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Why Mind/Body dualism?

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posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 08:41 PM
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Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne

Originally posted by crankyoldman

Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne

Originally posted by The GUT
Because consciousness cannot be weighed and has no mass. Neither can science explain consciousness--materialistically or otherwise. It's what makes us what we are and enables us to do all we can do.

It suggests that we are but a model of some greater consciousness that transcends time and 3D space.

It seems entirely plausible that, at least a "part" of me, is not connected to the "material" world.


edit on 14-10-2012 by The GUT because: (no reason given)


There's no reason to believe there is such a thing as 'consciousness.' It's a word used to describe the state of appearing awake and conscious, nothing more. A body can be awake and conscious.


That is to the observer. You "appear" awake to me, but looking at the you beyond the body I'd question it a bit. Self awareness is the definition of consciousness, which requires a full and complete assimilation of all the information gleaned from the reality you create. The problem for most is they assume the reality exists beyond them, outside of them, and they play in it, this is wrong, it is projected by them, and and they play in it. The measurement by machine is, at this level, impossible as the machine cannot assimilate beyond the 5 sense limitation. I have demonstrated to countless people they projection they are creating, it isn't hard to demonstrate, but only to those who have the ability to perceive, so are not there yet and, as such, cannot grasp the projection they are creating.

There is consciousness, different levels depending on your level of self awareness. If you are at the point at which you cannot perceive any consciousness in anything at all, you just aren't all that self aware. No harm, just not there yet, but to assume it does not exist because you cannot perceive it is kind of funny, like saying the noise irritating the dog does not exist because you cannot hear it.


I understand the definition of consciousness, both new age and traditional. Everyone is aware of themselves—that is a given, but how does that lead them to possess something called 'consciousness?' When one becomes conscious or aware of himself and his environment, he is regaining the use of his senses and sagacity, not a thing, a substance or any mystical aether called 'consciousness.' The word doesn't work, nor does it belong.



I think it is because,,, the world or realm of imagination or mind,,, is a different experience then external reality..,.

when you are conscious and aware of your surroundings you are viewing your surroundings via your mind.... at the same time you can think of things,, from a memory,, to math,, to a pet,,, and you can visualize these things in your mind,, you can close your eyes and imagine and think of anything,,, from complex math problems,, to music,, to how to construct a bridge,,,, when you dream,, the same consciousness that is aware of external reality during that waking state,, is only aware of the internal trappings and centers of consciousness,,,

I think all things "spiritual",, were an ancient interpretation of the power of thought, imagination, and mind....,
it is the software to the hardware,.,.. think of your entire life experience,,, the memories youve had and the ways they have made you feel,, the way you view certain things, the way you think of certain things,, the way you like certain things the way you love certain things,,,, these have all taken place in some electric flashes in grey matter in your head,, and you have been present and behind all of it,,, but how can that be summarized or measured,,, ( maybe someday science can interpret individual memories in a mind),,, but thats a whole lot of experience ( even in the average day),, to be summarized and equal to some microscopic sparking mush....
its like the brain is access to infinity,, while the body and material world are very limited,,, the mind is limited as the body in its ways,,, but it breaks barriers,, solves problems,, expands possibilities,, and has been the driving force to everything a body has ever done,,..,.,

take mankind for example.,.,., a bunch of wild animals,,, struggling in this vicious earthly nature for who knows how long,,, and by using our minds,,, look at the climb we have made,,, look at what we can think,, believe,, know,,, feel,.,., the control we can have,.,.,.

i think this relates to garden of eden story of,,, knowledge of good and evil,,,, animals eating the fruit of knowledge ,, becoming knowledgeable like the gods,,, and this was mans fall into misery,,, for the natural world was ignorant is bliss,,, you appear,,, you know nothing,, except eat when hungry,, dont become eaten,, sleep when tired,,, but now our minds have taken matters into their own hands,,,




posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 08:42 PM
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Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne
reply to post by gwynnhwyfar
 


Very interesting. Thank you for sharing.

But I must say, during that process, your body was supporting your mind the whole time, meaning you were still your body. This is the difficulty I'm having with this problem.


