Christians: What's your relationship with the dead?

reply to post by FlyersFan


did you miss this post

Your "BEST EXAMPLE ... Revelation 6:9-10"
Revelation is a prophetic book using symbolic language. This particular passage is referring to God's concern for the justice and vindication the martyrs seek for the persecution they have and they will suffer for their faithfulness to the gospel. Verse 11 states that they must rest until their fellow brothers in Christ have been made complete (have perfected their character by remaining faithful to Jesus under persecuting times) which is a reference to that they must remain 'resting' until the end of the Time of Trouble/Tribulation period is over (which hasn't even started yet).

References used:
- "Secrets of Revelation - The Apocalypse Through Hebrew Eyes" by Dr. Jacques B. Doukhan, p.64-66
- "Revelation of Jesus Christ - Commentary on the Book of Revelation Second Edition" by Dr. Ranko Stefanovic p. 244-248

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How about arguing against the points I already made to dismiss your verses than merely repeating yourself

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

The Waldensians for instance (Seventh-Day Adventist see themselves more as the spiritual ancestor of these people and those that predated them than merely an offshoot from the protestant reformation. We see our stream of thought as getting back to the roots of the original Christians.)

SDA stream of thought is farther away from the first generation christian roots than you think. You guys adhere to the exoteric law of the flesh and always seem to ignore the second covenant sealed at the cross and you also ignore the Council of Jerusalem if it doesn't favor the agenda you're trying to push.

One of the very things that pissed Jesus off was the pharisees (law givers) washing the outside of the dish but never washing the inside of it.

Mainly the only thing you have to pick at against other protestant churches is we gather on sunday and not saturday, and then you try to use circular logic about sunday worship being the mark of the Beast, when saturday is no different. The sabbath requirement was fulfilled at the cross. Jesus bought us a perpetual state of spiritual rest from our fleshly labors for rightousness and now everyday is to be kept holy to him and that is what his ordeal on the cross was. His mercy is not giving us what we deserve which is death, his grace is giving us what we did not deserve and free of our own merits, which is eternal life and rest for our weary souls.

Pesach (Passover) and Shavuot (Pentecost) have already been fulfilled. Next in line is Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur and finally Sukkot. .

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

According to this from your own church, you are now excommunicated and deserving of damnation and destruction...'let him be anathema'

Actually, it seems to me that according to you, and your church, they are now excommunicated and deserving of damnation and destruction. In fact, that seems to be your main point here...
that anyone who feels they have a relationship with a deceased loved one is going straight to hell. Right?

What is your real objective here, Jesuit Garlic? To warn people to avoid their deceased loved ones? To condemn Catholics? To make yourself feel righteous and triumphant?

In my opinion, a bereft person who refuses to even acknowledge the memory and lingering love for (and from) the deceased will not properly heal from the natural grief of such a loss. For you (or anyone!) to "forbid" it is evidence of your wish to "control" others. So what if some dark-age council decided something forever ago?

You would begrudge the grieving their comfort, I guess, rather than encouraging resolution of the profound loss that it is -- one of life's most painful crises? I really don't think Christ would have condoned that. Perhaps you have not lost anyone you were close to. For my part, if I didn't have ongoing "inner dialogue" with my dad, and he did not appear from time to time in my dreams as the young, healthy, strong man he was in his prime, I would be devastated. And if my church told me to consider these dreams and thoughts "demonic", I'd tell them to take a flying leap.

The more I read about your faith and of your opinions, the more you appear to be quite on the edge of sanity. You might want to take a step back for a couple of weeks or so, and practice some self-reflection. All this obsession with the ancient writings of superstitious men (and in your case, women) is bordering on a quite unbalanced world-view.

And, for what it's worth, I dare say that if you decide to look beyond your narrow and stern interpretations of something that is nebulous, and very much subject to personal interpretation, you won't be struck dead by lightning and then go to hell.

For the purposes of the OP, you have answered the question, that people who have relationships with the dead are if not demonic themselves, they are at least condemned sinners with no hope of recovery. Got it.

Considering the OP has long since bowed out of this violently derailed thread, perhaps it's time for a few deep breaths. Your audience here is not especially supportive of your claims, anyway, nor do they show any indication of accepting your words as superior to the things they believe and know to be true.

reply to post by adjensen

I wasn't aware that Tobias was written by Christians.

Is this another straw man argument (like arguing against some random guy talking about the Jesuits controlling all those different companies when I made no such statement rather than my point was them coming into my churches (Adventist) and schools of education). I don't recall saying that Tobias was written 'by' Christian's. I recall strongly implying that it was written 'for' Christian's to take as it is written those subscribing to Catholic authority.

