Why Mind/Body dualism?

All of these concepts become missused and misunderstood over time. The mind (brain) and the body are all physical aspects of existence. You, however, are much more than mind and body, more subtle but all encompassing.

Dualism wasn't supposed to mean battle, or opposing sides battling for ground. It is suppose to infer the fact that everything implies its opposite. Dualism doesn't mean Good vs. Bad, or Light vs. Dark as it is commonly used. Dualism means This infers that. It's use in wisdom is to remind us that you can not have one without the other.

There is a famous saying that almost everyone fails to grasp the significance of: Mind over Matter. Mainstream "science" today fails to consider the foundation of all existence: Mind. That's why it is a dead-end street for earth-bound materialists.

Originally posted by MeritocracyNow
There is a famous saying that almost everyone fails to grasp the significance of: Mind over Matter. Mainstream "science" today fails to consider the foundation of all existence: Mind. That's why it is a dead-end street for earth-bound materialists.

That saying is quite old, I think the word "mind" was being used to infer consciousness as opposed to the thinking-mind.

These are my thoughts on the question: Through our senses we receive information. The brain processes this information consciously or unconsciously regarding of how our body uses it. Consciousness is a product of this process, it integrates this information and returns a signal, which we interpret as "I am." In addition, we are able to store information, which gives us the sense of awareness in time - I was, I am, and eventually I may be around for a while.

Human consciousness is able to integrate and organize information in extremely complex pattern, and here my questions begin. What happens to this information when the matter of the brain disintegrates? Some physicists and computer scientists today argue that information exists independent of matter and even that physical world is made of information itself. But can it remain organized in such complex patterns after death? Can it remain organized in a way that it would be able to evolve? Can a complex cluster of organized information integrate more information? Can it observe itself? If it can observe itself then it's conscious, isn't it? Crazy ideas, but we've seen crazy. If the answers to these questions is yes - then yes, I am open to accept dualism as a result of evolution. If the answers are no, than, well - no or different. The Holographic Universe theory may be another exotic answer.

Seems, after all, my answer is - I don't know. But I assume that it may be possible and actually, would be very cool.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by TheSubversiveOne

 

Why do you think the mind is somehow separate from the body?

You don't want to hear scripture or philosophy, and yet you want an answer. That's like telling someone, "Describe to a blind man the color red without using words."

Derp!

Anyway, the mind consists of energy that is not physically bound. The body consists of energy that is physically bound. It's the difference between lightning and a battery.

What you're saying is you are incapable of coming up with your own answer. You are also saying you believe something because you are told it. Derp indeed.

All you needed to say was that "I have been taught to believe..." or "I prefer so-and-so's interpretation over my own..." etc.

If you can think for yourself, give it a shot , and let me know what, if anything, you come up with.

Originally posted by Visitor2012

Originally posted by MeritocracyNow
There is a famous saying that almost everyone fails to grasp the significance of: Mind over Matter. Mainstream "science" today fails to consider the foundation of all existence: Mind. That's why it is a dead-end street for earth-bound materialists.

That saying is quite old, I think the word "mind" was being used to infer consciousness as opposed to the thinking-mind.

edit on 15-10-2012 by Visitor2012 because: (no reason given)

I agree with you. Look into Involution versus Evolution. It would explain the difference between the first two chapters of Genesis, not to mention just about everything in the Bible....

Originally posted by ImaFungi

but there is an obvious distinction,,, the human is made up of trillions of different parts, grouping to execute complex tasks to make the human possible.... the mind is certainly distinct from the the fingers,,, which are both distinct from an atom of a fingernail.,,..,

In order for it to be obvious, you must know where the mind ends. If the mind knows it has fingers and can feel with them, the mind must flow through them and be a part of them.

Imagine a man born without a single sense—no sight, hearing, touch, taste, smell—not a single experience to remember. If you can, describe to me his mind and thoughts.

Originally posted by MeritocracyNow
There is a famous saying that almost everyone fails to grasp the significance of: Mind over Matter. Mainstream "science" today fails to consider the foundation of all existence: Mind. That's why it is a dead-end street for earth-bound materialists.

How is "Mind" the foundation of all existence? I cannot infer to that conclusion at all.

Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne


Imagine a man born without a single sense—no sight, hearing, touch, taste, smell—not a single experience to remember. If you can, describe to me his mind and thoughts.

well they would be born a baby,,, and they would still be chock full of chemicals and biological urges,,, which would force some reaction of movement,,, it would probably be similar thoughts to if an amoeba had thoughts,, "my stomach region hurts,, im hungry,, im hungry,,,,im full" " my stomach region hurts,,, time for bathroom",," my groin region feels funny,, time to rub it against something",,,,

what i think it comes down to ,,, with the scenario you provided,,, is input and output,,,, if there is no information added to the system of "mind",,, does the mind even exist? can it work?

reply to post by TheSubversiveOne


Something that came to me after thinking more about my last reply and what you said,,.

the mind and what it does is in a way separate from the physical activity,,because it possesses a quality of information,,,, quantizing and qualifying bits of information,,,, as opposed to physical forces and actions and activities colliding,,,, actions and reactions,,, the mind is an interpreter of data,.,.,. the mind is akin to the laws of physics,,, where as nature is the physics,,,, this is what i was getting at with hardware and software,,,, the code and what the code "does",.,., the law of physics,, the math is hidden and unseen,,,, just like the computer of mind,,,, my essence or being that i have created in my lifetime perhaps does not even exist tangibly,, there is a physical body of me,, like an ant has a body or a tree.,.,.,. but what i have experienced as the entity i am,,.,. is beyond the raw image of my body on an earthly body,,, if we did not think about anything,, or speak about anything,, besides the raw essentials,,, we would pretty much be like all other animals.,,.,. but we have externalized our imagination and mind,, and that has allowed us to alter ourselves and our environment,, to great magnitudes in extent...

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by TheSubversiveOne

 

Something that came to me after thinking more about my last reply and what you said,,.

the mind and what it does is in a way separate from the physical activity,,because it possesses a quality of information,,,, quantizing and qualifying bits of information,,,, as opposed to physical forces and actions and activities colliding,,,, actions and reactions,,, the mind is an interpreter of data,.,.,. the mind is akin to the laws of physics,,, where as nature is the physics,,,, this is what i was getting at with hardware and software,,,, the code and what the code "does",.,., the law of physics,, the math is hidden and unseen,,,, just like the computer of mind,,,, my essence or being that i have created in my lifetime perhaps does not even exist tangibly,, there is a physical body of me,, like an ant has a body or a tree.,.,.,. but what i have experienced as the entity i am,,.,. is beyond the raw image of my body on an earthly body,,, if we did not think about anything,, or speak about anything,, besides the raw essentials,,, we would pretty much be like all other animals.,,.,. but we have externalized our imagination and mind,, and that has allowed us to alter ourselves and our environment,, to great magnitudes in extent...

Good words. I agree.

Although in order for the mind to acquire the data, it must first sense it. This is the difficulty I'm having. If the mind had no data input, and thus not able to process data, would it still be what we consider a mind? In other words, if the mind had no external input, i.e. sensual experiences, what could it remember? Certainly nothing. So I must conclude that the body and mind are indeed abstractions of one thing.

Originally posted by trysts
reply to post by crankyoldman

 

From my readings, I don't think "self-awareness" is the "definition of consciousness". I think it's just awareness. For example, David Hume called the mind a series of impressions and ideas, without allowing for a "self". Husserl referred to consciousness as "intentionality", while trying to locate a (self).
I believe the vagueness of "consciousness" allows for the many questions concerning other Beings, and things, having consciousness

"from my readings" is an slight issue here, things should not be determined by what "others" say but what you observe. Others say i should be on facebook, it is my experience this is the last place I should be. Sadly, too many people live life through what others speculate about but don't have any experience with, this forum is the pillar of that notion, who cares what Husseri thinks? What do you know based on your experience. You didn't add what your experience is, only the notions of someone you don't know (I presume) and that is the main issue in our current experience, we're taught to avoid having our own experiences to draw our own conclusions and most often, people can only quote others. Determine for yourself....

reply to post by crankyoldman


Earlier I said I lean towards the mind/body problem in philosophy being a problem of language, since there is hardly a "problem" for me in my experiences. I simply site the fact that the "self" is not an assumed concept connected to consciousness, and therefore cannot be already contained in the definition of consciousness

(Oh, and I care what Edmund Husserl wrote about. He was quite brilliant in my view)

Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne

Originally posted by MeritocracyNow
There is a famous saying that almost everyone fails to grasp the significance of: Mind over Matter. Mainstream "science" today fails to consider the foundation of all existence: Mind. That's why it is a dead-end street for earth-bound materialists.

How is "Mind" the foundation of all existence? I cannot infer to that conclusion at all.

