So how do you explain existence ?, page 15

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by GafferUK1981

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And this isn't even close to true.
No, people of antiquity I believe were highly intelligent and didn't just believe what someone told them.

Our ancestors were certainly no dummies, but intelligence doesn't mean (unfortunately) that people wouldn't believe something because somebody just says so. The Greeks, very smart indeed, believed that the Gods live on Mt. Olympus, the Heaven's Gate sect believed a UFO will come and pick them up and they committed suicide, people believed in witchcraft and women were burnt alive at the stake. The Mormons believe that Jesus came to America because a convicted con-artist named Mr. Smith said he found some ancient gold tablets and God dictated him the translation. Now, about 50% of Americans think somebody who truly believes such nonsense would be a good fit to be President. So, no, unfortunately, intelligence is not proof for reasonable beliefs. "The individual is smart, the masses are dumb"

Everything thing they did took great knowledge and effort. So no, if they did something, like copy manuscripts of great importance ? Or believed something they felt should be immortalized by gigantic, symmetrically perfect, stone monuments ? I don't think they were to interested in lies or fairy tales.

Do the Pyramids then proof that the Egyptians were right to believe in the Sun god Ra? The temples of the Maya proof that God is a feathered snake? Will in a thousand years people believe in Superman, because the comic books were copied millions of times?

Neither impressive buildings nor the painstaking and costly copying of manuscripts proofs that the underlying belief system ist true...... It only proofs that it was of great importance to them.

reply to post by nv4711

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Thanks nv.

Let me at least try to help alleviate your feelings of irony.

The phrase was brought to prominence by Descartes, yet it seems the sentiment pre-dates him. I also doubt he owns the only possible further truth that could be derived from it.

Obviously such a philosophical statement can and has been used since in western philosophy in a way that is not necessarily even relevant to the subject of theism (in the purely psychological sense, for instance). From my experience, this would in fact be the more popular modern usage of it. In no way can it or does it infer a god (IMO) on it's own, or anything else, other than what it infers directly. Many would disagree even with this much.

So it would seem "non sequitur" to assume a following endorsement of the entirety of someone's work and philosophy based on this, if this is what you are inferring. I could change it, there are others from various philosophies that I like, one particular "truism" that I heard from a delusional and insane christian cult leader I find holds a great truth. It wouldn't logically follow that I endorse the entirety of resulting beliefs and philosophy of the one who proposed it.

Or are you just saying you find irony, without inferring this? If so, where is the irony? Perhaps the irony assumes I am ignorant of Descartes? If so, have fun.

I wonder if your "fellow atheist" observation is not also an "it does not logically follow" assumption (whether correct or otherwise). I certainly have never claimed to be an atheist. Dismissing one particular deity (the christian one proposed in the bible, in this instance) doesn't make anyone an atheist by default.

Also, just sayin'.....

reply to post by Cogito, Ergo Sum

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You're right, my inferences were probably unfounded, as they say...never assume anything.

As for cogito, ergo sum, I'll quote another philosopher: :-)

“Making itself intelligible is suicide for philosophy.”
― Martin Heidegger

Originally posted by nv4711

Originally posted by slugger9787
reply to post by randyvs

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CONSCIOUSNESS
EXPLAINS
EXISTENCE

No, it doesn't - unless you can show that animals and plants are also conscious of their existence.

I doubt that would even do it. It would only show that animals and plants were conscious of their existence, giving us more knowledge about animals and plants. Not necessarily explaining existence itself, possibly making it even more mysterious. Consciousness is one of the more mysterious aspects of it all IMO.

Though I can see the possibility that once we understand what consciousness really is, it could help our understanding of how it all came to be (doesn't have to though). Even if there were some universal underlying principle, I doubt it would be god. No more than say, gravity, would be considered god (just IMO).

reply to post by randyvs

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Okay, now I am trolling after you told me to "shut the f___ up" in a different thread, I thought I would check out what other intelligence you have to offer. Here I find your request for civility. Anyhow,

To your post: I am in complete agreement. Though I don't believe that genesis is a literal account of how we came into existence, I do believe their is a creator behind it all. Like you, I also, do not believe it is an alien presence. Beyond that, I have nothing intelligent to offer.

This time I will exit stage right! Salve!