LOL - I'm not sure how much support my body was providing my mind at that time, since it was fully engaged in delivering a baby.


I think I know what you mean, though. My body was clearly present and functioning as expected. Have you ever read the "Life After Life" book? I think the author is named Raymond Moody. Anyway, he researched and collected a lot of stories of people who were pronounced clinically dead, sometimes for long periods of time, and who eventually revived and relayed their tales. Some of them were able to describe things they could not possibly have seen, such as a pair of shoes that had been tossed up on the roof of the hospital, or even what a room looked like in a different country, and the descriptions turned out to be verified as accurate.

Also, what do you think of the "phantom limbs" of soldiers who have lost an arm or a leg, but still "feel" the limb?



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 08:44 PM
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How does someone know that mind and body are separate? You see, that you cannot cure a mental illness with physical medicine. This logically shows that only the mind can cure it self, it is separate from the body. There is no harder truth than that.



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 08:46 PM
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Also, if you are looking for evidence of mind with no body present at all, alive or clinically dead, what about Electronic Voice Phenomenon (EVP's) and disembodied voices? Do these provide any useful evidence or food for thought?



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 09:09 PM
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reply to post by TheSubversiveOne
 


also what i was trying to get at,.,..,.,. does anything the mind do internally,, matter? or is it objective at all? or of consequence? ( obviously it can be of consequence if internal suggestions are taken into external physical action).,.,.

but is it that,,, the human mind is completely subjective,,, it can at times try and be objective,,, and succeed,,, but by nature,,, by the nature of being an individual entity against all other atoms in the universe,,,trapped in ones own conscious realm attached to ones body,,, with only a few external, naturally given goals..... is it that everything the mind thinks and does completely silly,, and phony,,, all of our entertainment,, and games,, and humor,,, is it all meaningless? or is everything meaningless so it doesn't matter anyway?



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 10:30 PM
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Originally posted by The GUT

Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne
You know I didn't say that. Twisting what I say? Where have I seen that before.

I'm sorry, please explain to us which branch of science has explained "Consciousness."

Especially how it sprang forth from, allegedly, inert matter. Feel free to just hit the bullet points in your explanation.


None. I'm sorry did I mention that somewhere? There's nothing there to explain is what I'm saying. Excuse me if I wasn't clear.



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 10:36 PM
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Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne

Originally posted by crankyoldman

Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne

Originally posted by The GUT
Because consciousness cannot be weighed and has no mass. Neither can science explain consciousness--materialistically or otherwise. It's what makes us what we are and enables us to do all we can do.

It suggests that we are but a model of some greater consciousness that transcends time and 3D space.

It seems entirely plausible that, at least a "part" of me, is not connected to the "material" world.


edit on 14-10-2012 by The GUT because: (no reason given)


There's no reason to believe there is such a thing as 'consciousness.' It's a word used to describe the state of appearing awake and conscious, nothing more. A body can be awake and conscious.


That is to the observer. You "appear" awake to me, but looking at the you beyond the body I'd question it a bit. Self awareness is the definition of consciousness, which requires a full and complete assimilation of all the information gleaned from the reality you create. The problem for most is they assume the reality exists beyond them, outside of them, and they play in it, this is wrong, it is projected by them, and and they play in it. The measurement by machine is, at this level, impossible as the machine cannot assimilate beyond the 5 sense limitation. I have demonstrated to countless people they projection they are creating, it isn't hard to demonstrate, but only to those who have the ability to perceive, so are not there yet and, as such, cannot grasp the projection they are creating.

There is consciousness, different levels depending on your level of self awareness. If you are at the point at which you cannot perceive any consciousness in anything at all, you just aren't all that self aware. No harm, just not there yet, but to assume it does not exist because you cannot perceive it is kind of funny, like saying the noise irritating the dog does not exist because you cannot hear it.


I understand the definition of consciousness, both new age and traditional. Everyone is aware of themselves—that is a given, but how does that lead them to possess something called 'consciousness?' When one becomes conscious or aware of himself and his environment, he is regaining the use of his senses and sagacity, not a thing, a substance or any mystical aether called 'consciousness.' The word doesn't work, nor does it belong.



