Christianity would die without Islam.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by babloyi

 

If it is a problem of "What defines X religion?" then the book would indeed be the best and most accurate description, more so than any school or TV channel.

If the book was the most accurate description of Islam, and if preachers used the book as a reference...then you can bet that the anti-Islam preachers would be out of business.

I see a LOT of people attacking Islam on these forums.
Yet, NONE of them acknowledge that Islam sees the Jesus of the bible as the Islamic messiah.

Interesting isn't it?
Muslims accept an Israelite....a JEW as their messiah and yet, are constantly misunderstood as being opposed to Christianity.

The Jews however, are the ONLY people whos religious beliefs are incompatible with Jesus...they insult Jesus and his mother and yet, Christians support them over Muslims.

Is it "THE" Islamic messiah or "AN" Islamic Messiah, when refferring to Jesus
Who and what is the Mahdi we hear so much about, isnt that supposed to be the Islamic messiah

and why do Christians support Jews and not Muslims, well Jews dont hold knives to Christians throats and demand they deny Jesus as saviour.
Where do you stand on those actions Skorp?

www.jihadwatch.org...

www.compassdirect.org...


As for Christ's direct teachings, the Christ Muslims so readily accept, so you say. Is this part of Muslim teaching, part of the Muslim lifestyle?
Jesus says:
27 ¶ But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
—Luke 6:27–31 KJV

What, not part of Islam, not good enough for Muslims too accept, not a real Messiah, not one worth listening to?

Islam does not accept Jesus, He is redundant to them. His teachings are completely ignored.

reply to post by borntowatch

Yes Muslims accept Christ as a chosen one (Messiah).
All the ancient Hebrew Prophets were chosen ones as well, so were the Hebrew kings. In fact so was Cyrus the great, who killed many Hebrews. Christians see Jesus as the final Messiah, the last Adam.

Muslims accept Jesus as THE messiah.

This is another tactic which I've seen used by christians to discredit Jesus as the messiah in Islam. Making these imaginary distinction between 'A' messiah and 'THE' messiah doesn't work because in Islam ONLY Jesus has the title al-masih, which is the Arabic way of saying the messiah

Yes all prophets are "chosen" but they DON'T have the title of messiah, so "messiah" means more than just being "chosen" as you implied.

reply to post by borntowatch

Is it "THE" Islamic messiah or "AN" Islamic Messiah, when refferring to Jesus

Like I said in my previous post, only Jesus has the title of THE messiah. Nobody else.
Not even Mohammad.

Who and what is the Mahdi we hear so much about, isnt that supposed to be the Islamic messiah

The Mahdi is a figure who will appear in the future, but he isn't the messiah.
Many Christian fundamentalists teach the lie that the Mahdi is the messiah, either out of ignorance or because they willingly want to conceal the truth.

(contd)

and why do Christians support Jews and not Muslims, well Jews dont hold knives to Christians throats and demand they deny Jesus as saviour.

Christian support for Jews is a rather recent development, because you know that Christians were holding knives to jews throats a few centuries ago. Wonder what happened to love thy enemy.

The so called "jewish/Christian" alliance is at best, political in nature. It is worthless and superficial.

On a religious level, Jews and Christians are diametrically opposed to each other.
I doubt any christian would agree with Jewish religious beliefs.

Jews don't believe in the trinity (like muslims)
Jews don't believe in original sin (like muslims)
Jews don't believe that a man can die for the sins of others (like muslims)
Jews see Christianity as polytheistic (like muslims)
Basically Jewish religion is incompatible with Jesus Christ.
Islam however accepts Jesus as messiah.

I also find it interesting, that despite the tensions in the middle east.... Jews are technically allowed to pray in mosques if they cant find a synagogue... or eat Halal meat if they cant buy Kosher.

Where do you stand on those actions Skorp?
www.jihadwatch.org...
www.compassdirect.org...

You need to learn how to discern between spiritual matters and political matters.

How about I show you a news articles on recent wars started by Christian politicians. The deaths of muslims caused by these wars far exceeds what any terrorist could even hope to achieve.

Jesus says:
27 ¶ But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
—Luke 6:27–31 KJV

That only shows what a great person Jesus was.

However, I am yet to see a single christian love an enemy or turn the other cheek.
Its cute how christians point to these sayings and say "oh look, our guy is better than your guy... like as if being part of Team Jesus automatically makes you as virtuous as the man you claim to follow.

On ATS, Christians can't even get along with each other... calling each other "cult members" and accusing each other of heresy for slight differences in interpretations. Its quite pathetic really.

reply to post by borntowatch

Many Christians see the word Messiah referring only to Christ. Messiah is a generic term for, chosen one of God.