Originally posted by DondeEsta?
reply to post by randyvs

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Okay, now I am trolling after you told me to "shut the f___ up" in a different thread, I thought I would check out what other intelligence you have to offer. Here I find your request for civility. Anyhow,

To your post: I am in complete agreement. Though I don't believe that genesis is a literal account of how we came into existence, I do believe their is a creator behind it all. Like you, I also, do not believe it is an alien presence. Beyond that, I have nothing intelligent to offer.

This time I will exit stage right! Salve!

Alright it is tough to take the account in Genesis literally I'll admit. Seeing how The Author even describes his word as being corrupted thru the ages.
BTW
Don't be to butt hurt, my post wasn't of any great importance that's for sure.

reply to post by randyvs

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Are we still yapping on about genesis, it wasn't even a good theory in the Middle Ages. It's not worth even describing it as theory these days, it is a fairy tale.

Evolution is a proven fact, where's the problem with accepting it? Oh yeah it helps prove there is no god.

reply to post by GafferUK1981

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Evolution is a proven fact, where's the problem with accepting it? Oh yeah it helps prove there is no god.

No doubt this will be your reality. To remain lost.

reply to post by randyvs

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How can I be lost? I know exactly where I am.

Would you rather I was like you? Weak and terrified of my own mortality.

reply to post by GafferUK1981

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Would you rather I was like you? Weak and terrified of my own mortality

If you knew the person you were communicating with, you wouldn't make such a misguided assumption.

The unknown is yours to fear not mine.

Now is there some sort of explanation for existence you can relay or are you just here to do some unruly spouting off ?

reply to post by randyvs

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Unknown? I know exactly what will happen when I die, I'll be dead and unaware of
it like before I was born, I won't exist any longer.

Existence? Well the only credible explanations are the Big Bang and evolution. No religious theories hold water. God does not exist.

reply to post by GafferUK1981

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Saying God doesn't exist is weak Atheism. Seeing that you can't possibly know such a thing. Unless you have full knowledge of the universe. Which would make you God posting on ATS denying your own existence.

So you're just being ridiculous pal. You should learn to embrace your fears.

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by GafferUK1981

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Saying God doesn't exist is weak Atheism. Seeing that you can't possibly know such a thing. Unless you have full knowledge of the universe. Which would make you God posting on ATS denying your own existence.

So you're just being ridiculous pal. You should learn to embrace your fears.

edit on 20-11-2012 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

Randy saying God does exist is weak minded since you cannot possibly know such a thing, unless you have full knowledge of the Universe. Which would make you God and feel it necessary to affirm your own existence on ATS.

So with that out of the way. Why not accept that you have a belief, a belief in which you place faith.
Others have differing beliefs, or none whatsoever, all with at least as much validity as your own.

Aspects of your faith have been shown to be, let's say, improbable and maybe it is time to reexamine those aspects.

Man is mortal, man is fallible and the book you revere is certainly sketchy on the details. Understanding that we "do not know" is hardly contra to your faith, after all what mortal could claim to know the mind of your (alleged) deity ?

Is it not claimed that he/she/it works in mysterious ways?

reply to post by Noncompatible

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Randy saying God does exist

Your point is as funny as it is moot and ignorant to the fact that nowhere in this thread have I made such a claim. I believe in Jesus Christ and I have faith in God. No way does that make any such claim. Care to try again my inexperienced member ?

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by Noncompatible

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Randy saying God does exist

Your point is as funny as it is moot and ignorant to the fact that nowhere in this thread have I made such a claim. I believe in Jesus Christ and I have faith in God. No way does that make any such claim. Care to try again my inexperienced member ?

edit on 20-11-2012 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

If this is seriously how you view your commentary and declarations, then there is in fact no point attempting rational discourse with you.
Incidentally, smugness is ugly and awfully hurtfu....oh wait no it isn't it's simply amusing.
Have fun.

P.S. Try to quote people in full context from now on though, that way you will at least give the appearance of wishing to engage in a discussion.

reply to post by Noncompatible

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You haven't presented anything to discuss but your lop sided view.

At least come at me with something that's true.

What a joke. If you wanted to discuss anything you would first admit you were wrong to put words in my mouth.
Oh and the rest of reply doesn't mean anything after what I did quote.

So you're just wrong.

reply to post by randyvs

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Here's how I explain it:

0^0 = 0!

(For those not following the above the solution is 1 = 1)

reply to post by randyvs

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What are these fears you claim that I have? must I live in fear to be an atheist.

I strongly believe it is you that lives in fear, fear that when you die you will merely stop existing, this is why religion was invented by man, a way to alleviate the fear of death.

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