I think it is because,,, the world or realm of imagination or mind,,, is a different experience then external reality..,.

when you are conscious and aware of your surroundings you are viewing your surroundings via your mind.... at the same time you can think of things,, from a memory,, to math,, to a pet,,, and you can visualize these things in your mind,, you can close your eyes and imagine and think of anything,,, from complex math problems,, to music,, to how to construct a bridge,,,, when you dream,, the same consciousness that is aware of external reality during that waking state,, is only aware of the internal trappings and centers of consciousness,,,

I think all things "spiritual",, were an ancient interpretation of the power of thought, imagination, and mind....,
it is the software to the hardware,.,.. think of your entire life experience,,, the memories youve had and the ways they have made you feel,, the way you view certain things, the way you think of certain things,, the way you like certain things the way you love certain things,,,, these have all taken place in some electric flashes in grey matter in your head,, and you have been present and behind all of it,,, but how can that be summarized or measured,,, ( maybe someday science can interpret individual memories in a mind),,, but thats a whole lot of experience ( even in the average day),, to be summarized and equal to some microscopic sparking mush....
its like the brain is access to infinity,, while the body and material world are very limited,,, the mind is limited as the body in its ways,,, but it breaks barriers,, solves problems,, expands possibilities,, and has been the driving force to everything a body has ever done,,..,.,


I like your interpretation. Except I think you're still unnecessarily abstracting a human into body and mind. How can the mind break barriers without the body to break those barriers? In order to articulate, express, hear, understand, study, grasp or conceptualize, a mind needs the body. They are not separate. Can a man invent a wheel without a body? Can a man learn or experiment without a body?



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 10:40 PM
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Originally posted by gwynnhwyfar

Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne
reply to post by gwynnhwyfar
 


Very interesting. Thank you for sharing.

But I must say, during that process, your body was supporting your mind the whole time, meaning you were still your body. This is the difficulty I'm having with this problem.


LOL - I'm not sure how much support my body was providing my mind at that time, since it was fully engaged in delivering a baby.


I think I know what you mean, though. My body was clearly present and functioning as expected. Have you ever read the "Life After Life" book? I think the author is named Raymond Moody. Anyway, he researched and collected a lot of stories of people who were pronounced clinically dead, sometimes for long periods of time, and who eventually revived and relayed their tales. Some of them were able to describe things they could not possibly have seen, such as a pair of shoes that had been tossed up on the roof of the hospital, or even what a room looked like in a different country, and the descriptions turned out to be verified as accurate.

Also, what do you think of the "phantom limbs" of soldiers who have lost an arm or a leg, but still "feel" the limb?


Phantom Limbs are interesting. We do remember things, emotions, feelings, sensations and experiences. But there's no reason to believe that the sensation is coming from a ghost-like version of a past limb.



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 10:46 PM
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Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne

Originally posted by gwynnhwyfar

Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne
reply to post by gwynnhwyfar
 


Very interesting. Thank you for sharing.

But I must say, during that process, your body was supporting your mind the whole time, meaning you were still your body. This is the difficulty I'm having with this problem.


LOL - I'm not sure how much support my body was providing my mind at that time, since it was fully engaged in delivering a baby.


I think I know what you mean, though. My body was clearly present and functioning as expected. Have you ever read the "Life After Life" book? I think the author is named Raymond Moody. Anyway, he researched and collected a lot of stories of people who were pronounced clinically dead, sometimes for long periods of time, and who eventually revived and relayed their tales. Some of them were able to describe things they could not possibly have seen, such as a pair of shoes that had been tossed up on the roof of the hospital, or even what a room looked like in a different country, and the descriptions turned out to be verified as accurate.

Also, what do you think of the "phantom limbs" of soldiers who have lost an arm or a leg, but still "feel" the limb?


Phantom Limbs are interesting. We do remember things, emotions, feelings, sensations and experiences. But there's no reason to believe that the sensation is coming from a ghost-like version of a past limb.