Never heard that one before.
I'd like other Christians to comment on this.
From what I know, Christians believe that "messiah" refers ONLY to Jesus.

reply to post by MamaJ


Islam actually believes Christians and Jews can get to heaven, but believe they are the one true religion. They believe it is more about a persons deeds.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by borntowatch

 

Many Christians see the word Messiah referring only to Christ. Messiah is a generic term for, chosen one of God.

Never heard that one before.
I'd like other Christians to comment on this.
From what I know, Christians believe that "messiah" refers ONLY to Jesus.

You can always research it for yourself, imagine that.
Messiah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MessiahThe word Masih literally means "The anointed one" and in Islam, Isa al-Masih is ... In Judaism, the Messiah is not considered to be God or a Son of God. .... ""He was chosen and hidden with God before the world was created, and will remain in

As for the rest of your comments, dont be offended by the fact I wont take your word for what you say. I have heard and read different things.
If the Mahdi is indeed chosen by your god as you say, I would expect him to be your messiah.
Muhammad was a messiah, but not the messiah.

Dont assume so much.

Originally posted by CJS4life
reply to post by MamaJ

 

Islam actually believes Christians and Jews can get to heaven, but believe they are the one true religion. They believe it is more about a persons deeds.

Islam actually believes that you get 72 odd virgins if you die in a terrorist action killing innocents

Whats your point

reply to post by borntowatch

If the Mahdi is indeed chosen by your god as you say, I would expect him to be your messiah.

You "expect" him to be the messiah,but the Koran itself declares Jesus to be the messiah.
The truth stands even if people deny it.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by borntowatch

 

If the Mahdi is indeed chosen by your god as you say, I would expect him to be your messiah.

You "expect" him to be the messiah,but the Koran itself declares Jesus to be the messiah.
The truth stands even if people deny it.

Evidence???
Muslims have many denominations who are at each others throats, not just Christian and Jewish throats. Heard of the Sunni, Shi'as or the Sufis Wahhabis, Salafis Muslims, Kharijis, Druzes Bahais and what not.
You seem happy to slam Christian denominations, fair enough to. What about all the muslim denominations???

Happy to say Christians are sinners, so am I. Christians are all despicable sinners. Whose arguing?

Did you not understand what Messiah meant, I accept John the Baptist as a messiah, King David, the Syrian King Cyrus, all messiahs.
I only accept Jesus as Saviour though. Thats a big difference to what you believe.
Messiahs are a dime a dozen, Jesus is the Son of God, the third part of the Trinity. A Diety in human form- in God the Father from the Holy Spirit.
Not some two bob messiah you claim Him to be.

reply to post by borntowatch

Did you not understand what Messiah meant, I accept John the Baptist as a messiah, King David, the Syrian King Cyrus, all messiahs.

This is the part which is debatable.
Messiah is a title which is exclusive to Jesus.
Do you have a biblical quote to support your claim that those people were all messiahs?
Your idea of them all being "messiahs" is unheard of and I'd like a a second opinion from other Christians.

reply to post by borntowatch

Originally posted by borntowatch
Evidence???
Muslims have many denominations who are at each others throats, not just Christian and Jewish throats. Heard of the Sunni, Shi'as or the Sufis Wahhabis, Salafis Muslims, Kharijis, Druzes Bahais and what not.

The different sects of Islam have no bearing on the fact that all muslims accept Jesus as the Messiah. Also, Bahais aren't muslims (they don't self-identify as muslims).

Originally posted by borntowatch
Did you not understand what Messiah meant, I accept John the Baptist as a messiah, King David, the Syrian King Cyrus, all messiahs.

I'm not sure you understand what "the Messiah" means. For example, despite whatever you may believe, John the Baptist specifically denies being the Messiah (John 1:20). It seems you are translating "Christ" as "Saviour" instead of "Messiah". I'm not sure you didn't know, but Christ means Messiah. "Christos" is "Annointed One" in greek. Odd that that is the title that stuck with him, rather than "Jesus Soter" which is what it would be instead.

It is true there were many "annointed ones" in the Old Testament. There was only one prophesied Messiah, however. Odd thing about "Saviour" though, is it isn't as exclusive as you think. The Old Testament had a number of them, such as Ehud, son of Gera, who was one of the Biblical Judges (and not "annointed" as a Messiah, nevermind THE Messiah).