Note that it doesn't say whom it delivers from death

Please fill me in on those it is referring to then

what do I care about what the author of Tobias is suggesting to other Jews?

I find it very interesting that so many people here identify as Catholic, are happy to let them say what is a 'sacred tradition' for them to follow yet when it is convenient for them, dump the authoritative words of that same system of teaching on its arse.

I supported the concept of purgatory when I was a Protestant (as do other Protestants,) without the necessary inclusion of 2 Maccabees.

That's fine....let's see what the author's of the doctrine of purgatory have to say about whether it is founded on a scriptural basis though.

“Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday...Now the Church...instituted, by God’s authority, Sunday as the day of worship. This same Church, by the same divine authority, taught the doctrine of Purgatory long before the Bible was made. We have, therefore, the same authority for Purgatory as we have for Sunday.” — Martin J. Scott, Things Catholics Are Asked About, 1927 edition, p. 136.

So the Catholic church is very open that nowhere in the Bible is the doctrine of purgatory able to be supported....you can hold on to your position if you wish but it is a view that the Church says only comes from the sense the they can dictate what people should believe because God has given them authority to do so.

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Promoting some Conspiracy theories?....how about I promote some conspiracy facts for you in my next post

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
I recall strongly implying that it was written 'for' Christian's to take as it is written those subscribing to Catholic authority.

So, your claim is that the author of Tobias wasn't writing to Jews, but was writing to a group of believers in something that didn't exist at the time, and he likely would have disagreed with? That doesn't make any sense.

Note that it doesn't say whom it delivers from death

Please fill me in on those it is referring to then

Who knows? It could be read either way -- being charitable saves you from spiritual death, because you are following the Law, or it saves someone else from physical death, because you're giving them food or shelter or something.

what do I care about what the author of Tobias is suggesting to other Jews?

I find it very interesting that so many people here identify as Catholic, are happy to let them say what is a 'sacred tradition' for them to follow yet when it is convenient for them, dump the authoritative words of that same system of teaching on its arse.

Yes, hooray for you and your "interests", but you're not going to find me claiming that we are saved through the Law. I'm not "dumping anything", I'm saying that it was written for another purpose, another people, in another time.

So the Catholic church is very open that nowhere in the Bible is the doctrine of purgatory able to be supported...

Not true.

Some Fundamentalists also charge, as though it actually proved something, "The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture." This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory.

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians. (Source)

Promoting some Conspiracy theories?....how about I promote some conspiracy facts for you in my next post

Well, let's hope that they're less ridiculous than what you've posted thus far. And anything that comes out of the mouth of your buddy Jack Chick or his lying stooge Alberto Rivera would fall into that category.

What the?? WHO quoted Alberto Rivera??? He's a known fraud.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


He posted this a couple of pages back:

I can provide you with the video testimonials of people that support the claim...I doubt you will find the info from a non-sda source (we clean up our own messes) other than Alberto Rivera but I have all the official identity documentation and photographs to prove he was an ex-Jesuit and testimonies of support from Catholic priests and nuns that also vouch for him, as well can back up multiple things that he was said about the Jesuit dealings from numerous other credible sources as well.

(Original post)

reply to post by JesuitGarlic


That's YOUR interpretation of a scripture passage that is pretty darn clear about people being aware of what is happening on earth and that they are asking (praying) to God for a certain outcome. If YOU choose to think it is all symbolic of something else .. that's your business. The majority of Christians do not share your interpretation.

As i said .. the bible contradicts itself on this subject.
And it doesn't house all knowledge about this subject either.
It even says so.

If YOU want to think the bible is the 'end all' for information on the subject, even though it says it isn't, then go right ahead. There is no proof that the bible contains all the knowledge on this subject. There is no proof that your interpretation is better or worse than anyone elses. Believe what you want. I'll believe what I want .. based on my own personal experiences and from what I have decided is correct from amongst the major world religions.

I happen to believe that the Catholic 'communion of saints' is probably correct and it fits my experiences very well. Everyone prays for each other .. be they here on earth or in heaven .. we all are connected. That's my belief. If you dont' want to believe that ... that's your business. I don't care. Whatever.

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
I find it very interesting that so many people here identify as Catholic,

Who EXACTLY are the 'so many people' who identify themselves as Catholic on this thread?

That's fine....let's see what the author's of the doctrine of purgatory have to say about whether it is founded on a scriptural basis though.