So, in your opinion, is the sensation coming from "mind" or "body"?



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 10:47 PM
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Originally posted by SparkOfSparks6
How does someone know that mind and body are separate? You see, that you cannot cure a mental illness with physical medicine. This logically shows that only the mind can cure it self, it is separate from the body. There is no harder truth than that.


Good thoughts.

The eye can also cure itself, but it cannot see when it's pulled from the body. A hand cannot grasp if it's severed from the body. A mind cannot be separate or it suffers the same fate.



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 10:49 PM
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Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne


I like your interpretation. Except I think you're still unnecessarily abstracting a human into body and mind. How can the mind break barriers without the body to break those barriers? In order to articulate, express, hear, understand, study, grasp or conceptualize, a mind needs the body. They are not separate. Can a man invent a wheel without a body? Can a man learn or experiment without a body?


ok you are right you are right,..,,.,.

but a fish and a rabbit have minds,,, cavemen had minds,,,.,.,. what separates us from cavemen?

I know it is a package and one couldn't be without the other,,,, but i do think there is a distinction,,, you also cant say which one is more important or valuable,,, because like i said,, you cant separate them,,,.,. its like asking whats the most important part of a car? the engine of course!! whats a car with a nice engine,, without wheels? oh wheels are the most important!! what about the computer? oh yes,, the computer is the soul of the car!! it could have all the other parts and still roll,,, but it cant check its own systems without the computer etc. etc..,,



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 10:49 PM
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Originally posted by gwynnhwyfar

Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne

Originally posted by gwynnhwyfar

Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne
reply to post by gwynnhwyfar
 


Very interesting. Thank you for sharing.

But I must say, during that process, your body was supporting your mind the whole time, meaning you were still your body. This is the difficulty I'm having with this problem.


LOL - I'm not sure how much support my body was providing my mind at that time, since it was fully engaged in delivering a baby.


I think I know what you mean, though. My body was clearly present and functioning as expected. Have you ever read the "Life After Life" book? I think the author is named Raymond Moody. Anyway, he researched and collected a lot of stories of people who were pronounced clinically dead, sometimes for long periods of time, and who eventually revived and relayed their tales. Some of them were able to describe things they could not possibly have seen, such as a pair of shoes that had been tossed up on the roof of the hospital, or even what a room looked like in a different country, and the descriptions turned out to be verified as accurate.

Also, what do you think of the "phantom limbs" of soldiers who have lost an arm or a leg, but still "feel" the limb?


Phantom Limbs are interesting. We do remember things, emotions, feelings, sensations and experiences. But there's no reason to believe that the sensation is coming from a ghost-like version of a past limb.

So, in your opinion, is the sensation coming from "mind" or "body"?


We can only speculate on this, but I'd guess it stems from the memory of once having a leg there. I'd have to answer: from both mind and body.



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 10:54 PM
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Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne


I like your interpretation. Except I think you're still unnecessarily abstracting a human into body and mind. How can the mind break barriers without the body to break those barriers? In order to articulate, express, hear, understand, study, grasp or conceptualize, a mind needs the body. They are not separate. Can a man invent a wheel without a body? Can a man learn or experiment without a body?


ok you are right you are right,..,,.,.

but a fish and a rabbit have minds,,, cavemen had minds,,,.,.,. what separates us from cavemen?

I know it is a package and one couldn't be without the other,,,, but i do think there is a distinction,,, you also cant say which one is more important or valuable,,, because like i said,, you cant separate them,,,.,. its like asking whats the most important part of a car? the engine of course!! whats a car with a nice engine,, without wheels? oh wheels are the most important!! what about the computer? oh yes,, the computer is the soul of the car!! it could have all the other parts and still roll,,, but it cant check its own systems without the computer etc. etc..,,



There cannot be a distinction if they can't be separated. There's no boundary between them.



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 11:01 PM
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reply to post by TheSubversiveOne
 





Why do you think the mind is somehow separate from the body?


You'd be interested in the the early research of Yoram Hazony and other biblical literary analysts of the Hebrew Scriptures.