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by borntowatch

 

Originally posted by borntowatch
Evidence???
Muslims have many denominations who are at each others throats, not just Christian and Jewish throats. Heard of the Sunni, Shi'as or the Sufis Wahhabis, Salafis Muslims, Kharijis, Druzes Bahais and what not.

The different sects of Islam have no bearing on the fact that all muslims accept Jesus as the Messiah. Also, Bahais aren't muslims (they don't self-identify as muslims).

Originally posted by borntowatch
Did you not understand what Messiah meant, I accept John the Baptist as a messiah, King David, the Syrian King Cyrus, all messiahs.

I'm not sure you understand what "the Messiah" means. For example, despite whatever you may believe, John the Baptist specifically denies being the Messiah (John 1:20). It seems you are translating "Christ" as "Saviour" instead of "Messiah". I'm not sure you didn't know, but Christ means Messiah. "Christos" is "Annointed One" in greek. Odd that that is the title that stuck with him, rather than "Jesus Soter" which is what it would be instead.

It is true there were many "annointed ones" in the Old Testament. There was only one prophesied Messiah, however. Odd thing about "Saviour" though, is it isn't as exclusive as you think. The Old Testament had a number of them, such as Ehud, son of Gera, who was one of the Biblical Judges (and not "annointed" as a Messiah, nevermind THE Messiah).

edit on 18-10-2012 by babloyi because: (no reason given)

edit on 18-10-2012 by babloyi because: (no reason given)

One prophesied Messiah many Messiahs
The statement was "A" Messiah as opposed to "THE" Messiah
Go learn to read text properly please.

Bahais comes from Islam, I dont care how they identify themselves. They are from Islam, simple. There is no conjecture read the any book and they are an offshoot of Islam.

I am aware that saviour is not exclusive.

All Christian denominations accept that Christ is Lord, I dont see your point re what Islam say or how they identify Christ. Whats your point? My point is that Islam are as disconnected as Christendom. Something Skorp seems to want to deny....simple.

Its not about saviour messiah or words, it falls back to the Trinity connection that I identified.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by borntowatch

 

Did you not understand what Messiah meant, I accept John the Baptist as a messiah, King David, the Syrian King Cyrus, all messiahs.

This is the part which is debatable.
Messiah is a title which is exclusive to Jesus.
Do you have a biblical quote to support your claim that those people were all messiahs?
Your idea of them all being "messiahs" is unheard of and I'd like a a second opinion from other Christians.

You can research this yourself you know???
christianity.stackexchange.com...

The word for Messiah in Hebrew is Mashiach, and means anointed. This word occurs in the Old Testament a total of 39 times, according to "The New Strong's Expanded Dictionary of the Words in the Hebrew Bible."
Since it means "anointed," the word Mashiach is not always used in Hebrew the same way as the word Messiah is used in English. It most often refers to a consecrated person such as a king or priest. In the book of Isaiah, God calls King Cyrus of Persia "My Mashiach." In this instance, it means to convey that God chose King Cyrus for a special purpose; his actions are sanctified by God. King Cyrus is the one who ordered that the Temple of Jerusalem be rebuilt, and that the exiles be sent back home.
English translations of the Bible vary as to how many times they use the word "Messiah." Some translations will choose to translate the word Mashiach as "anointed" in some places, and as "Messiah" in others. One must go by context to understand how the word was most likely meant to function in the original passage.


Read more: wiki.answers.com...


Here the english translation is explained in light of the hebrew word. They are not the same, your assumption is wrong Its an easy mistake to make, one I was unaware of till recently. The language translations are not simple.

reply to post by borntowatch

Originally posted by borntowatch
One prophesied Messiah many Messiahs
The statement was "A" Messiah as opposed to "THE" Messiah
Go learn to read text properly please.

Which statement was "A" Messiah? John 1:20 most definitely is uses the term Messiah. While it is true, there were some labelled as "annointed" or messiahs in the Old Testament, every person connected to God isn't a Messiah. A Messiah is a leader or King.
John the Baptist didn't reply "No, I'm not THE Messiah, I'm A Messiah." He said "I am not the Messiah". I'm pretty sure everyone involved understood what he was talking about, because he was then asked "Are you Elijah?" (which in your mind I guess you'd also think was a Messiah?) and then asked "Are you that prophet?" (again, if we were following your logic, "that prophet" would be a Messiah too). John the Baptist may have been a prophet (not that Prophet, though, whoever that may be), but he wasn't A or THE Messiah (and obviously, he wasn't Elijah).

Originally posted by borntowatch
Bahais comes from Islam, I dont care how they identify themselves. They are from Islam, simple. There is no conjecture read the any book and they are an offshoot of Islam.