That's fine .. let's see what the Catholic Church ITSELF officially says about purgatory ...

Catechism of the Catholic Church

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

The official document of the Roman Catholic Church says that the tradition of Purgatory comes from interpretation of certain TEXTS OF SCRIPTURE which speak of a cleansing fire. Not just one text ..

Catholic Answers

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians

You believe and interpret what you want and others will interpret as they think best.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
What the?? WHO quoted Alberto Rivera??? He's a known fraud.

JesuitGarlic .. who probably got it from that Jack Chick crap he defends.
Jack Chick uses that nutter (Alberto Rivera) in his little hate filled comic books.

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

He posted this a couple of pages back:

I can provide you with the video testimonials of people that support the claim...I doubt you will find the info from a non-sda source (we clean up our own messes) other than Alberto Rivera but I have all the official identity documentation and photographs to prove he was an ex-Jesuit and testimonies of support from Catholic priests and nuns that also vouch for him, as well can back up multiple things that he was said about the Jesuit dealings from numerous other credible sources as well.

(Original post)

Astounding. I am at a loss for words on that one.

reply to post by FlyersFan


I recently read The Tibetan Book of the Dead,
which is a "handbook" for gurus attending at a deathbed. The Tibetan Buddhists believe the soul travels through a sort of "fire", including demons and horrors. The guru assists, telling (out loud) the deceased (or dying) that they mustn't be afraid, that it is part of the residue of their actions while on earth, and created by THEY THEMSELVES.

The guru helps the dying/dead navigate the halls of the immediate circumstances in which the soul finds itself, and encourages him/her (the soul) to carry on, to move forward. To remember that these are lessons, not going to hurt them really, that they ARE SAFE, and will, once they have run this gauntlet, be reborn to another mother in another place and time. Like a remote "mission-control"...a good example of recent times would be when Felix jumped out of that capsule 23 miles above earth. (Wow - I nearly had a heart attack watching that!)

The guru prays that the deceased will find good purchase, and assures him/her that they will then find themselves with a chance to try again. Hopefully in a peaceful, prosperous family, but if not, then, well, That's Karma! You're going back anyway (presumably until the time you don't have the halls of scary demons to deal with at the moment of death and immediately afterward).

This sounds to me a lot like the catechism you extexted here:

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians

So, in effect, it wasn't just Jews and Christians, but the Buddhists as well. Pretty universal, seems to me.

Have you all read it? It's very insightful. Here's the link: Tibetan Book of the Dead, which includes editorial/explanatory descriptions for the Western reader in order to help them understand.

Highly recommend it.

Originally posted by wildtimes
.Have you all read it?

I'm glad you brought that up. I actually have a copy someplace in the house. I read it a long while back. I totally forgot about it. You are so right .... a lot of the deep spiritual stuff that the Catholics believe is similar to what the Buddhists believe. If you say that to a 'good' Catholic they'd have a fit and say 'no'. But it's true.

reply to post by silo13


No, your past family members go to be with the Lord. They do not watch over you, they have no need too. They are in rest waiting the Lord's super, and then the millennial reign where we will rule with Christ and minister to the exploding human population.

If you are seeing a family member, or think you are, it is most likely a Familiar spirit or a spirit who is in constant communication with one of your familiar spirits ( demons who are assigned over you, all of your life).

( Just realized how old this thread was, stupid me).

Originally posted by milkyway12
reply to post by silo13

 

No, your past family members go to be with the Lord. They do not watch over you, they have no need too.

How can it be that those who are promised eternal life would be locked up and kept away from those that they love and care about?

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth , and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh , and whither it goeth : so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

I would be in hell if I was separated from those that I loved the most, because of physical death. Even more so if I believed that we are abandoned by our loved ones once their physical bodies are gone, and we are left alone, spiritually.

I refuse to believe that only demons and Jesus are capable of spiritual communication.

reply to post by adjensen


what I will do is use your article posted against Alberto Rivera as the framework of discussion in a newly created thread probably in the 'Conspiracies in religion' section (and I will come back to this thread to clear up as many loose ends as possible at a later time, which might not be for a couple of weeks). I don't know whether the thread will be posted in either a couple of days time or a week, it depends on how much content I wish to post up in the initial posts versus how much I wish to include as the discussion progresses.