He argues in 'philosophy of the Hebrew scriptures' that the modern era is based on a completely erroneous separation of things into a reason and revelation dichotomy. St Augustine established this bias. It put things into one of two possible categories; 'revelation' i.e. spiritual knowledge, which can be the only metric of truth, against 'reason'.

Hazony really makes his point with the analysis of the Biblical Hebrew word דבר Davar. Davar mostly appears in the Bible to mean 'things', but it appears also quite often as "word", and some times, as 'thought'. This conflating of things, words and thoughts into the same word has many interesting philosophical implications. It means that physical things, words (or things spoken), as well as thoughts, are essentially bound up in the same reality: in objective existence. It's in objective existence, in physicality, that one is able to utter some truth in his 'words', but the words themselves, as well as thoughts (speech in the mind) are predicated on the validity of the things themselves.

It's an incredibly new and quite interesting philosophical approach towards truth. Instead of the dichotomy posited in Hellenism and Christianity of a fundamental separation between physicality and consciousness, and making the latter the realm where truth 'lives' in some abstracted, 'archetypal' state, leaving the physical as nothing more than a 'screen' of illusion which only incidentally acts, the Hebrew Bible establishes truth based on physical things.

The former discussion was about truth, and how truth is found. Hazony and the Hebrew Bible says truth is found in physical, objective facts of experience. This opposes the pagan bias against the physical world, towards a distrust of the world, and ultimately, 'putting all it's egg's in a purely abstract, spiritual philosophy that often has nothing whatsoever to do with physicality. A good example is the Vedanta of Hinduism, and Buddhism, and Taoism, and Gnosticism, which takes its premise from abstracting from the world, as opposed to learning from the world in terms of experience.

It thus goes without saying that the Christians completely distorted the original theology and philosophy of the Hebrews. But, very interesting work is being done to resurrect this ancient philosophy.

What I especially find fascinating about this research is it's consonance with Viktor Frankls own discoveries in logotherapy. Frankl pretty much showed how life, existence, and meaning, all takes place through self transcendence, in that one loses oneself in the OBJECT of ones thought, in which one discovers meaning through the OBJECT of ones belief. In short, living entails responding, which means, a responsibility to each unique moment to act according to your highest value. Each moment is a brand new chance to do something new, and each moment lives on in eternity as a special creation of a completely unique individual.

The logotherapy of Frankl is tremendously in sync with the metaphysics of the Hebrew scriptures. The scriptures emphasizes this world because it is this world which challenges us in the ways that we need to be challenged. And each experience challenges us to take responsibility for ourselves, to act according to the essence of our values. Instead of the mere effect - pleasure seeking, or some other archetypal dynamic - being divinized, as Jung does with his theory of archetypes, Frankl peers beneath the mechanistic approach and sees living in terms of the self transcendence towards another object.
edit on 14-10-2012 by dontreally because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 11:38 PM
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Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne


I like your interpretation. Except I think you're still unnecessarily abstracting a human into body and mind. How can the mind break barriers without the body to break those barriers? In order to articulate, express, hear, understand, study, grasp or conceptualize, a mind needs the body. They are not separate. Can a man invent a wheel without a body? Can a man learn or experiment without a body?


ok you are right you are right,..,,.,.

but a fish and a rabbit have minds,,, cavemen had minds,,,.,.,. what separates us from cavemen?

I know it is a package and one couldn't be without the other,,,, but i do think there is a distinction,,, you also cant say which one is more important or valuable,,, because like i said,, you cant separate them,,,.,. its like asking whats the most important part of a car? the engine of course!! whats a car with a nice engine,, without wheels? oh wheels are the most important!! what about the computer? oh yes,, the computer is the soul of the car!! it could have all the other parts and still roll,,, but it cant check its own systems without the computer etc. etc..,,



There cannot be a distinction if they can't be separated. There's no boundary between them.


but there is an obvious distinction,,, the human is made up of trillions of different parts, grouping to execute complex tasks to make the human possible.... the mind is certainly distinct from the the fingers,,, which are both distinct from an atom of a fingernail.,,..,

just as a humans mind what it can do is distinct from a butterflys....