Hahahahaha...then in the same way, Islam is an offshoot of Christianity and Judaism.

You say it isn't about words and semantics, but it is you who started the whole "A" vs "The" and "Messiah" vs "Saviour" thing. The fact of the matter is, undeniably, muslims accept Jesus as THE Messiah, not A Messiah. While the term Messiah, as meaning "Anointed" was used for several people in Judaism, there was ONE prophesied Messiah. So in Christianity, when people talk about the Messiah, they aren't talking about Cyrus or anyone- The Catholics, for example, don't consider their popes Messiahs. Likewise, the only theological connection to "Messiah" in Islam is Jesus. There are no other Messiahs in Islam. The Mahdi is not a Messiah, Muhammad is not a Messiah. Nobody else was. While originally the word may have been for a leader chosen by God, in Islam, the word is used EXCLUSIVELY for Jesus.

reply to post by babloyi

John the Baptist specifically denies being the Messiah (John 1:20). It seems you are translating "Christ" as "Saviour" instead of "Messiah".

You are taking bible verses out of context.
John the Baptist is a messiah because he was "chosen".

So stop spreading your evil lies here....and accept that John the baptist was a messiah. Not THE messiah but A messiah.

Theres a big difference.

Originally posted by babloyi

Hahahahaha...then in the same way, Islam is an offshoot of Christianity and Judaism.

You say it isn't about words and semantics, but it is you who started the whole "A" vs "The" and "Messiah" vs "Saviour" thing. The fact of the matter is, undeniably, muslims accept Jesus as THE Messiah, not A Messiah. While the term Messiah, as meaning "Anointed" was used for several people in Judaism, there was ONE prophesied Messiah. So in Christianity, when people talk about the Messiah, they aren't talking about Cyrus or anyone- The Catholics, for example, don't consider their popes Messiahs. Likewise, the only theological connection to "Messiah" in Islam is Jesus. There are no other Messiahs in Islam. The Mahdi is not a Messiah, Muhammad is not a Messiah. Nobody else was. While originally the word may have been for a leader chosen by God, in Islam, the word is used EXCLUSIVELY for Jesus.

edit on 18-10-2012 by babloyi because: (no reason given)

edit on 18-10-2012 by babloyi because: (no reason given)

Islam is an offshoot of the Abrahamic covenant, obviously. I dont think any anyone would deny that. Not related to Christianity other than accepting Christ as a Messiah, they dont accept Christ as part of the Godhead.

The Bahai is not an argument of words and semantics, its about origins. Skorp was suggesting Christianity is diverse, I was pointing out so is Islam.
I was hoping Skorp would deny some of the Muslim sects so I could say Christians deny many pseudo Christian sects as well.

I have linked explanations of the root of the word Messiah, ignore them at your will but dont pretend they have a different meaning, now as to back when they were written. Context
Messiah means more than what you understand it to mean..

Originally posted by borntowatch
I am a Christian and dont know any Muslims, I am alive.

Also Christianity grew long before Islam came along, Christians didnt need it then.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Should both Christianity and Islam revert and follow their religious root, Judaism, and recognize that their man created versions of their Gods are evil and reject them as unfit to rule any peaceful loving egalitarian nation?

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL

and just quietly can you point me in the direction of this peaceful loving egalitarian nation you speak of, I am going there.
Unicorns and fairys I am sure.

edit on 17-10-2012 by borntowatch because: (no reason given)

Where there is the least amount of religions.

What does that tell you of religion and the religious?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by borntowatch

 

Is it "THE" Islamic messiah or "AN" Islamic Messiah, when refferring to Jesus

Like I said in my previous post, only Jesus has the title of THE messiah. Nobody else.
Not even Mohammad.

Who and what is the Mahdi we hear so much about, isnt that supposed to be the Islamic messiah

The Mahdi is a figure who will appear in the future, but he isn't the messiah.
Many Christian fundamentalists teach the lie that the Mahdi is the messiah, either out of ignorance or because they willingly want to conceal the truth.

edit on 17-10-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

Yet Jesus was not the first messiah.

www.youtube.com...

And the messiah was to live and lead his people.

Regards
DL

To all.

What I find interesting and somewhat puzzling is why we need a messiah or savior in the first place.

This belief assumes that we need saving from some supernatural force that has condemned us in the first place.

Would a supernatural force be stupid enough to condemn us just to have to die for us?

I do not think any God would be that stupid. He would be saving us from himself.
To me, this is ridiculous.

Regards
DL