I will be gathering together many quotes from all about (historians, catholic priest's, newspapers ect), as well as using many books in my possession like:
- 'The Vatican, the Nazis and the Swiss Banks' (based on de-classified US military evidence from CIA and NATO achieves and written by a Roman Catholic)
- 'The Pope against the Jews' (information from the Vatican Archives)
- 'Vatican Ratline: The Vatican, the Nazis, and the New World Order' (by an ex-illuminati sex slave...I will be using many ex-Illuminati sources throughout that thread)
- Vatican Assassins 3rd edition - by Eric Jon Phelps (probably the current best researcher on the Jesuits)
and many many other sources.

We will see which of Alberto's statements can be backed up and which can't and how trustworthy the accusations against Alberto from Billy Graham's (who supposedly has no allegiance to the pope) 'Christianity Today' really is.

Please note, I have been reading these kinds of material for maybe 5 years (in an increasing capacity)...I have come across a few of these infamous Jack Chicks tract only in the past month (I live in Australia and there is basically no recognition of Jack Chick amongst people here at all). I am not out to defend Jack Chick, I barely know of him, I disagree with his doctrine of eternal hell and don't like the way he uses it in the couple of tracts that I have read. I am interested though in the content of what he has to say, where he gets it from, whether it can be backed up by closes sources than just his own word.

The information I will be presenting will come from many 1st hand and alternate sources of information that back up many serious claims. The idea that my view is founded on some comics from Jack Chick will be shown to be ridiculous....

It is about time I did a good thread on the second angels message of revelation 14...so be it

P.S You might want an empty stomach when reading the thread as you will see graphic pictures in the opening posts of Croatian Catholics who have smashed in the heads of orthodox serbs or cut of their heads as they were threatened to either convert to Roman Catholicism or die (occurring between the 1940s- early 90's), actions applauded by the papacy and Catholic newspapers (we will also here stories of much other disgusting filthy behavior throughout history...expect it)

reply to post by JesuitGarlic


I suggest you start a separate thread on all that anti-Catholic stuff that you are obsessed with. It's totally off topic from 'What's your relationship with the dead.'. In the mean time .. I'll be praying for you. :shk:

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by JesuitGarlic

 

I suggest you start a separate thread on all that anti-Catholic stuff that you are obsessed with. It's totally off topic from 'What's your relationship with the dead.'. In the mean time .. I'll be praying for you. :shk:

If history is anti-Vatican then so be it...would people rather want to know the truth or live in a delusion thinking they do but by doing so, unwittingly promote an anti-human system that is killing others and helping to build a prison around themselves. Sometimes people need tough love too

I am more than happy to be corrected on any historical inaccuracies in that thread....so feel free to provide your knowledge of it.....as ignorance is dangerous to oneself and those around them.

Pray that the information reflects accuracy and that it will bring God glory, as the content concerning much of the 2nd Angels message gets presented

reply to post by wildtimes


Show me one place in the bible where you can pray the dead into heaven and i'll eat that page. You can't and you won't find it. Orthodox jews are Talmudic Jews not Torah Jews and nowhere in the Torah does it say you can pray the dead into heaven either. Praying for the dead is Mithraism. The Talmud was compiled 200 years after the destruction of the Temple and it was to give jews hope after their excommunication. They turned to lies instead of searching out the why the Temple had been destroyed and then seeking to atone for their sin. The Kolmidre prayer rescinds any covenants or oaths and promises they made, effectively allowing them to lie, cheat an steal and it not be a sin, that's about as far from Torah as you can get.

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
P.S You might want an empty stomach when reading the thread as you will see graphic pictures in the opening posts of Croatian Catholics who have smashed in the heads of orthodox serbs or cut of their heads as they were threatened to either convert to Roman Catholicism or die (occurring between the 1940s- early 90's), actions applauded by the papacy and Catholic newspapers (we will also here stories of much other disgusting filthy behavior throughout history...expect it)

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Otherwise, feel free to present whatever "evidence" you think you have (in another thread, I agree with FlyersFan that it is pointless to keep derailing this one) but recognize that you will change no one's mind, because people have long since debunked the whole Alberto Rivera mythology, with solid evidence that an impartial person would agree demonstrates that he made the whole thing up for personal gain. The only ones who buy into it are those who already hate the Catholics, so accept it all, hook, line and sinker.

What you don't seem to understand is that you have demonstrated that your beliefs about the Jesuits and Catholics are rooted in hatred and delusion, so unless someone else is so predisposed, nothing you say will convince anyone of anything. You are, literally, your own worst enemy, by your own testimony.

Until you stop your irrational hatred and open your eyes to reality, you are on a dark road to damnation, led by those cartoonish demons that Jack Chick populates his comic books with.