people are interested/enchanted by the mind,, because it is the part of you that lets you know you exists,, its who you are,,, its who you hang with every second,,, its who you are speaking too when you speak to another,,, you are in charge of ordering your imagination,, and comprhending your information,,, its the mind that is choosing which letter and word to type after one another,, of course everything needs everything,,,i need my fingers to type.,.,so this comes down to what good would a purely mental entity be,, a brain or computer that could think endlessly,, but never move, or interact with an external reality,,, now we are getting into deep territory,,, close to the reason why reality exists i think,.,, and close to peoples believes of a spiritual side.,,.the spirtual world people seek and hope for,, is a purely mental world,,,its a dream world,, its imagination,,,its the greatest potential of the mind,,, its what the dreamer would create,, if material was not an issue,, if physical work wasnt so real and difficult,.,,. if we can have all our friends and family and great ones around in a dream forever and ever,, just doing whatever we could imagine day by day,, timeless moment by timeless moment,.,,. in this physical reality,, or maybe in any,,, there are intrinsic rules and laws,, proportions,, limits,,, logic,, things have to make sense,,, you cant teleport somewhere right now,,, or pop a mansion into existence,,, if all that existed were minds,,, i dont see why you wouldnt be able to though,,, this leads into virtual reality,,, or any reality in general,,,



posted on Oct, 15 2012 @ 04:34 AM
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The mind and the body are not separate.
The mind is what fears and this fear is stored in the body. Look at people, look at the shape of them. What goes on in the mind shows in the body. Bodies are full of tension and comes from what is being believed by the mind.
Check out Alexander Lowen who developed bioenergetic analysis, a form of mind-body psychotherapy.



posted on Oct, 15 2012 @ 10:22 AM
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Even though you only asked for our own thoughts I thought I would share this.

I'm a history major going through community college before university yada yada yada

anyway I was learning about the Buddhist perspective on Atman. Atman is, in Hinduism, the word meaning the soul. In Buddhism they believe that there is no Atman.

The Pratītyasamutpāda explains this in more detail.

For instance

If you look for the self within the body, you can not find it there, since the body itself is dependent upon its parts.If you look for the self within the mind, you can not find it there, since the mind can only be said to exist in relation to external objects; therefore the mind is also dependent upon causes and conditions outside of itself.Hence, since the self can not be said to exist within the body or mind, it is said to be "empty of inherent existence".


Like I said it is not my own words, but I think it will help in your journey. Best wishes
~Ghost



posted on Oct, 15 2012 @ 11:42 AM
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Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne

Seeing as we cannot put a movie up on a movie screen without a running projector, wouldn't this also imply that we cannot put up a thought in our minds without a fully functional body? I propose that it is the body that creates the mind, and not the mind that creates the body.


When you don't run the movie (the mind) through a projector (the body), the movie is still there, as in the film that contains it. The projector (the body) is also there when the movie (the mind) is not run through it.

So the mind and the body are separate things, and why would one have to create the other? Like with gravity and light: does one create the other? In my view, they just exist.



posted on Oct, 15 2012 @ 11:46 AM
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reply to post by TheSubversiveOne
 



Why do you think the mind is somehow separate from the body?


You don't want to hear scripture or philosophy, and yet you want an answer. That's like telling someone, "Describe to a blind man the color red without using words."

Derp!

Anyway, the mind consists of energy that is not physically bound. The body consists of energy that is physically bound. It's the difference between lightning and a battery.



posted on Oct, 15 2012 @ 11:55 AM
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Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne
reply to post by gwynnhwyfar
 


Very interesting. Thank you for sharing.

But I must say, during that process, your body was supporting your mind the whole time, meaning you were still your body. This is the difficulty I'm having with this problem.



You are stuck in the idea that the body holds the mind.

Think of the body as a radio (receiver/transmitter) and your mind as the signal being received and transmitted. Every body is different and will receive a different signal. Just as your radio will receive a different signal when you change it by turning the dial.




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