis 1, in no way implies a conspiracy.


Certainly not by you as an individual. Speaking of which I haven't seen the slightest sign of those that do. Imagine that ?
edit on 16-10-2012 by randyvs because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 09:24 PM
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reply to post by randyvs
 


Well i have a theory...

The human mind and every idea in it...either has been created in reality already or will be made real in the future.
Every outlandish concept has either been dreamed up and made real or will be made real at some point..the great things and the horrific nightmares.
I think...the mind only envisages ideas and concept that are within its grasp.
So its my belief that everything you can think of..already exists at some point in time.
So im sure one day time travel will be a real thing..for example.
In this sense a human mind is much like the universe on a small scale. The mind is empty but full of possibilities and ideas just pop into existence within the mind. Scientists still puzzle over where inspirational ideas com from...it is, in fact a mystery.
Out of the dark void comes imagination and inspiration...much as the galaxies and stars popped into existence in the black universe....so perhaps the universe is one big mind...like our own...except with the power to create matter and form it, without the need to have to get a hammer and nails.

And how does something just pop into existence? that's the real question. Well once again..lets look at the black hat...the white rabbit...and the magicians wand and magic words.

Of course its all a trick. But its made to look like an impossible mind bending mystery. The magician knows the trick... the audience are baffled...the rabbit could care less.

Ill have my carrot now.....but...Ill also have my hat and wand back...and ill look on in amazement and applaud, while i take my bow.



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 09:41 PM
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From what I gather, Randy, you seem to be a proponent of a literal interpretation of Genesis.

However, I think this might be something you will find interesting. It is a very lengthy and heady read, but worth consideration by theists and atheists alike, imo:

New Atheism and five arguments for God

What we find here, is that ultimately science is merely a tool to help us shed light on the nature of our physical universe, and is not capable of solving the problem of whether or not our existence is the result of an act of creation by a supreme being (or at the very least, an act of creation by a previous source which may or may not still be active in our universe).

In fact, we can determine FROM science using reason, that the idea of everything from nothing violates not only scientific laws, but logic itself.

Hence the debate cannot be settled from a scientific perspective, because at present, atheists cannot logically prove their point (this being that the universe exploded into existence via the big bang out of nothing). While it can be argued the genesis account taken literally is incompatible with verifiable scientific data (and it is), we are still left with a philosophical question that will not, and cannot go away.

I hope you take the time to read portions of Dr.Craigs article. I myself am currently only half way through it, but I thought I'd share it here as it seems relevant to the debate.



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 11:12 PM
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Originally posted by schuyler
reply to post by schuyler
 
And puhlease, whomever, don't call me simplistic. Making fun of Christian fundamentalism, whether you are an atheist, and anti-theist, or an aytheist, is missing the point. It puts you in the same cesspool as the rest of them.


I didn't call you simplistic. I said your comment was over simplified. I still think it was.

This is what you said:


Originally posted by schuyler
They both are taking the story literally. Both the atheist and the fundamentalist are making the same mistake. Atheists, please welcome your fundamentalist brothers in crime. Turns out you both believe in a literal Bible.


This sounds to me like some kind of intellectual high ground over both Atheists and believers alike as if no Atheist has ever had the thought that there are people that don't believe the bible is literal. You might have been generalizing but you've said other things ...


I agree with them completely. It's all bunk, but.......


^ This after saying making fun of people puts you in the same cesspool as other people.


you would think these people had never heard of metaphor, allegory, or parables, did not like poetry, and were completely turned off by Shakespeare's sonnets. Have they ever studied folklore or mythology? Doubtful. Read the Dead Sea Scrolls? Not in your life.


And this ^

I know what those words mean. I'm not a poetry fan but I've read it. I've studied Shakespeare and mythology. I've read the dead sea scrolls. I don't believe everyone thinks or reads the bible as literal. I'm an Atheist, nice to meet you; we come from all walks of life same as religious folks.

If you're referring to specifically people that assume holy books are literal and don't educate themselves that's another thing. If you're implying the vast majority of Atheist or religious persons are incapable of understanding and reading about simple concepts such as metaphor ... You're either over simplifying or just plain wrong (and sitting in your own cesspool)?

Maybe I over explained things, but I'm not so good with words and I very often find people misunderstand what an Atheist is or instantly assume it's a union or something with a guild charter rather than just a position with many facets like a diamond.

Feel free to correct me if I've missed the point, because actually really don't get it!

And danke Randy! I can't imagine anyone kissing up to me anyone, I not important at all!

edit on 16-10-2012 by Pinke because: (no reason given)
edit on 16-10-2012 by Pinke because: Correct me!



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 11:18 PM
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reply to post by randyvs
 


I think...therefore I am. (Descartes) A true "Catch-22".



posted on Oct, 17 2012 @ 12:32 AM
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reply to post by DeadSeraph
 


Thank you Saraph. I will endeavor your link as I do all of them between threads. I'll see whatcha got and what I can make of it.



posted on Oct, 17 2012 @ 01:49 AM
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Even if you could prove the theory either way, and you have a name you give your higher power there is still one question that will never be answered satisfactorily for anyone.......who created our higher power? The proverbial what came first, the chicken or the egg? If the chicken came first, how did it make an egg by itself without another chicken? If the egg came first where did it come from? Thin air? Really it's a silly argument. What difference does it really make how we were created? The fact is we exist. We have a responsibility to treat each other with love and kindness and be the best souls we can be every day regardless of why we exist.


Sincerely,

Ascension211



posted on Oct, 17 2012 @ 07:06 AM
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Oh no another thread flogging the dead horse that is the Bible.

Granted we don't yet know for sure how the universe started but we do know that the Bible is incorrect.

Creationism is a myth that has been disproved, Darwinian Evolution is an observable fact. Rather than trying to find other people who also believe in genesis as some strange way to convert the lie into the truth I suggest you throw the Bible in the bin and read something that actually involved scientific procedure and intelligence.

Remember when one person believes a lie it is a delusion but when many people believe a lie it is a religion.



posted on Oct, 17 2012 @ 07:24 AM
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The world was created in seven days? No one seems to have a better model than Genesis? Theres more of a thread in why you think Genesis is the best explanation than the explanation provided by it. It reminds me of the seventh dayers I encounter in the park. Every time i give them a lucid idea or contradict their ideas they just go back to their models of life the creator etc its kind of circular and insular. Am I making sense?





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