Before anything can become a reality in the physical world it first has to be a thought in the mind of someone with the ability to create.

reply to post by TheSubversiveOne


Ok,,, well now im a little lost as to what you want to discuss,,, but i think it is directed towards people who think that there is anything else to the face value, physical reality,,. and to people who think there are absolute "me" and "you" which are immortal and beyond this earth and flesh and time and space.,.,. where as you believe everything is exactly as it seems.,,.,. 2 humans meet,, have a child,,, starting from cells that childs body is built ( including its brain) out of organic edible, nutrient rich materials,.,.. because of a long line of evolution,, this child as it grows yearly has the ability to use its brain to "download" extreme amounts of data and information,, compile it,, process it,, judge it,,and use its comprehension of this data,, itself,, and its surrounding,,, to utilize its own personality,, behavior,, views,,, desires,, and abilities,.,. after 80 or so more spins around the sun,,, this child and its data and personality,, and nutrients,, and memories,, are entropized,, and broken down back into the simpler forms they were built up from,,,

Originally posted by MeritocracyNow

Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne

Originally posted by MeritocracyNow
There is a famous saying that almost everyone fails to grasp the significance of: Mind over Matter. Mainstream "science" today fails to consider the foundation of all existence: Mind. That's why it is a dead-end street for earth-bound materialists.

How is "Mind" the foundation of all existence? I cannot infer to that conclusion at all.

Before anything can become a reality in the physical world it first has to be a thought in the mind of someone with the ability to create.

before a mind can have a thought to create,,, the mind must be created in the physical world,.,.. this is chicken or the egg kind of stuff.,.. is it possible the answer is both at the same time? is it possible this is the duality,,, the yin yang,,, one needs the other.,.,., cause and effect,,, there are results for every action..,.,

Originally posted by ImaFungi
the mind must be created in the physical world

Well that creates lots of questions doesn't it.....

Who creates it?

How can you show that Mind is part of the physical world?

How do you know that Mind exists within the time-space continuum?

If William F. Lamb conceived the Empire State Building in his mind, how did his idea and the actual building happen at the same time?

Originally posted by MeritocracyNow

Originally posted by ImaFungi
the mind must be created in the physical world

Well that creates lots of questions doesn't it.....

Who creates it?

How can you show that Mind is part of the physical world?

How do you know that Mind exists within the time-space continuum?

If William F. Lamb conceived the Empire State Building in his mind, how did his idea and the actual building happen at the same time?

who creates it? Father time and mother nature....

How can i show the mind is a part of the physical world? I can hit you on the head and it would hurt,,, you would feel it because you are physical and your mind is what translates your senses.....

how do i know the mind exists within the time-space continuum? because it takes time for you to think... because a couple of revolutions around the sun ago,, you were thinking about different things then you are at this moment,,, these thoughts were separated by whats known as time,,, also your mind exists in space,, unless you have never moved in your life,, which is not only impossible macroly physically,, but in order for your mind to exist brain waves and neurons must move and take up space...

If William F. Lamb conceived the Empire State Building in his mind, how did his idea and the actual building happen at the same time? the building and the conceiving didnt happen at the same time,,,you are reffereing to my past statement where i was thinking,, maybe instead of the universe being created by an uncreated mind,,, maybe the informational ( mind) aspect of the universe was born at the same time the physical universe was born.... even though in humans,,, we see the base physicalness born and it takes some time for the mind to come about,, to properly drive the physical body,, and interpret itself and its surroundings.,.,.

so if we view william lambs case.,..,. we was conceived,, a few cells, dna,, nutrients,,, built up for 9 months,,, born,,, a new physical specimen,, maybe in one year or less its mind begins developing,,, many years later it works out the proper way to construct the empire state building,, then it is built,.,,..,

its like the mind, is a microscopic model of the universe,,, because the most it can do physically,,, is use the laws of physics to create an acceptable creation in the universe,,,acceptable meaning obeys the laws of physics..,,.,. the universes mind would be the laws of physics,, including the notion of time,, which will allow all sorts of different combinations of size, and distance, and composition of stars and planets to exist,,, with all different kinds of world creations from how that planets compositions react with its stars outpouring of radiation,, each star and world is like a section of the mind computing situations throughout much much time,,, coming to dead ends and conclusions and breakthroughs quintillion times a pico second ( throughout the universe).. it doesnt need to think and try like our mind,,, because the universe is the grand forethought,,, and the acting out of the universe throughout its time,, is the answer and question dealing with it self each moment,,, Like the way the human mind works,,, nature also operates with countless feedback loops,,,

If I take a set of mirrors and face them equally, you get infinitude, however, if I take one of those reflections and place a barrier to it, you get a sense of "mind" that cycles, and the remainder is what is left of eternity.

The question is thus: Are you bigger than your mind?